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US Politics: Manchin Shin Drinks the Blood and Cracks the Bone


A True Kaniggit

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55 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Essentially, I’m saying that any strategy based around voting is bound to fail because Republicans are not going to allow it. Democrats need to start reckoning with that fact.

So - what do YOU propose?

I agree somewhat - voting cannot be the only strategy. Though it must be some of the strategy or the only other option is violence. 

I haven't honestly given a ton of thought to it, but what I would likely start doing is organizing collections of states to work in unison towards certain goals. Climate change is a big one, probably the biggest. Continue those regional and intraregional alliances and work on all sorts of regulations in that vein. Use soft power and boycotts of companies that support policies you don't want. Encourage strikes. Block all outside energy that isn't clean. 

Or consider leaving the US and going somewhere safer and saner.

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18 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is just a sophomoric perspective.  It'd be much harder for Manchin to vote against extending the CTC, or any other program, than it is from blocking it (or in the CTC's case allowing it to expire without a vote).  In fact, Manchin himself identified this as the reasoning for his opposition - once policies are enacted it's very difficult to, and Congress seldom does, abolish them.

More importantly, if you think the Democratic party would be all hunky dory if the only programs in Biden's policy agenda he pursued from the get-go were something like the CTC and ACA subsidies, you're off your rocker.  The same people that are pissed off now would be even more pissed off, and there'd be even more people pissed off. 

Your argument here seems be based on your personal policy preferences, because it's not based on any objective measure of advancing one's policy agenda - and it's certainly not, nor ever would have, even approach the same level of a political victory.

Manchin wouldn't need to vote against extending the CTC, or anything else, because the votes just won't come up. The odds of the expiration occurring at a time when the Democrats have a trifecta are low, and Republicans will happily let it or anything else expire. And even if Democrats do have the trifecta, they've shown over and over that they'll let programs expire due to sheer incompetence https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57188 

And I'm not saying things would be hunky dory if Democrats were more modest post-Georgia runoffs. But I think they would be in a better place then they are now, and with people more fired up about the midterms. I'm basically making the exact same argument Rahm Emmanuel made in 2010, and he was right then and I think I'm right now. 

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9 minutes ago, Fez said:

The odds of the expiration occurring at a time when the Democrats have a trifecta are low, and Republicans will happily let it or anything else expire.

They don't need a trifecta they just need divided government.  You roll it into the budget battle, which is the only significant legislative conflict during divided government anyway.  

10 minutes ago, Fez said:

they've shown over and over that they'll let programs expire due to sheer incompetence https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57188 

I don't know why you're linking me to a list of a ton of minor programs that were defunded because they expired that only amounts to a few hundred billion dollars.  That's not the same thing - especially since about half of those programs technically expired at least a decade ago.

14 minutes ago, Fez said:

I'm basically making the exact same argument Rahm Emmanuel made in 2010, and he was right then and I think I'm right now. 

If Obama listened to Rahm Emanuel the ACA wouldn't have been passed.  He definitely was not right, and has said so himself.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

They don't need a trifecta they just need divided government.  You roll it into the budget battle, which is the only significant legislative conflict during divided government anyway.  

I don't know why you're linking me to a list of a ton of minor programs that were defunded because they expired that only amounts to a few hundred billion dollars.  That's not the same thing - especially since about half of those programs technically expired at least a decade ago.

If Obama listened to Rahm Emanuel the ACA wouldn't have been passed.  He definitely was not right, and has said so himself.

1. And then Republicans win the shutdown battle, like they did in the 2018 (not the 2019) shutdown. Whichever party is the one asking for ANYTHING in the funding battles besides literally just keeping the lights on is the one that gets blamed.

2. It's a few hundred billion in a single year, aka larger than the entire BBB. And only some of those programs are old and outdated, if you dig into it plenty are still relevant.

3. Right, the ACA wouldn't have passed, and Democrats would've been better off for it. The ACA is a perfectly fine bill; it has not remotely been worth the devastation of the last 11 years that all stems from absolute bloodbath that was the 2010 midterm.

Anyway, I'm reminded why I stopped venturing into the politics thread. Peace.

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1 minute ago, Fez said:

1. And then Republicans win the shutdown battle, like they did in the 2018 (not the 2019) shutdown.

1.  They did not 'win' the shutdown battle - which lasted a few dozen hours - in any tangible way that had to do with funding.  The GOP routinely loses actual shutdown battles.

2.  It's a few hundred billion dollars from a federal budget of $6.8 trillion in 2021.  And again, it's based on authorizations from hundreds of laws.  These are comparatively very minor programs, which is it's not the same thing.

3.  You and I just have fundamentally different conceptions of politics if you think the Democrats would be better off if they didn't pass the ACA.  Acting like they still wouldn't have gotten their asses kicked in 2010 if they didn't pass it is a long debunked myth.

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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And that, ladies and gentleman, is why the narcissism of small differences is going to keep liberals at each other's throats while Republicans keep their eyes on the prize. 

:rolleyes:  Acknowledging the reality that passing one or two programs is a huge loss compared to the reconciliation bill has nothing to do with any of that.  I'm all for putting a positive spin on things but that just comes off as at least out of touch.

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14 minutes ago, DMC said:

:rolleyes:  Acknowledging the reality that passing one or two programs is a huge loss compared to the reconciliation bill has nothing to do with any of that.  I'm all for putting a positive spin on things but that just comes off as at least out of touch.

You missed the point. You and Fez agree on >95% of the issues, and yet you want to fight about the minor details, much like you and I do or all three of us do with Kal. This isn't going to end well if liberals can't stop bitching and sniping one another over this misplaced sense of needing to feel morally and/or technically right.

The left as a whole needs to pause and reflect what's gotten us here, why it's not working and provide actual solutions going forward. We cannot exist in this same cycle of self-destruction and expect to come out better from it, all while fascism is barking at the door just waiting for more air to be breathed into it. 

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

You missed the point. You and Fez agree on >95% of the issues, and yet you want to fight about the minor details, much like you and I do or all three of us do with Kal.

I argue politics on an internet forum because I've enjoyed arguing politics on an internet forum for over 20 years now.  I don't think that's applicable to the actual intraparty battle going on.  Especially because, in terms of the real world intraparty battle that's happened today, it's just Manchin vs. the entire party - and I'm pretty sure all four of the people you mentioned agree on that.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

I argue politics on an internet forum because I've enjoyed arguing politics on an internet forum for over 20 years now.  I don't think that's applicable to the actual intraparty battle going on.  Especially because, in terms of the real world intraparty battle that's happened today, it's just Manchin vs. the entire party - and I'm pretty sure all four of the people you mentioned agree on that.

Because all four of us at the end of the day are moderates and institutionalists by this internet forum's standard, and look how we behave. Idk if the four of us could solve an escape room, just like I don't think the leaders of the party could either. 

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Because all four of us at the end of the day are moderates and institutionalists by this internet forum's standard, and look how we behave. Idk if the four of us could solve an escape room, just like I don't think the leaders of the party could either. 

Well my only response to that is then maybe we should all lay off yelling at the leadership too much.

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7 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well my only response to that is then maybe we should all lay off yelling at the leadership too much.

Not sure that's going to help given their obvious failures. New blood is long overdue, but Democrats, the center and the left and everything in between all need to engage in a rapprochement, or face the consequences of lacking unity which is welcoming fascism to walk into power. That's not something I can accept, and why should are relatively minor disagreements prevent unity?  

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

New blood is long overdue, but Democrats, the center and the left and everything in between all need to engage in a rapprochement, or face the consequences of lacking unity which is welcoming fascism to walk into power. That's not something I can accept, and why should are relatively minor disagreements prevent unity?

I think you're overreacting to the intraparty rifts in the Democratic party.  First, it's always at loggerheads due the nature of its composition.  Second, the party in control inherently has more intraparty squabbles compared to the party out of control.  But more importantly, again, I'm perfectly capable of having minor disagreements on an internet forum while promoting unity in practice.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think you're overreacting to the intraparty rifts in the Democratic party.  First, it's always at loggerheads due the nature of its composition.  Second, the party in control inherently has more intraparty squabbles compared to the party out of control.  But more importantly, again, I'm perfectly capable of having minor disagreements on an internet forum while promoting unity in practice.

I don't think I'm overreacting nor am I basing this on the interactions of an internet forum. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Because all four of us at the end of the day are moderates and institutionalists by this internet forum's standard, and look how we behave. Idk if the four of us could solve an escape room, just like I don't think the leaders of the party could either. 

I fucking rule at escape rooms and will carry you useless douchecanoes on my back

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9 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

I fucking rule at escape rooms and will carry you useless douchecanoes on my back

All my smart friends say the same thing. Performance has not matched the tall talk.

Also, since you're going to lose our little side bet anyways, skip the title and just make your next iteration KalBane, and put a little mask on your avi.  Tots am not watching the movie right now while having the Bucs complete failure on the second TV on mute...

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