Jump to content

US Politics: Manchin Shin Drinks the Blood and Cracks the Bone


A True Kaniggit

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Yeah, that's certainly a possibility.  But with global warming stuff, even a temporary pause on shit helps, Biden hasn't done anything there in a meaningful way.  Student loan debt too, even if it's challenged on court, can you really unring that bell?  Who is going to pay a debt that was legally absolved?  Not me.  

But in the meantime it seems completely foolish not to use every option your opposition has available until it's not possible. 

Agree 100% -- I can't imagine a way to unring that bell that does involve a lot of litigation and going after individuals with debt collectors.

Worst case scenario, i.e. he hasn't done anything and a GQP creature wins in Nov '24, forgive it all and walk away. Just swipe that Amex Platinum and wipe away the debts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

This is all true, but why is this the one issue that needs to be completely solved?  Why can't this one be tackled bit by bit, instead of in one fell swoop?  Or are you just pointing that out?  

Well it probably will have to be solved bit by bit, but there needs to be a road map in place to fully solve it to the best of our ability. Otherwise we'll just have to keep addressing the same problem. If you give people a lot of debt relief and then don't do a ton else, we're just going to have the same problem again in 5-10 years.

Quote

eta: the point of free community college isn't to make a Bachelor's degree cheaper.  It's to give people a free two year degree.  Those are related but totally distinct things.  And the fact that a free two year degree doesn't solve the ridiculous cost of a four year degree shouldn't be used to argue against it. 

It is to some extent. A lot of guidance counselors will tell you that it's smart to do 1-2 years of CC, then 1-2 years at a smaller state school before transferring to a bigger state school to get your four year degree. But that aside, while providing free CC is a good thing overall, it still doesn't address why most people have crippling debt. That comes from the bloated cost of a four year degree and grad school. Just as an example, it was shocking to hear the Obamas say that they were still paying off their law school debts when BO was a Senator and MO was a corporate lawyer. There's something wildly off about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Random good stuff we're not allowed to have:

There should be national legislation to require all employee salaries to be publicly available.  Or at least a available in house to other employees.

This doesn't affect me at all directly, but it seems like a no-brainer.  I dunno.  Maybe the general population hates themselves enough that this is a nonstarter.

If you can stop people from developing petty jealousies and envy against each other, go for it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Week said:

Agree 100% -- I can't imagine a way to unring that bell that does involve a lot of litigation and going after individuals with debt collectors.

Worst case scenario, i.e. he hasn't done anything and a GQP creature wins in Nov '24, forgive it all and walk away. Just swipe that Amex Platinum and wipe away the debts.

For sure.  I just .. don't think Biden really cares enouh

 

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well it probably will have to be solved bit by bit, but there needs to be a road map in place to fully solve it to the best of our ability. Otherwise we'll just have to keep addressing the same problem. If you give people a lot of debt relief and then don't do a ton else, we're just going to have the same problem again in 5-10 years.

It is to some extent. A lot of guidance counselors will tell you that it's smart to do 1-2 years of CC, then 1-2 years at a smaller state school before transferring to a bigger state school to get your four year degree. But that aside, while providing free CC is a good thing overall, it still doesn't address why most people have crippling debt. That comes from the bloated cost of a four year degree and grad school. Just as an example, it was shocking to hear the Obamas say that they were still paying off their law school debts when BO was a Senator and MO was a corporate lawyer. There's something wildly off about that.

On the community college thing, you are 100% missing the point.  It's training people to be electricians and mechanics and home health aides too.  For a lot of people for whom a $800 semester payment is as impossible as a $20k loan.  And not all cc degrees are part of a 4 year track.  

Was the ACA bad?  it drove up the cost of healthcare.  It didn't solve the healthcare problem here.  It did fix preexisting conditions, and lifetime limits, and some other things.  Was it worthless?  I thought you were a pragmatist?

Re:debt relief - having the same problem in 10 years is exactly what we do with everything else.  It's better than nothing.  Do that and maybe there will be some political will to tackle the rest of the beast.  It's not like there are any other policy initiatives out there on this front.  You say we need a road map.  Who has one and what is it?  Otherwise shut tf up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

If you can stop people from developing petty jealousies and envy against each other, go for it. 

that's actually not the point at all, it's to give workers some amount of solidarity and leverage on a nation with stagnated wages.

eta: I don't give a fuck if Joe has a petty jealousy against Betty as long as they are compensated the same for the same work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Lol.  Simply amazing.   Wha I'm gathering from this is that love is a disqualifier for tax deductions?

Also... dying over "once the donkeys were small enough".  

era: Like, that's the lynchpin of a business proposal lol.  Yes.

and any journalist that missed out on using "hobby horse" needs to resign.

Yes, I'm gleaning the same thing.  In my "professional" non-opinion, a prequalification for an active trade or business for an individual is that you hate it.  Seems legit.  And yeah.  Like I said, the jokes write themselves. 

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well it probably will have to be solved bit by bit, but there needs to be a road map in place to fully solve it to the best of our ability. Otherwise we'll just have to keep addressing the same problem. If you give people a lot of debt relief and then don't do a ton else, we're just going to have the same problem again in 5-10 years.

It is to some extent. A lot of guidance counselors will tell you that it's smart to do 1-2 years of CC, then 1-2 years at a smaller state school before transferring to a bigger state school to get your four year degree. But that aside, while providing free CC is a good thing overall, it still doesn't address why most people have crippling debt. That comes from the bloated cost of a four year degree and grad school. Just as an example, it was shocking to hear the Obamas say that they were still paying off their law school debts when BO was a Senator and MO was a corporate lawyer. There's something wildly off about that.

Law school is outrageously expensive.  I was incredibly  fortunate not to have debt coming out of law school.  That meant that once we got married, my husband was able to pay his off a LOT faster than otherwise - he just plowed his bonus every year into debt repayment.  Still took him about 10 years out of law school and we both had (and have) BigLaw jobs.  This is why I tell prospective law students (1) go to the very best law school you get into, unless (2) you get a free ride at a lower ranked top 25 school, but (3) not sure I recommend going to a lower ranked school at all (and definitely not if you are paying full freight and borrowing unless you REALLY have a plan).  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Yes, I'm gleaning the same thing.  In my "professional" non-opinion, a prequalification for an active trade or business for an individual is that you hate it.  Seems legit.  And yeah.  Like I said, the jokes write themselves. 

Law school is outrageously expensive.  I was incredibly  fortunate not to have debt coming out of law school.  That meant that once we got married, my husband was able to pay his off a LOT faster than otherwise - he just plowed his bonus every year into debt repayment.  Still took him about 10 years out of law school and we both had (and have) BigLaw jobs.  This is why I tell prospective law students (1) go to the very best law school you get into, unless (2) you get a free ride at a lower ranked top 25 school, but (3) not sure I recommend going to a lower ranked school at all (and definitely not if you are paying full freight and borrowing unless you REALLY have a plan).  

I am writing "i hate all of this" on my taxes in big red sharpie and calling it an ironclad defense 

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If that is within his power I say go for it.  If he legitimately believes that’s beyond his power I respect his show of discretion.

We've seen from Trump that it is within his power.  Not even Trump, but a lot of the shit Biden said he would do and can do through EO (xo's for those in the know) he is not doing.  He either doesn't care or he's a coward.  Because sticking up for a principle that doesn't practically exist is fucking idiotic and tragic and an abdication of responsibility.

edit:but he isn't even doing shit that is well within established purview.  he doesn't give a fuck about climate change or inequality or immigration or public health.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which dictatorships that came into existence since, o, lessee, since the 1920's in the last century, and newer ones in the 21st century, have not come in via elections?  To make it easier to understand, think ... Francisco, Benito and Adolf, all who came in with elections -- and Brown Shirts, etc. as handhenches, which of course orange shoggoth has as well -- PROVEN -- and others are developing even as we type, see Ron down there in orange Florida.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

On the community college thing, you are 100% missing the point.  It's training people to be electricians and mechanics and home health aides too.  For a lot of people for whom a $800 semester payment is as impossible as a $20k loan.  And not all cc degrees are part of a 4 year track.  

Yeah I'm aware of this and in those instances it's absolutely a good thing. I never said otherwise, but it's often sold as part of the solution to solving the greater debt crisis, which it is not. Free CC is going to do nothing for kids with $100k in debt who can't find work that's ever going to help them to pay that off.

Quote

Was the ACA bad?  it drove up the cost of healthcare.  It didn't solve the healthcare problem here.  It did fix preexisting conditions, and lifetime limits, and some other things.  Was it worthless?  I thought you were a pragmatist?

Re:debt relief - having the same problem in 10 years is exactly what we do with everything else.  It's better than nothing.  Do that and maybe there will be some political will to tackle the rest of the beast.  It's not like there are any other policy initiatives out there on this front.  You say we need a road map.  Who has one and what is it?  Otherwise shut tf up.

The point is nobody has one. And while slapping a bandage on a gunshot wound is better than doing nothing, it doesn't actually solve the problem. The ACA was an improvement, but it still didn't address so many of the underlying problems with the healthcare system. Likewise, a one time student debt relief is just kicking the can down the road and if you do nothing to control the costs is only going to be harder to solve when you address it again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah I'm aware of this and in those instances it's absolutely a good thing. I never said otherwise, but it's often sold as part of the solution to solving the greater debt crisis, which it is not. Free CC is going to do nothing for kids with $100k in debt who can't find work that's ever going to help them to pay that off.

The point is nobody has one. And while slapping a bandage on a gunshot wound is better than doing nothing, it doesn't actually solve the problem. The ACA was an improvement, but it still didn't address so many of the underlying problems with the healthcare system. Likewise, a one time student debt relief is just kicking the can down the road and if you do nothing to control the costs is only going to be harder to solve when you address it again.

Tell that to the 15 million or so people it would help.  Your answer is essentially if we can't save everyone, save no one.  Rad. 

No one is arguing that free community college is solving the nutty cost of a 4 year degree, so respectfully, stop attacking that straw man.  Seriously, wtf.  

Very difficult to take any of this as serious discussion if you're going to do that.  

eta: Requiring police body cams won't solve the DA / Police buddy system, so fuck it, it's not going to solve that problem.  That's the argument you're making re: free community college 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Which dictatorships that came into existence since, o, lessee, since the 1920's in the last century, and newer ones in the 21st century, have not come in via elections?  To make it easier to understand, think ... Francisco, Benito and Adolf, all who came in with elections -- and Brown Shirts, etc. as handhenches, which of course orange shoggoth has as well -- PROVEN -- and others are developing even as we type, see Ron down there in orange Florida.

Why even bother with democracy, then?  Either the process is worthless, or it yields the results you want.  Was Trump a dictator?  My answer is "no".

 

That's a completely different argument from "should Biden use the tools of the presidency to address the problems of the time"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Tell that to the 15 million or so people it would help.  Your answer is essentially if we can't save everyone, save no one.  Rad. 

No one is arguing that free community college is solving the nutty cost of a 4 year degree, so respectfully, stop attacking that straw man.  Seriously, wtf.  

Very difficult to take any of this as serious discussion if you're going to do that.  

eta: Requiring police body cams won't solve the DA / Police buddy system, so fuck it, it's not going to solve that problem.  That's the argument you're making re: free community college 

How can you say nobody is saying that and it's a straw man when the President has brought it up as a lead talking point when asked about the spiraling cost of going to college and student debt? And no, I'm not saying it's all or none, I literally said it was a good idea to make some CC and vocational training free or very cheap. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How can you say nobody is saying that and it's a straw man when the President has brought it up as a lead talking point when asked about the spiraling cost of going to college and student debt? And no, I'm not saying it's all or none, I literally said it was a good idea to make some CC and vocational training free or very cheap. 

Wait so let me get this straight.  You support fixing the high cost of a four year degree. You support free two year degrees.  Unless the president, in his unlimited bullshit, wants to somehow suggest they are related, despite reality?  Ok, bud.  

If you support it, why even bother trying to tie it into the student debt shit?

eta: until you mentioned it i had no idea Biden was saying that,.and I'm not sure why it actually effects either policy.  We could have free community college for what they randomly increase the military budget by.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Why even bother with democracy, then?  Either the process is worthless, or it yields the results you want.  Was Trump a dictator?  My answer is "no".

 

That's a completely different argument from "should Biden use the tools of the presidency to address the problems of the time"

Come on you know better than that.  It's essential there be the semblance of legality to point to.  Sheesh, this tactic is ancient.  You cannot be king-emperor-sultan etc. unless you are part of that ruling class by blood, somehow, someway, even if only by marrying someone who is part of that bloodline. Even if you take over because you have the army. Sheesh this goes back at least to the Goths and the Byzantines, you name it.

So in these days, unlike, say Stilicho's marriage, which meant his offspring could be legitimately on the throne, or Henry 7, shoring up the new Tudor dynasty's legitimacy by connecting them, fictionally, to the fictional Kind Arthur, have elections instead of marrying into emperor's blood line. How many elections can you name in the last 250 years in Latin America that are / were fronts for dictatorships?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Education Department considers extending student loan relief amid Omicron surge
“Later this week, we will be announcing whether to extend the pause further,” an Education Department spokesperson said.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/21/student-loan-relief-omicron-covid-525870

Quote

 

The Biden administration is considering extending the freeze on federal student loan payments amid the surge of Covid cases and pushback from Democrats who objected to sending student loan bills to tens of millions of Americans in the coming weeks.

Education Department officials have for months publicly insisted that student loan payments would begin on Feb. 1 when the existing pandemic relief — which was extended several times by both the Trump and Biden administrations — is set to expire.


But on Tuesday, an Education Department official indicated that the restart of student loan payments could again be postponed.


“Later this week, we will be announcing whether to extend the pause further,” an Education Department spokesperson said in a statement to POLITICO.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Law school is outrageously expensive.  I was incredibly  fortunate not to have debt coming out of law school.  That meant that once we got married, my husband was able to pay his off a LOT faster than otherwise - he just plowed his bonus every year into debt repayment.  Still took him about 10 years out of law school and we both had (and have) BigLaw jobs.  This is why I tell prospective law students (1) go to the very best law school you get into, unless (2) you get a free ride at a lower ranked top 25 school, but (3) not sure I recommend going to a lower ranked school at all (and definitely not if you are paying full freight and borrowing unless you REALLY have a plan).  

100%. I took the LSAT twice, once as a senior and again a year or so later and both times was in the mid 160's range, which is solid but not elite. I took that combined with a 3.9 GPA and just called admissions offices up and asked what my general prospects were. Berkley was the only top 10 school that said I could maybe get in, no chance at a scholarship, some top 25 schools said I'd likely get in, but again, little or no scholarship chances for at least the first year. I called some other random schools in the top 50 and then my best prospects were a 50% scholarship.

In hindsight maybe I should have gone to Hawaii's law school. They told me I'd likely get most of the costs covered, but then I'd probably have been stuck on that island for the rest of my life. Oh well.

15 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

Wait so let me get this straight.  You support fixing the high cost of a four year degree. You support free two year degrees.  Unless the president, in his unlimited bullshit, wants to somehow suggest they are related, despite reality?  Ok, bud.  

If you support it, why even bother trying to tie it into the student debt shit?

The point is a lot of people who are trying to sell you on a solution for the larger problem don't actually have one, not one that is at least as workable as they say. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

The point is a lot of people who are trying to sell you on a solution for the larger problem don't actually have one, not one that is at least as workable as they say. 

Biden not wanting to do free community college or eliminate student debt doesn't make those policies any less valid or 'workable'.  My entire rant here has been that he isn't capable of addressing the issues.  Using his shitty rhetoric to argue against free community college is either disingenuous or misguided.  

I don't want this shit because Biden is allegedly selling it, so him saying free cc will help student debt is irrelevant.  I want those things because they are good policy.

eta:Also, the free community college doesn't cost shit relatively speaking.  The fact that there isn't push for it in a regular bill is incredibly telling.  Bring that to a floor vote and let the GOP vote it down.  Could actually be a great way to try to sell the failed BBB, bring each item up on its own and have people go on record opposing popular shit.  

If Dems are doomed to fail make people go on record denying those things. at least then when election rolls around you can point to what you were prevented from accomplishing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Lermo T.I. Krrrammpus said:

eta:Also, the free community college doesn't cost shit relatively speaking.  The fact that there isn't push for it in a regular bill is incredibly telling.  Bring that to a floor vote and let the GOP vote it down.  Could actually be a great way to try to sell the failed BBB, bring each item up on its own and have people go on record opposing popular shit.  

If Dems are doomed to fail make people go on record denying those things. at least then when election rolls around you can point to what you were prevented from accomplishing.

So the last thing I guess I'll say for now on the part of your post I nixed, I don't think we're actually all that far apart, but are just coming at it from different perspectives.

But this, 100%. If the larger bill is dead (and here we can reintroduce a lot of what the progressives wanted in the much larger bill), make everyone, especially Manchin, vote on them. If you're going to deny the public things it needs, go on the fucking record, and then journalists need to hold them to account. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Biden just extended the pause on repayment of student loans. Gotta say, love it that they had to be bullied into do the bare minimum just so that people don't start to expect them to do good things without a fight. It's like the Democrats are allergic to doing the right thing in a way that doesn't make them look as feckless as possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/21/2021 at 7:30 AM, Week said:

The general feeling of the thread IIRC was pro-Warren followed by Sanders (mostly Simon, Great Unwashed, Larry) and some Klobuchar or Buttigieg interest. Biden was pretty universally a last choice among actual Democrats (excluding Bloomberg and Gabbard).

That is to say, for me, my choice is neither. I'd prefer someone more on the Left that is under 50 (Warren was my pick - though she's older than I'd prefer too).

That's the tough thing about leftist candidates at the moment--they're either very old, or very young. We don't have many good options in between Warren's age and the Squad. Unless there's a hidden superstar out there we don't know about.

On 12/21/2021 at 7:43 AM, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Would President Sanders actually achieve more than President Biden? 

That's the real question. Sanders arguably might have wanted an even more ambitious agenda (wasn't he one of the main authors of the BBB bill in its original form?). So would he have gotten anything from that dickhead from West Virginia? If so, how? So I don't think it would've made difference if we had President Sanders instead of President Biden. The precursor question was obviously, who had a better chance of winning the Presidency in 2020? The Democratic Party's answer to that question was Biden. Which I think was the right call. 

I think Sanders would achieve more than Biden through executive action. If everything stalled for him the way it has for Biden, he'd be more likely to do things like forgive student debt, etc. 

Of course, as much as Sanders gets (wrongly) labeled as obstructionist, I could also see him very much taking the same path as Biden and being ineffective trying to work with people like Manchin. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...