What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[Northern Sword]

22 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think you are forgetting about the Long Night and the wars that will happen simultaneously (Daenerys vs. Aegon, Euron vs. everyone)

It is very likely that millions of people in Westeros will die either due to warfare, starvation, sickness, inclement weather...or the amount of undead people milling about preying upon them. I think that's part of the reason why Dany's story is set in Essos and how she has so many followers in Essos: Westeros is going to be super depopulated and will need the infusion of people and resources.

I agree with you that the Faith will likely turn against the heretics in the North and the Riverlands or will launch their own anti-Others propaganda. But the Faith is clearly impotent compared to the faith systems of R'hllor, the old gods (even the Faceless Men and the drowned god). When red priests are able to fight off the undead and warm cold nights by conjuring flames or when the trees start talking again, the people that survive might feel a little different.

Also the Faith could very well overreach in their zealous lawmaking and law-enforcing...so much so that they end up losing the support of the people.

1. He wrongfully kept her prisoner. Marriage or not; a prisoner is a prisoner. Sansa was not a free woman. Technically, Sansa outranks him as the eldest daughter and (presumptive) heir of a Great House with a lineage that is arguably older and more prestigious than Tyrion's. Yet, somehow, Sansa is still unable to move freely about the Red Keep (much less King's Landing). Even after her marriage.
2. He supported a regime that betrayed her, slaughtered, humiliated and betrayed her father in a fairly sacrilegious way (knowing that her father was right all along) and that murdered her brother and mother in the most dishonorable way. But then he acts as if everything is gravy.
3. He married her and then tried to have sex with her (and then entice her to sex) when she was clearly unwilling. Not rape but it certainly rises to the level of sexual harassment. Plus, Sansa is beautiful and vibrant and talented and Tyrion...just doesn't match. It's a bad match and, in this world, bad matches are disrespectful and harmful. Especially for women.

If your desire to be loved comes at the expense of someone else's security and agency as a human being and you choose to be loved anyway, it's a problem.

And it's not even about how much he wants to be loved. Tyrion married her for power...for her power as the heir of Winterfell.

 

The fact that Tyrion is angry at her for not being affectionate to him and for abandoning him is a huge red flag. As clever and intelligent as Tyrion is, he is a complete idiot a lot of the time. Clearly, you know that she is a prisoner of war who never wanted to marry you and had no love for you. Why are you surprised and hurt that she left you high and dry? Wouldn't you do the same?

Sansa is smarter than she lets on as she clearly understands the situation much better than Tyrion does.

Wow, do you and I not see things the same.

1)Tyrion wasnt keeping her prisoner in any way. He was basically forced into the marriage himself. He was as much of a prisoner as she was. He was not in control. To have a prisoner under your control, you have to have control, which he did not. His father did, you know, the one he KILLED. 

2) You can't lay all of that on him imo. Was he part of that family, of course. But, he was never in control of the family. He had a short stint at hand, but was focused on saving the city, not exactly monstrous. His sister and Joff were far more involved in humiliating Sansa and killing ol' dead Ned. You cant possibly blame that on him. Tywin was the architect of the Red Wedding, Tyrion had 0 input on that. To be fair, a lot of that has got to be laid at Ned's feet. He was too out of his element in KL. Plus Sansa kinda betrayed her whole family as a starting point of this whole thing. Not dumb, but extremely naïve. Anyway, all I'm saying here is you can't blame Tyrion for the whole Lannister clan.

3) He did not have sex with Sansa. He admitted he wanted to, but he didn't act on that thought. Rape?? not even close. Sexual harassments... Joffrey certainly did, but a hard no from Tyrion on that one. Even when he brought it up and she replied "What if I never want to"  and he replied something about, that's what whores are for. 

He married her because he was told to, he even went so far as to say that to his dad. "As clever and intelligent as Tyrion is, he is a complete idiot a lot of the time", I think you can apply this to half of the characters, especially Sansa or Ned. Sansa was a whole lot of stupid for the first 3 books. Her character has come a long way from where she started, part of that growth is realizing a good looking person does not mean they are a good person.

SO. The opposite can be true, an ugly little disfigured dwarf can be a good man. That type of irony would fit the story. 

I don't think Tyrion was particularly mad at Sansa at any point, with the exception of him thinking about her escaping or running away after the PW, up to that point I don't remember him being mad at her(correct me if I'm wrong). But he is absolutely PISSED at his whole family, and if he is the last Lannister remaining who is Lord of the Rock...

[Nathan Stark]

41 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

aside from supposedly coming from grrm, it is the logical outcome. bran is the main protagonist of the story.

Well, not the main protagonist, but yes, basically this. A lot of people want to deny that the ending of the show has anything at all to do with GRRM's planned ending. And while the books have a lot of other moving parts not in the show, George is going to keep with the basic structure that we saw in the show, even if the context is different.

[Nathan Stark]

8 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Wow, do you and I not see things the same.

1)Tyrion wasnt keeping her prisoner in any way. He was basically forced into the marriage himself. He was as much of a prisoner as she was. He was not in control. To have a prisoner under your control, you have to have control, which he did not. His father did, you know, the one he KILLED. 

2) You can't lay all of that on him imo. Was he part of that family, of course. But, he was never in control of the family. He had a short stint at hand, but was focused on saving the city, not exactly monstrous. His sister and Joff were far more involved in humiliating Sansa and killing ol' dead Ned. You cant possibly blame that on him. Tywin was the architect of the Red Wedding, Tyrion had 0 input on that. To be fair, a lot of that has got to be laid at Ned's feet. He was too out of his element in KL. Plus Sansa kinda betrayed her whole family as a starting point of this whole thing. Not dumb, but extremely naïve. Anyway, all I'm saying here is you can't blame Tyrion for the whole Lannister clan.

3) He did not have sex with Sansa. He admitted he wanted to, but he didn't act on that thought. Rape?? not even close. Sexual harassments... Joffrey certainly did, but a hard no from Tyrion on that one. Even when he brought it up and she replied "What if I never want to"  and he replied something about, that's what whores are for. 

He married her because he was told to, he even went so far as to say that to his dad. "As clever and intelligent as Tyrion is, he is a complete idiot a lot of the time", I think you can apply this to half of the characters, especially Sansa or Ned. Sansa was a whole lot of stupid for the first 3 books. Her character has come a long way from where she started, part of that growth is realizing a good looking person does not mean they are a good person.

SO. The opposite can be true, an ugly little disfigured dwarf can be a good man. That type of irony would fit the story. 

I don't think Tyrion was particularly mad at Sansa at any point, with the exception of him thinking about her escaping or running away after the PW, up to that point I don't remember him being mad at her(correct me if I'm wrong). But he is absolutely PISSED at his whole family, and if he is the last Lannister remaining who is Lord of the Rock...

Umm, no. As Hand, Tyrion had the option of sending Sansa back to her family in a prisoner exchange. He chose not too. When he was "forced" to marry her, he was allowed to choose to do so, with the promise of aquiring Winterfell. So no, he wasn't really "forced." Tyrion and Sansa were not equally wronged.

[Brother Seamus]

he is the main protagonist. this is obscured by all the subplots and more or less separate stories - especially Dany - but Bran (perhaps jointly with Arya) is the protagonist. Jon Dany et al are subsidiary characters.

[Nathan Stark]

Not really. Bran has the fewest amount of pov chapters of the Big Six. Jon, Arya and Tyrion have the most pov's by far, so purely by page count, they have larger roles in the story than Bran does. As a general matter, I consider Bran, Sansa and Davos to be "late story" protagonists, where their biggest affects have not yet been registered on the plot. But the attention and time devoted to Jon, Dany, and the Kings Landing storyline hardly suggest they are subplots. So far, they have been the main plot.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I am curious about what role Bran will have once he returns to Winterfell, and how close he's going to be with each of his living siblings and how much they are going to rely on his powers. 

Of course he'd be the closest with Rickon given the time and shared experience and trauma they went together, and as Rickon is his natural opposite; I wonder how close he's going to be to Sansa, Arya and Jon.

[chrisdaw]

11 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

aside from supposedly coming from grrm, it is the logical outcome. bran is the main protagonist of the story.

Key word, supposedly.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:23 PM, MissM said:

Explain. 

There is precedent for different branches with claims to a title to marry and merge, perhaps even in House Stark: Rickard-Lyarra marriage could be one such. Even after his true parentage is revealed, in the eyes of the lords of the North and especially in his own mind, Jon will remain a son of Eddard Stark.

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

he is the main protagonist. this is obscured by all the subplots and more or less separate stories - especially Dany - but Bran (perhaps jointly with Arya) is the protagonist. Jon Dany et al are subsidiary characters.

Arya is Alia of the Knife and Bran is an amalgamation of Paul Muad'Dib Atreides and the God Emperor, Leto II Atreides.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If the Vale wants to join the Kingdom of the North and the Trident, then I think the northmen will care 

And if the Vale helps free and feed the North, then I think the northmen will care.

If the Vale wanted to Join the short lived, no more existing Kingdom of the North and the Trident, they could've raised their armies and supported them during War of the Five Kings, but they didn't.

[Northern Sword]

18 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Umm, no. As Hand, Tyrion had the option of sending Sansa back to her family in a prisoner exchange. He chose not too. When he was "forced" to marry her, he was allowed to choose to do so, with the promise of aquiring Winterfell. So no, he wasn't really "forced." Tyrion and Sansa were not equally wronged.

Tywin Lannister was an unstoppable force to enemies, friends, and family. The only one who truly defied him was Jaime. To say Tyrion wasn't forced... I dunno, kind of. I get what your saying. But still,  He was imo.  You can not ignore the family dynamic. When the implacable Tywin Lannister tells you to do something... you fucking do it.

The whole idea of "equally wronged" is amusing. There are only Pawns and Players. Sansa had no power whatsoever as she was a hostage, so, yeah, no real equality, obviously. But that has little to no relevance to what I was saying.

Anyway, time will tell. I wasn't stating any firm belief, just thinking out loud an idea that in my mind may occur. It is both plausible and possible.

Oh and Bran wont be king. lol

Cheers.

[Springwatch]

 

19 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Tywin Lannister was an unstoppable force to enemies, friends, and family. The only one who truly defied him was Jaime. To say Tyrion wasn't forced... I dunno, kind of. I get what your saying. But still,  He was imo.  You can not ignore the family dynamic. When the implacable Tywin Lannister tells you to do something... you fucking do it.

Not always - Tyrion defied Tywin to keep Shae at King's Landing. But yes Tyrion finds it difficult when they're face to face.

When Tyrion was Hand though, it's amazing how little restraint he shows - he doesn't seem to think of Twyin at all.

Tyrion feels enough agency to throw the Grand Maester in jail, to send Jonos to the  Wall, to attack the guards taking Tommen into hiding, to threaten Tommen with rape and beatings, to risk Jaime's life in an elaborate rescue plan, to mildly poison Cersei, to publicly slap and threaten King Joffrey, to marry Joffrey to Margaery, to marry Myrcella to Trystane....

He could have done a hostage swap for Sansa.

[GMantis]

Thinking a bit more about the original question of this thread, it occurred to me that there are three assumptions (of events that are very likely to happen in any case) that are more or less necessary if there is actually to be a dispute, which would require a compromise:

a) The Boltons are defeated and Winterfell is either restored to the Starks or is in the hands of those willing to hand it over to them (most likely Stannis but also possibly a coalition of Northern Lords).

b) Jon Snow is resurrected and leaves the Night's Watch

c) Robb's will turns up with its most likely content (making Jon the heir and disinheriting Sansa).

Having taken this into account, there are several possible scenarios based on which the Stark children actually return to the North:

1. Bran and or RIckon. There would be no room for a dispute here. By law hey come before either of the girls in the line of succession and since (being presumed dead)aren't mentioned in Robb's will, they would come before Jon, regardless of how the will is worded. Now Bran's storyline seems to indicate that he won't be returning any time soon, but Rickon seems likely to arrive quite early into Winds of Winter. Of course since this would make the whole plot about the will meaningless, it seems more likely that Rickon would not actually arrive. Or alternatively he would arrive after a resolution is found to the succession dispute, making for a benign version of the "shaggy dog story". When Rickon does arrive, Wyman Mandery (or his son) will probably do his best to be appointed regent for Rickon.

2. Arya. Under no possible condition can I see Jon being willing to deny Arya's birthright. If Robb's will places him above her, he'll simply ignore the will. Though it's certainly possible that Arya wouldn't want to be the Lady of Winterfell in any case (even if she's acting occasionally like one), which Jon might reluctantly accept. If Arya does become the Lady of Winterfell, since she doesn't bring any backers with her, Jon would probably do his best to get picked as her regent.

3. Sansa. This actually has the potential to cause conflict (and seems more likely to happen than Arya arriving first): she's Robb's heir by law, but his will disinherits her. On top of that Stannis has vowed that he'd never allow Tyrion to take over Winterfell as her husband. Then there is the fact that while Jon Snow doesn't dislike Sansa, he certainly loves her the least of all his siblings. So if Jon would be willing to supplant one of his siblings, it would be Sansa. On the other hand, Jon has certainly strong moral reservations against taking the place of his siblings. He likened wishing to posses Winterfell to wishing for their deaths. And at least twice he specifically insisted on Sansa's rights even in the face of Stannis' objections about the Lannisters, even while he was trying to work with Stannis. He even (unlike Catelyn in a similar situation) refused to suggest Arya as an alternative. When it's considered that Robb was quite happy to disinherit Sansa, this loud and repeated denials certainly seems to be of some significance. There is of course, the caveat that at the time Jon thought that Sansa was dead. So it might be argued that his insistence on Sansa was nothing more than a meaningless gesture to. But it seems odd that he would insist on the rights of a dead sister and then deny the living Sansa her rights. And of course there is the question of Sansa's potential backers. Contrary to many, I don't see her having the support of the Vale behind her. Littlefinger's plan, like most plans that are explained in detail beforehand seems destined to fail, likely at an early stage. Sansa, if she arrives in the North might be little more than a fugitive, with no backers (except possibly Littlefinger, but he's more of a liability than an advantage). She could potentially have some backers among the Northern Lords, however. Being still underage, many could want to be her regent. And if the marriage with Tyrion would be annulled (which should not be so difficult, considering the circumstances under which it happened and that it was unconsumated) any of them would be happy to marry her and rule in her name. In fact, this last factor might get Sansa to give up her claim - she's already lamented how everyone wants to marry her only for her claim to Winterfell.

4. Arya and Sansa. Putting this last, because it doesn't seem particularly likely that both would arrive within Winds of Winter to the North. In this situation, Jon could actually quite happy to follow Robb's will, as far as Sansa's removal from the line of succession is concerned. Equally, Arya would not be as keen to give up her claim if it would go to Sansa instead. And Sansa would have few backers if Arya is present as an alternative.

So altogether I'd say the most likely scenario is one where Jon and Sansa are involved in a dispute over the succession (or at least different fractions support each of them) which is resolved by Sansa giving up her claim to Jon, which then is made meaningless by Rickon's arrival.

[Apoplexy]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:14 PM, GMantis said:

So altogether I'd say the most likely scenario is one where Jon and Sansa are involved in a dispute over the succession (or at least different fractions support each of them) which is resolved by Sansa giving up her claim to Jon, which then is made meaningless by Rickon's arrival.

Here the assumption would be that Jon fights Sansa for succession. I think it's more likely that Jon gives up his supposed claim. 

[Julia H.]

18 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Here the assumption would be that Jon fights Sansa for succession. I think it's more likely that Jon gives up his supposed claim. 

However, it is possible that the question won't be exactly "who has the best claim to rule the North", but "who will be able to defend the North". The North may need a "King of Winter", who may just resign when spring / summer comes so that a summer King(-in-the-North) can take over.

[GMantis]

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Here the assumption would be that Jon fights Sansa for succession. I think it's more likely that Jon gives up his supposed claim. 

I don't think that Jon would fight Sansa for the succession - his natural inclination, from everything we've seen, would be to step aside for her. Rather Sansa would give up her claim due to external concerns. One of these concerns (which I mentioned above) would be Sansa being pressured to marry one of the Northern Lords so that he can rule through her claim. After spending so much time being used for her claim, this is something she could well want to avoid. Also she could well prefer her brother to rule the North rather than to be a figurehead for whichever lord got to marry her. Another possible concern would be Stannis. If he's in a superior position, he might threaten to award the North to some other family rather than allow it to fall to "Lady Lannister" and her husband, so Sansa steps down rather than permit this to happen.

 

On 1/20/2022 at 12:30 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I doubt Arya and Bran would be relevant, at least for a very long time. By relevant, I mean they won't be present, their actions may - and I think will - have great impact even though they won't be there. If Jon is somehow released from his oaths to NW, he will be supported by a majority, if not unanimously as the lord of WF since Rickon is just a wee babe and Jon is a proven leader. At this point Rickon will most likely remain a ward of Manderly. As for Sansa, nobody gives a damn about what Vale knights has to say about the North, they have no say in that matter, that is, if they even think to support Sansa's claim to the North, which I think won't be the case if Jon becomes Lord of WF. After, if ever, Jon's parentage is made public he'll have to step down in favor of Rickon of course, in that case A marriage to Sansa and Jon as Rickon's regent will bind the family closely together and tie all loose ends.

Rickon might be a wee babe, but he would be the rightful Lord of Winterfell by all the laws of the realm, and I don't see the Northern Lords being willing to create the dangerous precedent that inheritance laws can be ignored when convenient. Additionally, Rickon as Lord of Winterfell gives great power to whoever gets to be his regent and since the most obvious candidate would be Wyman Mandery (or his son) the strongest backer of the Starks, he would almost certainly get his way.

And of course Jon would never agree to usurp his brother, so there is not even going to be any dispute.

[Apoplexy]

7 hours ago, GMantis said:

I don't think that Jon would fight Sansa for the succession - his natural inclination, from everything we've seen, would be to step aside for her. Rather Sansa would give up her claim due to external concerns. One of these concerns (which I mentioned above) would be Sansa being pressured to marry one of the Northern Lords so that he can rule through her claim. After spending so much time being used for her claim, this is something she could well want to avoid. Also she could well prefer her brother to rule the North rather than to be a figurehead for whichever lord got to marry her. Another possible concern would be Stannis. If he's in a superior position, he might threaten to award the North to some other family rather than allow it to fall to "Lady Lannister" and her husband, so Sansa steps down rather than permit this to happen.

 

I see Sansa moving towards WF. Whether she becomes lady of WF or not, I'm not sure. Her marriage to Tyrion could be annulled. And if she has the support of the rest of the Stark siblings (Bran, Jon, Arya), she would not be pressured to marry anyone unless she wants to. She can name an heir later on. As for Stannis, I highly doubt he can persuade the north to do anything even if he ends up in a better position. The northern lords won't accept his authority. I see the Stark siblings dealing with things unitedly rather than fight amongst themselves.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If the Vale wanted to Join the short lived, no more existing Kingdom of the North and the Trident, they could've raised their armies and supported them during War of the Five Kings, but they didn't.

They actually wanted to.

However, their liege (Lysa Arryn) forbade it. Even so, they kept pressing her to support them.

This is a pretty key aspect to the story in A Storm of Swords so I'm shocked.

21 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

1)Tyrion wasnt keeping her prisoner in any way. He was basically forced into the marriage himself. He was as much of a prisoner as she was. He was not in control. To have a prisoner under your control, you have to have control, which he did not. His father did, you know, the one he KILLED. 

He was keeping her prisoner.

Unlike any other highborn married woman, Sansa could not come and go as she pleased. As bad as Cersei's marriage was, she never - at any point - had her freedom of movement restricted. Nor was she unable to entertain her own guests as she saw fit. The marriage between Lynesse Hightower and Jorah Mormont was also unsuccessful. But Lynesse Hightower had a lot of agency and power, enough for her to make arrangements to leave Jorah for another man without Jorah knowing.

Yet, Sansa was confined to certain parts of the Red Keep, including the godswood which is where she spent most of her time.

Once they were married, Sansa was Tyrion's and Tyrion was Sansa's. He, as the husband, had the greatest amount of contorl. If he wanted to take her (or send her) to Casterly Rock or Lannisport, he could.

Tyrion, however, was not kept prisoner. He had a job. I know people feel like there's no difference between having a job and being a prisoner (lol), but there is a difference. What's more is that Tyrion liked living in King's Landing (particularly the Red Keep). He could've declined his father's offer to be the Master of Coin but he accepted it because Tyrion:

1. loves King's Landing
2. has a lust for power

Just like his father and sister.

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

2) You can't lay all of that on him imo. Was he part of that family, of course. But, he was never in control of the family. He had a short stint at hand, but was focused on saving the city, not exactly monstrous. His sister and Joff were far more involved in humiliating Sansa and killing ol' dead Ned. You cant possibly blame that on him. Tywin was the architect of the Red Wedding, Tyrion had 0 input on that. To be fair, a lot of that has got to be laid at Ned's feet. He was too out of his element in KL. Plus Sansa kinda betrayed her whole family as a starting point of this whole thing. Not dumb, but extremely naïve. Anyway, all I'm saying here is you can't blame Tyrion for the whole Lannister clan.

1. I understand what you're saying. But Tyrion was the Hand of the King and he accomplished quite a bit. The amount of time he had spent as the Hand is irrelevant. Not only was Tyrion Hand of the King but he was arguably more powerful than the Queen Regent. Anything that he wanted to happen happened (~90% of the time) and anything that he didn't want to happen simply didn't happen (~99% of the time).
2. Yes, Tyrion was focused on saving the city. But the city did not belong to them. The city belonged to a trueborn Baratheon (actually it really belonged to a trueborn Targaryen but that's a completely different conversation). Tyrion knew that none of Cersei's children were trueborn but he upheld their status anyways. What is that? I'll tell what it is: criminal at best. At least you can make the argument that it belongs to the Baratheons by right of conquest and a legitimate rebellion.
3. How did Sansa betray her family? I'm not seeing how asking Cersei to stop her father from making her leave King's Landing is a betrayal. It's not betrayal if it's done out of ignorance. Did Edmure betray his family by taking it upon himself to stop Tywin's progress? Did Robb, Brynden or Catelyn call it betrayal? No. It's not betrayal because he didn't know. Likewise, you can't say Sansa betrayed her family by telling the queen about her father's plans to send her away. If you're talking about the situation at Darry with the direwolves, then Sansa still didn't really betray her family. Not really. As sad as the situation was, it was not that big of a deal. Not enough for it to be considered betrayal. Everyone else -- apart from Cersei, Joffrey and the Stark sisters -- thinks it was a matter of kids being kids. And not even Joffrey or Cersei (the latter of whom thinks anything that someone else does that conflicts with what she wants to do is a betrayal) viewed it as a betrayal. Should she have told the king the story that she told her father? Sure. Can we really blame her for choking? No. Ultimately, the adults failed in that situation with Robert betraying both himself and Ned.
4. I'm not blaming Tyrion for the rest of the Lannister clan's issues. I'm saying that Tyrion is a big contributor to the Lannister clan's issues. He is as much a part of it as Cersei, Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion.

 

I actually think it's funny that you accuse Sansa of betraying her family by saying the wrong thing to the wrong person (an adult she trusted, mind you) at the wrong time when you give Tyrion a pass. And Tyrion is someone who not only repeatedly thinks of terrorizing and harming his family...but he actually does it.

As innocent as Tyrion was of killing Joffrey, I actually cannot blame or dismiss all of the witness testimony. It made sense that so many people would testify against him. Tyrion made some really bad calls when it came to both Joffrey and Tommen (and if you're prejudiced, he made a bad call with Myrcella as well).

His issues with Joffrey were understandable (still very unwise) but Tommen? All that stuff was out of line.

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

3) He did not have sex with Sansa. He admitted he wanted to, but he didn't act on that thought. Rape?? not even close. Sexual harassments... Joffrey certainly did, but a hard no from Tyrion on that one. Even when he brought it up and she replied "What if I never want to"  and he replied something about, that's what whores are for. 

He did act on the thought of wanting to have sex with Sansa.

Tyrion would purposefully make her sleep in the same bed and the same room as him (nobles have that option) and then he would purposefully sleep naked next to her. That normally would not be an issue but it is in this case. It is not normal for Tyrion to sleep naked--unless he has had sex or he is planning to have sex.

Which brings us back to square one of how he was acting on the thoughts of wanting to have sex with Sansa.

Did I say that he raped her? If so, I apologize because he didn't.

Sexual harassing Sansa. That's a yes. Marrying someone who clearly doesn't want to marry you, sleeping in the same bed as them and (repeatedly) asking them to have sex with you is sexual harassment.

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

He married her because he was told to, he even went so far as to say that to his dad. "As clever and intelligent as Tyrion is, he is a complete idiot a lot of the time", I think you can apply this to half of the characters, especially Sansa or Ned. Sansa was a whole lot of stupid for the first 3 books. Her character has come a long way from where she started, part of that growth is realizing a good looking person does not mean they are a good person.

Nope. Tyrion had the option.

Granted, Sansa would have just had another Lannister husband...but I think she'd be a bit more inclined to deal with a Lannister that was more removed from the Red Keep establishment. I think she still would've been distraught about marrying a Lannister but let's face it: Tyrion is not physically attractive (there are physically attractive dwarves and Tyrion is not one of them) nor is Tyrion attractive in a non-physical sense. It would've made her that much more unlikely to entertain him. And given how Sansa fantasizes about the Hound, how she steered clear of Marillion and how she is so wary around Harry the Heir, it shows that physical attractiveness is not something Sansa cares much about.

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

SO. The opposite can be true, an ugly little disfigured dwarf can be a good man. That type of irony would fit the story. 

Yes, an ugly little disgured dwarf can be a good man. And the irony would fit the story.

However, here's the catch. Tyrion is not a good man.

Given to how people across Westeros treat unapologetic whoremongers, no one is going to call a whoremonger a good man. Tyrion is also lecherous and a borderline alcoholic. Which is another strike against him. Tyrion is also not particularly friendly which at least Robert Baratheon could claim.

And I'm not seeing how someone who murders someone else and feeding them to starving poor people can still be considered a good person. And all for a secret prostitute?

22 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I don't think Tyrion was particularly mad at Sansa at any point, with the exception of him thinking about her escaping or running away after the PW, up to that point I don't remember him being mad at her(correct me if I'm wrong). But he is absolutely PISSED at his whole family, and if he is the last Lannister remaining who is Lord of the Rock...

...Sansa still won't want to have anything to do with him.

All Sansa cares about is going home (which is Winterfell) and reconnecting with Jon. She opines that no one will ever marry her for love, only for her claim.

Tyrion wasn't mad at Sansa before the Purple Wedding. I don't think he is that mad anymore. But I think he'll get pissed when he hears she is trying to marry another or is otherwise doing well for herself. He'll probably try to claim Winterfell in her name when he returns...which will be a huge issue.

I'm actually stunned that Tywin thought that it would be no problem for a Lannister (especially Tyrion Lannister) to sit in Eddard Stark's high seat. He was literally setting Tyrion up for assassination. The moment Tyrion set foot in the North, it would be game over. If Sansa didn't get rid of him once she got settled, then someone else would've gotten rid of him. Between people like Barbrey Dustin, Wyman Manderly, Cregan Karstark, Mors Umber and Ramsay Bolton, Tyrion would be toast.

That plot was doomed to fail.

23 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, not the main protagonist, but yes, basically this. A lot of people want to deny that the ending of the show has anything at all to do with GRRM's planned ending. And while the books have a lot of other moving parts not in the show, George is going to keep with the basic structure that we saw in the show, even if the context is different.

I do find it interesting that, with the reception that the showrunners got, they didn't say everything that happened was a planned ending of GRRM.

They specifically said that Bran becoming King was the one and only thing that GRRM told them that they adapted.

Not the White Walkers wanting to erase human memory from the planet, not Daenerys Targaryen going insane, not Cersei and Jaime dying in each other's arms, not Cleganebowl, not Jon doing whatever-the-fuck at the Wall, not Arya becoming an explorer, not Sansa becoming the Queen in the North, not Melisandre allowing herself to grow old and die, not Varys' attempt to betray Daenerys for Jon, not Euron Greyjoy being killed in a duel with Jaime Lannister...

Only Bran.

And it makes sense.

If something happens to Daenerys, Aegon and Jon and they all die without trueborn children of their own (which is all but guaranteed given the circumstances), then where will rulership of a united Westeros go?

If Aegon is real AND if Rhaegar was never removed from the line of succession, then the Iron Throne belongs to Aegon. If Aegon is real BUT Rhaegar was removed from the line of succession, then the Iron Throne belongs to Daenerys. If Aegon is fake, then Rhaegar's standing doesn't matter and the Iron Throne will belong to Daenerys. Then there's the argument in that Viserys was officially crowned and acknowledged by pretty much everyone while Rhaegar - despite being loved - was not.

In any case, the heir of Daenerys or Aegon would be Jon. But what if something happens to Jon?

Then the Iron Throne would pass to Jon's next of kin: the Starks of Winterfell. Who is the most senior member of House Stark? Bran.

And that's only looking at it from the vantage point of the Iron Throne. What about Robb Stark and his kingdom? The heir to that kingdom (which is over half of Westeros) would still be Bran.

Who inherits Bloodraven's "throne?" Again...it's Bran.

Although the Martells could make a case for the Iron Throne, it wouldn't fly. Arianne is related to Aegon by way of his mother, Elia Martell: they are cousins. But Jon would be Aegon's half-brother. Siblings - regardless of whether they are full siblings or half-siblings - come before cousins. And that half-sibling's line would come before the line of someone's mother.

Unless something really goes wrong and there is no one else, the line of succession moves always forwards not backwards. You have to move backwards in the female bloodline (i.e. Elia) to get to Arianne whereas getting to Bran is moving forwards in the male bloodline (i.e. Jon)

The male line takes precedence over the female line, especially since we're talking the Iron Throne.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

In any case, the heir of Daenerys or Aegon would be Jon. But what if something happens to Jon?

Then the Iron Throne would pass to Jon's next of kin: the Starks of Winterfell. Who is the most senior member of House Stark? Bran.

And that's only looking at it from the vantage point of the Iron Throne. What about Robb Stark and his kingdom? The heir to that kingdom (which is over half of Westeros) would still be Bran.

Who inherits Bloodraven's "throne?" Again...it's Bran.

Although the Martells could make a case for the Iron Throne, it wouldn't fly. Arianne is related to Aegon by way of his mother, Elia Martell: they are cousins. But Jon would be Aegon's half-brother. Siblings - regardless of whether they are full siblings or half-siblings - come before cousins. And that half-sibling's line would come before the line of someone's mother.

Unless something really goes wrong and there is no one else, the line of succession moves always forwards not backwards. You have to move backwards in the female bloodline (i.e. Elia) to get to Arianne whereas getting to Bran is moving forwards in the male bloodline (i.e. Jon)

The male line takes precedence over the female line, especially since we're talking the Iron Throne.

wouldn't the throne pass into Jon's closest kin from paternal side ? which makes it Edric Storm (assuming he's legitimized by then) or Trystane Martell ( regardless of whether Arianne survives) . there are still other ways that King Bran plays out (as you said) . he is already inheriting the weirwood throne. and there's a real possibility that Westeros divides into 4 kingdoms at the very least: North (having different religion and customs) , Central Westeros (where most powerful royal lines before conquest have died out and are the regions with the most similarities ) , Dorne (the region that was connected to Westeros only through kinship with Targaryens and has different laws ) and Iron Islands (unless they want to make some serious changes!) . which leaves Bran as the King in the North! 

[Corvo the Crow]

21 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They actually wanted to.

However, their liege (Lysa Arryn) forbade it. Even so, they kept pressing her to support them.

Nope, they didn't ACTUALLY wanted to. They asked for honor's sake, The regent(?) Lysa being Robb's aunt and their liege lord Robyn, being his cousin, as well as several houses being not so distant relatives to Starks or having good relations Plenty of houses throughout Westeros wage private wars if their liege doesn't have an iron grip on them like Tywin -which is a rarer case- in fact, conflict between vassals becomes rampant if the liege is weak such as in the case of Tywin's predecessor, Tytos. Even when Jon Arryn was younger(but not young) and had somewhat decent heirs, we see several of these houses raising their banners against him, in RR and we even see them raising 6000 men against the regent Petyr in very short notice and this is just from 6 houses. If they wanted to, any of the powerful lords could've sent a few hundred men without asking Lysa, who had no iron grip on her vassals, they could've poured down on Tywin from Bloody Gate and no one could have done anything, even the Knight of the Gate, Brynden was in support of this.

Either this or this is some very, very forced writing just to get Starks in a bad position. I'd like to think it's the former and there are some very solid in universe reasons because this aid didn't happen, with GRRM being a great writer and all.