What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Nope, they didn't ACTUALLY wanted to. They asked for honor's sake, The regent(?) Lysa being Robb's aunt and their liege lord Robyn, being his cousin, as well as several houses being not so distant relatives to Starks or having good relations Plenty of houses throughout Westeros wage private wars if their liege doesn't have an iron grip on them like Tywin -which is a rarer case- in fact, conflict between vassals becomes rampant if the liege is weak such as in the case of Tywin's predecessor, Tytos. Even when Jon Arryn was younger(but not young) and had somewhat decent heirs, we see several of these houses raising their banners against him, in RR and we even see them raising 6000 men against the regent Petyr in very short notice and this is just from 6 houses. If they wanted to, any of the powerful lords could've sent a few hundred men without asking Lysa, who had no iron grip on her vassals, they could've poured down on Tywin from Bloody Gate and no one could have done anything, even the Knight of the Gate, Brynden was in support of this.

Either this or this is some very, very forced writing just to get Starks in a bad position. I'd like to think it's the former and there are some very solid in universe reasons because this aid didn't happen, with GRRM being a great writer and all. 

I don't think that defying the will of their liege is honorable, practical or wise

In the case of Robert's Rebellion, defying Jon Arryn means that they have the support of the Iron Throne. In the Wot5K, defying Lysa Arryn means that they don't have the support of the Arryns or the Iron Throne. They'd be alone with hundreds of miles between them and Robb Stark.

Without Lysa's leave, there's nothing that they could've done. The Royces may have only 4,000 men at their command. That's not going to be of much help against the Lannister-Tyrell-Martell-Bolton-Frey alliance. What would be helpful is the ~30,000 army of all Valemen.

If the Vale jumped in, Robb wouldn't have needed to go back to the Freys or go north. The Valemen could simply have split their forces in half with one half gone north in Robb's place to pacify it and the other half going into the Riverlands to help Robb there.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't think that defying the will of their liege is honorable, practical or wise

In the case of Robert's Rebellion, defying Jon Arryn means that they have the support of the Iron Throne. In the Wot5K, defying Lysa Arryn means that they don't have the support of the Arryns or the Iron Throne. They'd be alone with hundreds of miles between them and Robb Stark.

Without Lysa's leave, there's nothing that they could've done. The Royces may have only 4,000 men at their command. That's not going to be of much help against the Lannister-Tyrell-Martell-Bolton-Frey alliance. What would be helpful is the ~30,000 army of all Valemen.

If the Vale jumped in, Robb wouldn't have needed to go back to the Freys or go north. The Valemen could simply have split their forces in half with one half gone north in Robb's place to pacify it and the other half going into the Riverlands to help Robb there.

Royces were the most powerful and as I said, even Knight of the Gate supports it. Many would have followed suit. As for RR, we see very well that they didn't have IT support and get crushed very quick.

[Northern Sword]

21 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They actually wanted to.

However, their liege (Lysa Arryn) forbade it. Even so, they kept pressing her to support them.

This is a pretty key aspect to the story in A Storm of Swords so I'm shocked.

He was keeping her prisoner.

Unlike any other highborn married woman, Sansa could not come and go as she pleased. As bad as Cersei's marriage was, she never - at any point - had her freedom of movement restricted. Nor was she unable to entertain her own guests as she saw fit. The marriage between Lynesse Hightower and Jorah Mormont was also unsuccessful. But Lynesse Hightower had a lot of agency and power, enough for her to make arrangements to leave Jorah for another man without Jorah knowing.

Yet, Sansa was confined to certain parts of the Red Keep, including the godswood which is where she spent most of her time.

Once they were married, Sansa was Tyrion's and Tyrion was Sansa's. He, as the husband, had the greatest amount of contorl. If he wanted to take her (or send her) to Casterly Rock or Lannisport, he could.

Tyrion, however, was not kept prisoner. He had a job. I know people feel like there's no difference between having a job and being a prisoner (lol), but there is a difference. What's more is that Tyrion liked living in King's Landing (particularly the Red Keep). He could've declined his father's offer to be the Master of Coin but he accepted it because Tyrion:

1. loves King's Landing
2. has a lust for power

Just like his father and sister.

1. I understand what you're saying. But Tyrion was the Hand of the King and he accomplished quite a bit. The amount of time he had spent as the Hand is irrelevant. Not only was Tyrion Hand of the King but he was arguably more powerful than the Queen Regent. Anything that he wanted to happen happened (~90% of the time) and anything that he didn't want to happen simply didn't happen (~99% of the time).
2. Yes, Tyrion was focused on saving the city. But the city did not belong to them. The city belonged to a trueborn Baratheon (actually it really belonged to a trueborn Targaryen but that's a completely different conversation). Tyrion knew that none of Cersei's children were trueborn but he upheld their status anyways. What is that? I'll tell what it is: criminal at best. At least you can make the argument that it belongs to the Baratheons by right of conquest and a legitimate rebellion.
3. How did Sansa betray her family? I'm not seeing how asking Cersei to stop her father from making her leave King's Landing is a betrayal. It's not betrayal if it's done out of ignorance. Did Edmure betray his family by taking it upon himself to stop Tywin's progress? Did Robb, Brynden or Catelyn call it betrayal? No. It's not betrayal because he didn't know. Likewise, you can't say Sansa betrayed her family by telling the queen about her father's plans to send her away. If you're talking about the situation at Darry with the direwolves, then Sansa still didn't really betray her family. Not really. As sad as the situation was, it was not that big of a deal. Not enough for it to be considered betrayal. Everyone else -- apart from Cersei, Joffrey and the Stark sisters -- thinks it was a matter of kids being kids. And not even Joffrey or Cersei (the latter of whom thinks anything that someone else does that conflicts with what she wants to do is a betrayal) viewed it as a betrayal. Should she have told the king the story that she told her father? Sure. Can we really blame her for choking? No. Ultimately, the adults failed in that situation with Robert betraying both himself and Ned.
4. I'm not blaming Tyrion for the rest of the Lannister clan's issues. I'm saying that Tyrion is a big contributor to the Lannister clan's issues. He is as much a part of it as Cersei, Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion.

 

I actually think it's funny that you accuse Sansa of betraying her family by saying the wrong thing to the wrong person (an adult she trusted, mind you) at the wrong time when you give Tyrion a pass. And Tyrion is someone who not only repeatedly thinks of terrorizing and harming his family...but he actually does it.

As innocent as Tyrion was of killing Joffrey, I actually cannot blame or dismiss all of the witness testimony. It made sense that so many people would testify against him. Tyrion made some really bad calls when it came to both Joffrey and Tommen (and if you're prejudiced, he made a bad call with Myrcella as well).

His issues with Joffrey were understandable (still very unwise) but Tommen? All that stuff was out of line.

He did act on the thought of wanting to have sex with Sansa.

Tyrion would purposefully make her sleep in the same bed and the same room as him (nobles have that option) and then he would purposefully sleep naked next to her. That normally would not be an issue but it is in this case. It is not normal for Tyrion to sleep naked--unless he has had sex or he is planning to have sex.

Which brings us back to square one of how he was acting on the thoughts of wanting to have sex with Sansa.

Did I say that he raped her? If so, I apologize because he didn't.

Sexual harassing Sansa. That's a yes. Marrying someone who clearly doesn't want to marry you, sleeping in the same bed as them and (repeatedly) asking them to have sex with you is sexual harassment.

Nope. Tyrion had the option.

Granted, Sansa would have just had another Lannister husband...but I think she'd be a bit more inclined to deal with a Lannister that was more removed from the Red Keep establishment. I think she still would've been distraught about marrying a Lannister but let's face it: Tyrion is not physically attractive (there are physically attractive dwarves and Tyrion is not one of them) nor is Tyrion attractive in a non-physical sense. It would've made her that much more unlikely to entertain him. And given how Sansa fantasizes about the Hound, how she steered clear of Marillion and how she is so wary around Harry the Heir, it shows that physical attractiveness is not something Sansa cares much about.

Yes, an ugly little disgured dwarf can be a good man. And the irony would fit the story.

However, here's the catch. Tyrion is not a good man.

Given to how people across Westeros treat unapologetic whoremongers, no one is going to call a whoremonger a good man. Tyrion is also lecherous and a borderline alcoholic. Which is another strike against him. Tyrion is also not particularly friendly which at least Robert Baratheon could claim.

And I'm not seeing how someone who murders someone else and feeding them to starving poor people can still be considered a good person. And all for a secret prostitute?

...Sansa still won't want to have anything to do with him.

All Sansa cares about is going home (which is Winterfell) and reconnecting with Jon. She opines that no one will ever marry her for love, only for her claim.

Tyrion wasn't mad at Sansa before the Purple Wedding. I don't think he is that mad anymore. But I think he'll get pissed when he hears she is trying to marry another or is otherwise doing well for herself. He'll probably try to claim Winterfell in her name when he returns...which will be a huge issue.

I'm actually stunned that Tywin thought that it would be no problem for a Lannister (especially Tyrion Lannister) to sit in Eddard Stark's high seat. He was literally setting Tyrion up for assassination. The moment Tyrion set foot in the North, it would be game over. If Sansa didn't get rid of him once she got settled, then someone else would've gotten rid of him. Between people like Barbrey Dustin, Wyman Manderly, Cregan Karstark, Mors Umber and Ramsay Bolton, Tyrion would be toast.

That plot was doomed to fail.

I do find it interesting that, with the reception that the showrunners got, they didn't say everything that happened was a planned ending of GRRM.

They specifically said that Bran becoming King was the one and only thing that GRRM told them that they adapted.

Not the White Walkers wanting to erase human memory from the planet, not Daenerys Targaryen going insane, not Cersei and Jaime dying in each other's arms, not Cleganebowl, not Jon doing whatever-the-fuck at the Wall, not Arya becoming an explorer, not Sansa becoming the Queen in the North, not Melisandre allowing herself to grow old and die, not Varys' attempt to betray Daenerys for Jon, not Euron Greyjoy being killed in a duel with Jaime Lannister...

Only Bran.

And it makes sense.

If something happens to Daenerys, Aegon and Jon and they all die without trueborn children of their own (which is all but guaranteed given the circumstances), then where will rulership of a united Westeros go?

If Aegon is real AND if Rhaegar was never removed from the line of succession, then the Iron Throne belongs to Aegon. If Aegon is real BUT Rhaegar was removed from the line of succession, then the Iron Throne belongs to Daenerys. If Aegon is fake, then Rhaegar's standing doesn't matter and the Iron Throne will belong to Daenerys. Then there's the argument in that Viserys was officially crowned and acknowledged by pretty much everyone while Rhaegar - despite being loved - was not.

In any case, the heir of Daenerys or Aegon would be Jon. But what if something happens to Jon?

Then the Iron Throne would pass to Jon's next of kin: the Starks of Winterfell. Who is the most senior member of House Stark? Bran.

And that's only looking at it from the vantage point of the Iron Throne. What about Robb Stark and his kingdom? The heir to that kingdom (which is over half of Westeros) would still be Bran.

Who inherits Bloodraven's "throne?" Again...it's Bran.

Although the Martells could make a case for the Iron Throne, it wouldn't fly. Arianne is related to Aegon by way of his mother, Elia Martell: they are cousins. But Jon would be Aegon's half-brother. Siblings - regardless of whether they are full siblings or half-siblings - come before cousins. And that half-sibling's line would come before the line of someone's mother.

Unless something really goes wrong and there is no one else, the line of succession moves always forwards not backwards. You have to move backwards in the female bloodline (i.e. Elia) to get to Arianne whereas getting to Bran is moving forwards in the male bloodline (i.e. Jon)

The male line takes precedence over the female line, especially since we're talking the Iron Throne.

@BlackLightning Nice post. Well thought out and reasoned. 

But I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

We are starting from different starting points as I think Tyrion is at heart a good man rather than a power hungry abuser, his environment has made him into a vile, spiteful person to some extent. Yet I think redemption is in his story and he will revert back. 

Definitely our ending points differ as well.

Getting back to Sansa, I don't see her making a play for WF. Her power base will be the Vale, Harrenhal & Riverlands. Whether she ends up with Tyrion(which would add the West to that power bloc) is just speculation on my part, but I could see it. But other options are HtH, Sweet Robin, hell even Littlefinger or fAegon(Blackfyre) all of these options would keep her in the south. Keep in mind I easily can be wrong, lol. In fact, I most likely am, but this is my guess.

I think the north will end up in Jon's hands at the King of Winter, with Rickon being the future Lord of WF.

Bran becomes the old gods and people praying to trees will be praying to him.

The most fun question for me is what is the little serial killer going to do once she gets back home. NO political ambitions, but a killer on the loose will be a good read.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Royces were the most powerful and as I said, even Knight of the Gate supports it. Many would have followed suit. As for RR, we see very well that they didn't have IT support and get crushed very quick.

They did have the support of the Iron Throne.

The Iron Throne told Jon Arryn to execute Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn said no and called his banners.

The Arryn bannermen rose up against their overlord and fought for their king.

By default, that means that they had the support of the Iron Throne. Regardless of whether the Iron Throne sends supplies or soldiers there way.

If they had beaten Jon Arryn and handed Robert and Ned over, then they would have been rewarded.

2 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

@BlackLightning Nice post. Well thought out and reasoned. 

But I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

We are starting from different starting points as I think Tyrion is at heart a good man rather than a power hungry abuser, his environment has made him into a vile, spiteful person to some extent. Yet I think redemption is in his story and he will revert back. 

Definitely our ending points differ as well.

Getting back to Sansa, I don't see her making a play for WF. Her power base will be the Vale, Harrenhal & Riverlands. Whether she ends up with Tyrion(which would add the West to that power bloc) is just speculation on my part, but I could see it. But other options are HtH, Sweet Robin, hell even Littlefinger or fAegon(Blackfyre) all of these options would keep her in the south. Keep in mind I easily can be wrong, lol. In fact, I most likely am, but this is my guess.

I think the north will end up in Jon's hands at the King of Winter, with Rickon being the future Lord of WF.

Bran becomes the old gods and people praying to trees will be praying to him.

The most fun question for me is what is the little serial killer going to do once she gets back home. NO political ambitions, but a killer on the loose will be a good read.

Okay.

I don't think Sansa will make a play for Winterfell. I think Sansa will want to go back to Winterfell and make a play for her family.

I don't think Sansa wants to have anything to do with the south anymore. She has been wanting to go back home since her last chapter in A Game of Thrones. When she finally gets the opportunity to go back home, why would she want to stay in the south?

The only reason I see her going back to King's Landing in The Winds of Winter is if she is kidnapped and taken there (unlikely and narratively backwards) or if she seeking an annulment. Learning that her siblings are alive and/or Jon has been crowned will make Sansa want to do everything in her power to go back.

 

As for Arya? I think Lady Stoneheart has political ambitions for her. I think Catelyn wants to crown Arya, get rid of all the Freys, kill Jaime Lannister (and/or use him to organize a Red Wedding type of massacre for Lannisters), reaffirm Stark control over the Riverlands before heading north to get rid of the Boltons. The text all but shows this.

So, if there will be any real trouble in Winterfell, it'll be a showdown between UnCat and UnJon with the Stark kids caught in the middle.

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They did have the support of the Iron Throne.

Where was Gondor Iron Throne when the Westfold Gulltown Fell?

 

There was also a  huge difference between the circumstances in RR and WotFK, In the first Dorne and Reach was wholly behind IT with only the North having all it's vassals in support of their LP, SL, RL and Vale had houses on both sides and Westerlanders were no where to be seen.  In WotFK, IT only has the backing of WL, which made the opening move of the War by attacking the RL and RL, North, SL and Reach were all against the IT, with Dorne sitting it out, having absolutely no reason at all to support IT and a motive to rise up as well. Again, it's absolutely that mr. Martin is such a great writer that here he shows us that Valemen only ask for honor's sake and don't actually want to join the war and not at all forcing the writing to make circumstances for the North etc. worse, no sir and/or ma'am. 

[Northern Sword]

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They did have the support of the Iron Throne.

The Iron Throne told Jon Arryn to execute Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn said no and called his banners.

The Arryn bannermen rose up against their overlord and fought for their king.

By default, that means that they had the support of the Iron Throne. Regardless of whether the Iron Throne sends supplies or soldiers there way.

If they had beaten Jon Arryn and handed Robert and Ned over, then they would have been rewarded.

Okay.

I don't think Sansa will make a play for Winterfell. I think Sansa will want to go back to Winterfell and make a play for her family.

I don't think Sansa wants to have anything to do with the south anymore. She has been wanting to go back home since her last chapter in A Game of Thrones. When she finally gets the opportunity to go back home, why would she want to stay in the south?

The only reason I see her going back to King's Landing in The Winds of Winter is if she is kidnapped and taken there (unlikely and narratively backwards) or if she seeking an annulment. Learning that her siblings are alive and/or Jon has been crowned will make Sansa want to do everything in her power to go back.

 

As for Arya? I think Lady Stoneheart has political ambitions for her. I think Catelyn wants to crown Arya, get rid of all the Freys, kill Jaime Lannister (and/or use him to organize a Red Wedding type of massacre for Lannisters), reaffirm Stark control over the Riverlands before heading north to get rid of the Boltons. The text all but shows this.

So, if there will be any real trouble in Winterfell, it'll be a showdown between UnCat and UnJon with the Stark kids caught in the middle.

I do think she WANTS to go back to WF, in a nostalgic sense( a simpler time ). But once Sansa finally moves from pawn to player, she wont abandon that power base. She very well may head home for a bit, to help put things right, but not to stay.  I don't see her going to Kings Landing either. She stays in the Vale and/or the Riverlands.

Regarding Sansa and her relationship to her wolf pack( the hangover and Zack Galifianakis just popped into my mind for some reason...lol), for a while now I have thought it potentially severed. I can't remember exactly where this comes from, but with Jon and his wolf, somewhere it was said something like " there are 5, and one apart". There is a similar thing with Sansa(in my mind), is she now apart, due to the loss of the wolf ?

She will be looking to LEAD a new pack. Her dog isn't far away. Brienne is in the vicinity too. 

Stoneheart is a puzzle for me. Simply don't know.

How is Arya going to get Nymeria back ? I see her going north, but would she return to the Riverlands slice and dice some freys, get her wolf then head north ? 

[Nathan Stark]

27 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

I do think she WANTS to go back to WF, in a nostalgic sense( a simpler time ). But once Sansa finally moves from pawn to player, she wont abandon that power base. She very well may head home for a bit, to help put things right, but not to stay.  I don't see her going to Kings Landing either. She stays in the Vale and/or the Riverlands.

Regarding Sansa and her relationship to her wolf pack( the hangover and Zack Galifianakis just popped into my mind for some reason...lol), for a while now I have thought it potentially severed. I can't remember exactly where this comes from, but with Jon and his wolf, somewhere it was said something like " there are 5, and one apart". There is a similar thing with Sansa(in my mind), is she now apart, due to the loss of the wolf ?

She will be looking to LEAD a new pack. Her dog isn't far away. Brienne is in the vicinity too. 

Stoneheart is a puzzle for me. Simply don't know.

How is Arya going to get Nymeria back ? I see her going north, but would she return to the Riverlands slice and dice some freys, get her wolf then head north ? 

It makes no sense for Sansa to stay in the south, anymore than for Arya to stay in Braavos or Bran to stay in the cave. That's stasis. It also doesn't make sense for these characters to go to Winterfell for 5 minutes only to leave it again after so much emotional buildup for their return. That's just returning to the status quo. The big theme with the Stark kids is "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." So far, they are all lone wolves, each one of them. They must reunite to survive. Thematically, they all have to go home and become a family unit again.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

It makes no sense for Sansa to stay in the south, anymore than for Arya to stay in Braavos or Bran to stay in the cave. That's stasis.

Bran HAS to stay in that cave. He is replacement parts for the Weirwood network machine just as Brynden was before him as evidenced by all those skeletons.

[Nathan Stark]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Bran HAS to stay in that cave. He is replacement parts for the Weirwood network machine just as Brynden was before him as evidenced by all those skeletons.

The skeletons aren't much evidence of anything. Sure, Bran's being there is probably a sign that the COTF want to use him for his powers, but that only tells us they are not to be trusted, not that their plans for Bran will actually work. He is going to leave (or escape) that cave eventually, maybe using the underground tunnels. And "Hold The Door" will probably occur during Bran's escape.

[Corvo the Crow]

18 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The skeletons aren't much evidence of anything. Sure, Bran's being there is probably a sign that the COTF want to use him for his powers, but that only tells us they are not to be trusted, not that their plans for Bran will actually work. He is going to leave (or escape) that cave eventually, maybe using the underground tunnels. And "Hold The Door" will probably occur during Bran's escape.

He better stock up on Jojen paste to eat along the way then 

[Jaenara Belarys]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Where was Gondor Iron Throne when the Westfold Gulltown Fell?

 

When the Westfold fell, Gondor was protecting Cair Andros and Osgiliath, along with Ithilien against the armies of Sauron and the Witch King, in no position to send military aid to Rohan. That's in the books AND the movies. 

Next time, ask a harder question. 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Next time, ask a harder question. 

 That's the student who takes 6 exams in 2 days! 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

 That's the student who takes 6 exams in 2 days! 

Whoever invented proofs and congruent triangles should be strung up. You'd think it'd be easier, but my brain is calibrated for equations, not triangles. 

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

When the Westfold fell, Gondor was protecting Cair Andros and Osgiliath, along with Ithilien against the armies of Sauron and the Witch King, in no position to send military aid to Rohan. That's in the books AND the movies. 

Next time, ask a harder question. 

You forgot to add something here, you KNOW.

 

Oh and I must add this

 

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

It makes no sense for Sansa to stay in the south, anymore than for Arya to stay in Braavos or Bran to stay in the cave. That's stasis. It also doesn't make sense for these characters to go to Winterfell for 5 minutes only to leave it again after so much emotional buildup for their return. That's just returning to the status quo. The big theme with the Stark kids is "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." So far, they are all lone wolves, each one of them. They must reunite to survive. Thematically, they all have to go home and become a family unit again.

And that's why the ending for the Starks in the show was annoyingly hollow and loveless at best.

They hardly spent any time together back at Winterfell and each went their separate ways for inexplicable reasons.

19 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The skeletons aren't much evidence of anything. Sure, Bran's being there is probably a sign that the COTF want to use him for his powers, but that only tells us they are not to be trusted, not that their plans for Bran will actually work. He is going to leave (or escape) that cave eventually, maybe using the underground tunnels. And "Hold The Door" will probably occur during Bran's escape.

I'm almost certain that Bran will escape (or be expelled, I doubt that they'll just let him come and go as he please and these aren't the type to be intrigued and manipulated) and get back to Westeros by way of Gorne's Way. These are not only the same underground tunnels and caves that Ygritte would talk about BUT they are also the same tunnels and caves that Arianne and Elia found in the Winds of Winter sample chapter.

19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Bran HAS to stay in that cave. He is replacement parts for the Weirwood network machine just as Brynden was before him as evidenced by all those skeletons.

That's the thing. They might want Bran to stay in the cave (and Bran having to stay put may be a thing) so that Bran can accomplish or achieve something. But Bran may want to do things differently than Bloodraven and/or the real Three-Eyed Crow and/or the CoTF

Bran wants to be a wizard, yes. But he's not at all Sam. He doesn't want to be a wizard that's shut up in some hovel or tower; he doesn't want to be a wizard just to be a wizard. He's not in it for power, prestige or knowledge. Bran wants to be a wizard because:

1. he needs help
2. he has nowhere else to go (literally...it's safest option for him)
3. he loves stories and adventures
4. he has precious few other options...especially if it becomes clear that his reproductive organs don't work

Remember, this is the same boy who wanted to walk and run again and who wanted be a knight well into A Dance with Dragons. It's the main reason why he walks around inside Hodor's body wielding a sword.

Maester Luwin put it in his head that there are different types of knights: knights of the mind to be specific. He's coming to terms with that but he's not going to want to stay in that underground cave.

I think that as soon as he gets another option, an option in which he has the option to take direct action and be physically present, he's going to want to explore that option.

20 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I do think she WANTS to go back to WF, in a nostalgic sense( a simpler time ). But once Sansa finally moves from pawn to player, she wont abandon that power base. She very well may head home for a bit, to help put things right, but not to stay.  I don't see her going to Kings Landing either. She stays in the Vale and/or the Riverlands.

Sansa's power base is Winterfell. Granted, she can wield a considerable amount of power in the Vale and the Riverlands as a beloved blood relative of the Lords Tully and Arryn. But her true power as Sansa Stark lies in Winterfell.

The further away a lord is away from their power base and their source of vassalage, the weaker they are. The closer that that lord gets, the stronger they become. If their power base falls or their vassalage weakens, then they are in danger.

I find it astonishing that literally everyone sees that (hence the little tug-of-wars people had over Sansa and Robb's desperation to get back to Winterfell in A Storm of Swords) except for the readers.

20 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Stoneheart is a puzzle for me. Simply don't know.

How is Arya going to get Nymeria back ? I see her going north, but would she return to the Riverlands slice and dice some freys, get her wolf then head north ? 

I don't think that there will be any ships from the Free Cities that will heading to the North in the dead of winter. The furthest north she'll be able to get will be White Harbor which is a huge stretch given that this is going to be a rough winter, even in normal Other-less circumstances.

Given that over half of the Vale will be closed, the Riverlands will be her only real option, the other one being King's Landing. But she has no business there if Cersei and Enemies™ aren't there. The Westerlands (which is where Cersei will be if she survives the next book) are too far. And why on Earth would she go to Dorne or the Stormlands?

Besides, Nymeria and her super-pack are fully capable of moving around.

[Northern Sword]

22 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

It makes no sense for Sansa to stay in the south, anymore than for Arya to stay in Braavos or Bran to stay in the cave. That's stasis. It also doesn't make sense for these characters to go to Winterfell for 5 minutes only to leave it again after so much emotional buildup for their return. That's just returning to the status quo. The big theme with the Stark kids is "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." So far, they are all lone wolves, each one of them. They must reunite to survive. Thematically, they all have to go home and become a family unit again.

I see it differently, 

Sansa's journey has not been static. What makes sense is finding the path of least resistance to power. I think that happens where she is now. Think of when Ned was going to send her back. She was trying to convince him that she should stay in the south. Her character even as far back as when she was in WF, pointed her south imo. 

As for the lone wolf / wolf pack. Think about Nymeria. She lost her pack in the south, and found a new one and is now leading it. Sansa's connection very well be severed to her original pack. Which would lead to her finding a new pack, figuratively speaking.

[Northern Sword]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And that's why the ending for the Starks in the show was annoyingly hollow and loveless at best.

They hardly spent any time together back at Winterfell and each went their separate ways for inexplicable reasons.

I'm almost certain that Bran will escape (or be expelled, I doubt that they'll just let him come and go as he please and these aren't the type to be intrigued and manipulated) and get back to Westeros by way of Gorne's Way. These are not only the same underground tunnels and caves that Ygritte would talk about BUT they are also the same tunnels and caves that Arianne and Elia found in the Winds of Winter sample chapter.

That's the thing. They might want Bran to stay in the cave (and Bran having to stay put may be a thing) so that Bran can accomplish or achieve something. But Bran may want to do things differently than Bloodraven and/or the real Three-Eyed Crow and/or the CoTF

Bran wants to be a wizard, yes. But he's not at all Sam. He doesn't want to be a wizard that's shut up in some hovel or tower; he doesn't want to be a wizard just to be a wizard. He's not in it for power, prestige or knowledge. Bran wants to be a wizard because:

1. he needs help
2. he has nowhere else to go (literally...it's safest option for him)
3. he loves stories and adventures
4. he has precious few other options...especially if it becomes clear that his reproductive organs don't work

Remember, this is the same boy who wanted to walk and run again and who wanted be a knight well into A Dance with Dragons. It's the main reason why he walks around inside Hodor's body wielding a sword.

Maester Luwin put it in his head that there are different types of knights: knights of the mind to be specific. He's coming to terms with that but he's not going to want to stay in that underground cave.

I think that as soon as he gets another option, an option in which he has the option to take direct action and be physically present, he's going to want to explore that option.

Sansa's power base is Winterfell. Granted, she can wield a considerable amount of power in the Vale and the Riverlands as a beloved blood relative of the Lords Tully and Arryn. But her true power as Sansa Stark lies in Winterfell.

The further away a lord is away from their power base and their source of vassalage, the weaker they are. The closer that that lord gets, the stronger they become. If their power base falls or their vassalage weakens, then they are in danger.

I find it astonishing that literally everyone sees that (hence the little tug-of-wars people had over Sansa and Robb's desperation to get back to Winterfell in A Storm of Swords) except for the readers.

I don't think that there will be any ships from the Free Cities that will heading to the North in the dead of winter. The furthest north she'll be able to get will be White Harbor which is a huge stretch given that this is going to be a rough winter, even in normal Other-less circumstances.

Given that over half of the Vale will be closed, the Riverlands will be her only real option, the other one being King's Landing. But she has no business there if Cersei and Enemies™ aren't there. The Westerlands (which is where Cersei will be if she survives the next book) are too far. And why on Earth would she go to Dorne or the Stormlands?

Besides, Nymeria and her super-pack are fully capable of moving around.

Think what has already occurred.

She is a Lady of Lannister(With the potential to be THE lady of Lannister), she is the Daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal and the Riverlands ( Natural daughter anyway ) and Daughter of the Lord Protector of the Vale. Her path to power doesn't require her to go anywhere... at all. She whole journey is one of Pawn to Player. She is set up, right where she needs to be. Where does power reside... where you think it does.

On top of that, she has been disinherited of WF. So, her power base is not in the north anymore. She would have to overcome a King's Will and take power over her younger brothers, I don't see that happening in the North.

Arya could land in Kings Landing kill off a few of her list and continue north. Or land right back at the Saltpans. Or anywhere in between. I think any of that would work.

[Nathan Stark]

41 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

I see it differently, 

Sansa's journey has not been static. What makes sense is finding the path of least resistance to power. I think that happens where she is now. Think of when Ned was going to send her back. She was trying to convince him that she should stay in the south. Her character even as far back as when she was in WF, pointed her south imo. 

As for the lone wolf / wolf pack. Think about Nymeria. She lost her pack in the south, and found a new one and is now leading it. Sansa's connection very well be severed to her original pack. Which would lead to her finding a new pack, figuratively speaking.

The problem with your position is that it isn't good storytelling. Taking the path of least resistance is just not a good way to build any kind of narrative momentum. And so far, Sansa's story has been all about her lack of agency, her desire to go home to her family thwarted by Lannisters, Tyrells, and Petyr Baelish. This mirrors Arya, who is also constantly derailed in her attempts to reach Robb and Catelyn. You are also overlooking Sansa's last chapter in A Game of Thrones:

Quote

From the high battlements of the gatehouse, the whole world spread out below them. Sansa could see the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill, where her father had died. At the other end of the Street of Sisters stood the fire-blackened ruins of the Dragonpit. To the west, the swollen red sun was half-hidden behind the Gate of the Gods. The salt sea was at her back, and to the south was the fish market and the docks and the swirling torrent of the Blackwater Rush. And to the north...

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and feilds and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

This passage basically spells it out for us; Kings Landing is a prison for Sansa from which she desperately wishes to escape. Winterfell is home for her, and she wants to go back to that place of safety and family. Her story is about how she gets home, and what she has to sacrifice, and do, and what temptations she needs to overcome, in order to go back to Winterfell, where her story began. This story is mirrored in Arya, who also wants to go back home, and also constantly faces obstacles and is similarly side-tracked. For Sansa or Arya to remain in place at the Vale or Braavos means that the story isn't progressing. And at the end of the day, this is a story, not a chess game, which I feel is how you are approaching things.

Nymeria is still bonded to Arya, who regularly skinchanges Nymeria in her wolf-dreams. This suggest to me that Nymeria is not entirely severed from the pack. However, your larger point is correct in theory, but doesn't apply in this situation. Going back to the original quote by Ned:

Quote

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In the winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman [sic], and Sansa... Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you... and I need both of you, gods help me."

Again, it is spelled out for us where the story is headed. House Stark rises or falls depending on the unity of its members. The Stark siblings need each other. They need Jon's resolute certainty against the Others. They need Sansa's political savvy and social grace. They need Arya's resourcefulness and cunning. They need Bran's knowledge and magic. They need Rickon's stubborn willfulness. Seperate from each other, these qualities are enough for them to barely scrape by, to stay just ahead of those who would do them harm. But together, they are truly secure. This is their story, as much as it is Dany's and Tyrion's. And their story leads back to Winterfell.

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Think what has already occurred.

She is a Lady of Lannister(With the potential to be THE lady of Lannister), she is the Daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal and the Riverlands ( Natural daughter anyway ) and Daughter of the Lord Protector of the Vale. Her path to power doesn't require her to go anywhere... at all. She whole journey is one of Pawn to Player. She is set up, right where she needs to be. Where does power reside... where you think it does.

On top of that, she has been disinherited of WF. So, her power base is not in the north anymore. She would have to overcome a King's Will and take power over her younger brothers, I don't see that happening in the North.

Arya could land in Kings Landing kill off a few of her list and continue north. Or land right back at the Saltpans. Or anywhere in between. I think any of that would work.

You have some decent text perception. You are wrong about Sansa not going to KL though and that is a key thing to understand as so much of the groundwork and arc relates to it. Take a step back. It is pawn to player and KL is where the players play, there's only one prize and it's in KL. The Vale is a training ground, it's a mini KL with intricate house relationships on a smaller scale. It is for Sansa to learn to play there (probably have a failure too to learn from), and from there to graduate to KL. One doesn't become queen from the Vale, no-one has ever ran the realm from the Eyrie, there's a limit to the power one can gain there and the pawn to player arc of the series is not going to limit herself.

A large part of playing is how the mob perceives one, in Sansa's presence, mostly through her POV we witness how Cersei poorly handles the mob, contrasted to how Marge handles it well. Sansa is almost murdered by them. King's Landing is the only place the text has bothered to make substantial the collective small folk, to make them a true factor, it's for good reason, that's the only place they're going to matter in a manner that requires any kind of depth. They're a factor in the game of thrones, a force that may be weaponised by a skilful player.

Multiple factions with which a player can treat and play will be based out of KL. The second Dance will be in large part a religious war, the Faith are becoming very powerful and they will determine a great deal of things in the realm. They're based in KL and proximity to them will be extremely helpful. Over time multiple factions will hold KL and being able to play from within them will be important. The main lesson in being Alayne is remaining inconspicuous while being in the room, and all the rooms to be in will be in KL. The meetings between the important parties, the small councils, almost every piece of information of worth will flow through KL.

KL is the viper's pit. She went there a pawn and was made a victim. It's for her to return there and conquer. She was the worst of liars there,

Quote

Sandor Clegane snorted. "Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here . . . and every one better than you."

and it is her arc to become the best. And the text is readying to test her lying skills, is she good enough to fool Arya's borderline magic lying tests? Tyrion's blanket mistrust? And what will be the biggest one, can she even fool a Hound's nose?

And because you were wondering about Arya. Arya can go anywhere, she had that skill to fall in with the smallfolk even before she became a face changing ninja actor pretending at parts. Arya made herself familiar with the base levels of Braavos and is already familiar with some of KL, as we the reader have too been made. The Kindly Men specifically have Arya collect and bring back information to base. What Sansa and Arya are becoming go hand in hand, Sansa runs the game and Arya is the grunt, and the only place with the diversity of character, scenarios, locations and the like to make use of these talents is KL and on extension the South. Sansa will run game in KL, Arya will be her catspaw. In Sansa's arc the solars and halls of the Eyrie and Gates of the Moon will become the chambers, septs and throne room of KL. In Arya's, the House of Black and White and the Braavos docks, whore houses, markets and streets will become the Red Keep, Great Sept and Flea Bottom with all its delicious flavours.

Here I'll quote the wiki to get the point across. King's Landing was probably created as commentary on the game of thrones. Like the rotten stink was probably created so GRRM could put in lines like this.

Quote

 

Walton: What's that awful stink?

Jaime: Smoke, sweat, and shit. King's Landing, in short. If you have a good nose you can smell the treachery too. You've never smelled a city before?
Walton: I smelled White Harbor. It never stank like this.

Jaime: White Harbor is to King's Landing as my brother Tyrion is to Ser Gregor Clegane.

. . .

The morning air was thick with the old familiar stinks of King's Landing. She breathed in the scents of sour wine, bread baking, rotting fish and nightsoil, smoke and sweat and horse piss. No flower had ever smelled so sweet.

. . .

King's Landing is a pit of snakes.

. . .

Is everyone someone's informer in this cursed city?

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I haven’t gone through all eight pages of comments, but I have long believed that Littlefinger will try to betroth Sansa to Aegon, but that she will finally rebel against her puppet masters’ control and find a way out of it on her own. So I think she’ll remain in the south for some time, but will eventually return north.

Sansa hasn’t learned much about actual policy, but quite frankly, George doesn’t really focus too much on policy besides “people need food.” Even with Dany in Meereen, it was more about making friends and influencing people than anything else. If I had to guess, Bran will be the lord of Winterfell (setting up his eventual ascension to king) and Sansa will be his advisor/diplomat/castellan. I don’t know how Jon fits into this, but he’ll probably spend a lot of time on the move. Like on the show, I think that Arya will be the last Stark to return home, and that Rickon’s life will be cut tragically short (possibly while still on Skagos).