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What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?


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9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Nor is Sansa. But she could be a Barbrey or a Wyman (hopefully she won't go as far as Wyman).

She will be, that's the whole point, and why she was spirited away to KL under Cersei and LF and has absolutely nothing to do with Barbrey or Wyman.

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On 1/30/2022 at 5:14 AM, GMantis said:

Ned telling Cersei that he knew about the incest and relying on Littlefinger led to Ned dying. Nothing Sansa did affected his fate. As for Arya, it's possible she might have escaped, reached Winterfell, prevented the castle's capture by Theon and so prevented the Red Wedding. But it's also possible that without the attempt to seize her during her lesson with Syrio, she'd simply be captured at the Tower of the Hand, in which case she'd probably have been killed long before the end of ADWD.

  

Jon will not become king if his brother is alive - this would be completely against his character. And the King of Winter is the Lord of Winterfell, it's just that as the later is a lower rank title, it wasn't used when the Starks were kings.

Bran, as has already been revealed, will be King of the Seven Kingdoms.

"The little serial killer" or more accurately the deeply traumatized young girl who's been forced to kill to survive and whose list has been the anchor that allowed her to keep her identity, will probably meet up with Lady Stoneheart and forsake the path vengeance as a hollow pursuit that leads nowhere. After that Arya will reunite with her family and return home, which has always been her primary aim.

  

You say that "Sansa's journey has not been static" and then you try to project this path from her outlook back at the beginning, ignoring that entire journey. Her path pointed south when she loved Joffrey, admired Cersei and thought of Winterfell as a grey prison. Very little is left of that Sansa, so why the assumption that her path is still pointing south?

I think we have to differentiate between King of Winter, King of Winterfell, and King of Westeros. Jon will be King of Winter- basically for the fight against the Others. I don't think he would "Dance" against his family and I don't think he ends up with Winterfell. He will rule during winter, and when winter is over...

A crippled Stark kid in a cave will not be King of Westeros. Sorry, not buying it. He is becoming the old gods. I forget the line exactly, but he wants to run and the 3EC says you can't, but you'll fly. Godhood.

"It has been revealed"... nope. Sorry, anything revealed to this point is misdirection :) The reason we don't have a book is cause George had to change the ending from the shows. I'm kidding, but seriously... Hard no for Bran as King.

Yeah, Arya has been through some serious shit. Without a doubt, it has effected her. Agree with you on this one I do. (best Yoda voice). Nothing makes me think she will forsake vengeance, does any other character in the whole series keep a kill list memorized. I honestly can't see her meeting up with Stoneheart and not killing her, which may be mercy I guess, time will tell.

This last paragraph of yours made me chuckle. ummm. what ? In what way ( please describe ) did I ignore her journey? Me saying her journey wasn't static was in response to another post. Although maybe you didn't read my original post describing Sansa to this point. I looked at milestones of her path and looked at where she was now, and the most likely path to power from where she is sitting right now in the Vale. (at least that's how it happened in my mind, lol,  and I could be wrong). As for projecting her path, my overall point was, after all she has been through, she is closer to being a player than at any time in the series, right where she is. Her path doesn't need to diverge much from where she is now. There are multiple paths for her to get power, In my opinion her going north to get it is the least likely, with the most obstacles. 

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8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

She will be, that's the whole point, and why she was spirited away to KL under Cersei and LF and has absolutely nothing to do with Barbrey or Wyman.

I think that the larger point that @Springwatch (correct me if I am wrong) was trying to make is that Sansa's skillset does not limit her to King's Landing. The North has its own games of thrones that is not dissimilar from the game played in King's Landing.

Arya is learning how to play the game of faces in Braavos. At its core, there is no difference between the game of faces and the game of thrones. The Hound says as much when he tells Sansa that she is a bad liar and that if she continues to fail at lying, she's doomed.

  • Daenerys is unable to tell who is lying to her and to what end in Meereen and it almost destroyed her and everything she has worked so hard for.
  • Cersei's belief that everyone is lying and plotting against her is a big part of the reason why she is in this friendless, desperate situation
  • Ned - despite his being a good liar - didn't know when to lie and when to tell the truth and he was beheaded.
  • Lysa's inability to be quiet and keep a stiff upper lip is what got her thrown out of the Moon Door.
  • Tywin should've known better: instead of goading Tyrion with wherever whores go, he should've placated him...even if it was untrue.
  • If Aeron had been more secretive about his intentions to turn the smallfolk against Euron, then he might not in a special kind of hell right now.
  • Varys is a damn good liar and the only reason why anyone would know what he is really up to and what his true motives are is if he directly told them.

I say all this to say that the game of thrones is universal. It is not a phenomena that occurs only in King's Landing.

Sansa can go to Winterfell and intrigue just as well as she can go to King's Landing, Sunspear or the Gates of the Moon and intrigue there.

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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that the larger point that @Springwatch (correct me if I am wrong) was trying to make is that Sansa's skillset does not limit her to King's Landing. The North has its own games of thrones that is not dissimilar from the game played in King's Landing.

And that would be completely wrong as the text takes pains to explore and point out.

56 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

the story cannot continue to fracture, it will have to move into a unifying stage. I see her using the levers of power she will acquire to pull things together. Her influence on Dany will be as a peace maker, with the larger threat in mind.

I feel this is what D&D's comprehension of the text was. What they wanted to happen and so forced to happen.

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6 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

I think we have to differentiate between King of Winter, King of Winterfell, and King of Westeros. Jon will be King of Winter- basically for the fight against the Others. I don't think he would "Dance" against his family and I don't think he ends up with Winterfell. He will rule during winter, and when winter is over...

 

Jon will be dead before winter is over. I don't think he's surviving the series. But whatever, I'll play ball.

When winter is over, he'll move on to being the King of Westeros as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

In any case, the King of Winter is the King in the North.

When the Starks ruled as kings, they were called both the Kings of Winter and the Kings in the North. They are interchangeable terms.

And the King of Winter (or the King in the North) is the King of Winterfell. Winterfell is part of his domains as much as Barrowton, White Harbor and Last Hearth are. Moreover, Winterfell is the seat of the King of Winter. So, calling someone the King of Winterfell would be the same thing as calling them the King of Winterfell.

Unless, of course, the King of Winterfell would only be ruling the lands sworn directly to Winterfell. Otherwise, the King of Winterfell would be a petty king just the the Darklyn kings of Duskendale.

 

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

And that would be completely wrong as the text takes pains to explore and point out.

How does the text takes pain to explore and point out that there is no game of thrones in the North?

 

How do you explain the games that Roose Bolton, Stannis Baratheon and Wyman Manderly are playing?

There is no real difference between fArya and fAegon: both (if fAegon is truly fake) are pretenders and usurpers, taking the claim of someone else. The Hornwood inheritance crisis is something that can and does happen south of the Neck. Else we would not have the Darry inheritance crisis.

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16 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

And that would be completely wrong as the text takes pains to explore and point out.

I feel this is what D&D's comprehension of the text was. What they wanted to happen and so forced to happen.

Could be @chrisdaw, but forget "forced" for a minute. Any / Every story has to come together at some point. Endless division and fracturing leads no where. It has to come together eventually.

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6 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Could be @chrisdaw, but forget "forced" for a minute. Any / Every story has to come together at some point. Endless division and fracturing leads no where. It has to come together eventually.

The Dance of Dragons is coming which will be the biggest most destabilising event yet of the series. Dany hot off her Meereen arc of dragons plant no trees isn't coming to Westeros a unifier. It isn't the art of peace making Sansa has been learning for 5 books. You're thinking in terms of 8 seasons whereas 16 would be closer.

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29 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I've already done this earlier in this topic.

And it's been refuted. @Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 did a great job of highlighting the fact that the game of thrones played by northmen played a part in the death of Robb Stark and the fall of Winterfell.

It's not like the northern lords helped the Night's Watch when the wildlings came. And they didn't listen to the Night's Watch warnings about the Others either.

They were more concerned about who was going to marry Lady Donella and why so-and-so didn't show up to the harvest feast.

If that's not a game of thrones, I don't know what is.

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1 minute ago, Northern Sword said:

I think we have to differentiate between King of Winter, King of Winterfell, and King of Westeros. Jon will be King of Winter- basically for the fight against the Others. I don't think he would "Dance" against his family and I don't think he ends up with Winterfell. He will rule during winter, and when winter is over...

Kings of WInter was the title the Starks originally held, when their kingdom was just one of many in the North. Eventually they subjugated all other Northern kingdoms and ;later began calling themselves Kings in the North. But that was only a few centuries before Aegon's conquests. For thousands of years they were the Kings of Winter. So if Jon is King of Winter, he won't be taking up some new position, he'd simply become (under an archaic name) the King in the North. As for Lord of Winterfell (not King of Winterfell, there was never such a thing) this is the title of the ruler of Winterfell and all the land directly sworn to Winterfell. This position has always been held by the Starks as well, so when there was a King of Winter (or King in the North), that king was also Lord of Winterfell. However, Lord of Winterfell is too minor a title for a king, so the old Stark kings didn't use it. It's how the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms don't call themselves "Lords of King's Landing" though they obviously hold that position. So if there is a new King in the North, he'll also be Lord of Winterfell. And if Rickon (and not Bran) is ever found, this will be him, not Jon Snow. You yourself admit that he won't "dance" against his family, but usurping his brother's birthright would be exactly that. Jon might still rule, but it would be as regent to Rickon, not in his own right.

 

14 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

A crippled Stark kid in a cave will not be King of Westeros. Sorry, not buying it. He is becoming the old gods. I forget the line exactly, but he wants to run and the 3EC says you can't, but you'll fly. Godhood.

"It has been revealed"... nope. Sorry, anything revealed to this point is misdirection :) The reason we don't have a book is cause George had to change the ending from the shows. I'm kidding, but seriously... Hard no for Bran as King.

I don't see why this would be changed. GRRM has always been adamant about his original ending being fixed and the fact that the show did this bit badly is no reason for him to change his mind.

 

14 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Yeah, Arya has been through some serious shit. Without a doubt, it has effected her. Agree with you on this one I do. (best Yoda voice). Nothing makes me think she will forsake vengeance, does any other character in the whole series keep a kill list memorized. I honestly can't see her meeting up with Stoneheart and not killing her, which may be mercy I guess, time will tell.

The list has been more of a prayer than Arya's guide in life. When she was dealing with all the horrors in the war zone of the Riverlands it was a prayer to give her strength to survive. Now it's a prayer that allows to keep her identity. Otherwise while she was on the run, her main aim was always to return home and reunite her family and she pursued vengeance only when the opportunity arose. She certainly never tried to seek out the targets on her list. In Braavos, she seemingly gave up the aim of returning home, but this was mainly because she no longer saw this as possible. If however returning home ever becomes realistic at some point, this would again become primary aim, with vengeance again relegated to actions of opportunity. But if changes so much that vengeance ever becomes her primary motivation, as you seem to argue, then it's almost inevitable that she'd encounter Lady Stoneheart at some point. She of course wouldn't kill her (what has that do with vengeance), but rather join her on her own quest of vengeance. But she'll eventually find out that vengeance by itself helps no one and is against the foundations of her character (it's pursuit of justice, not vengeance that has always been Arya's strongest motivation) and give up on vengeance in favor of what she initially set out to do - return home.

 

14 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

This last paragraph of yours made me chuckle. ummm. what ? In what way ( please describe ) did I ignore her journey? Me saying her journey wasn't static was in response to another post. Although maybe you didn't read my original post describing Sansa to this point. I looked at milestones of her path and looked at where she was now, and the most likely path to power from where she is sitting right now in the Vale. (at least that's how it happened in my mind, lol,  and I could be wrong). As for projecting her path, my overall point was, after all she has been through, she is closer to being a player than at any time in the series, right where she is. Her path doesn't need to diverge much from where she is now. There are multiple paths for her to get power, In my opinion her going north to get it is the least likely, with the most obstacles. 

You gave Sansa's attitude in the first book - wanting to leave Winterfell, asking her father to stay in King's Landing as an indication that even then her path pointed south. But the problem with this view is that since then Sansa has undergone a significant character development which means that it makes little sense to base her path on her outlook then. Unless of course you ignore all these character developments.

As for your original idea about how Sansa's aim is now to gain power and the best way to do so would be in the Vale, I disagree on both points. It's very clear that any desire of power is mainly due to power being her best bet to survive and achieve some level of security and stability in her life. On the contrast, what Sansa truly wishes for- even if she thinks that this is now impossible - is a return to her home and her family. But if conditions change and she's actually able to return North, everything about her current character indicates that she would gladly abandon any power in the Vale to be able to return home. And this would be the case even if she had no power in the North, since it's not yearning to rule the North that is her primary motivation to return there. As for the second point, Sansa has no real power base in the Vale. Currently any power she has is due to Littlefinger's machinations, which seem to be build on far less stable foundations than it seems at first glance. If she wants to build her own power base in the Vale, she'd most likely have to marry Harry the Heir and/pr work with the Vale Lords to overthrow Littlefinger, which almost certainly involves revealing her real identity. The first is a dubious prospect at best - it's based on a detailed plan revealed by Littlefinger and plans revealed in advance usually fail in these books. The second means revealing herself to a group of Lords many of whom would prefer sending  her to Cersei rather than helping her while many of the rest will hold her responsible for Littlefinger's crimes. In contrast in the North, she's the lawful heir (as long as Bran and Rickon are missing) and when the Boltons and their allies are overthrown, she would receive support from Northern Lords simply due to her name. So if she actually wanted power, the North is a far more promising prospect than trying to take over a land where she has no true claim.

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22 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

And it's been refuted.

Explicit text was denied and after that there's nowhere to go. As is the theme with Sansa fans. Sansa is literally thinking in Cersei quotes and schemes up for Littlefinger, but apparently she's nothing like them and ready to follow in the footsteps of Manderly and Lady Dustin... with whom she has nothing to do with. It's just mind numbing.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

More than the Long Night?

Yet.

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51 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Explicit text was denied and after that there's nowhere to go. As is the theme with Sansa fans. Sansa is literally thinking in Cersei quotes and schemes up for Littlefinger, but apparently she's nothing like them and ready to follow in the footsteps of Manderly and Lady Dustin... with whom she has nothing to do with. It's just mind numbing.

For example?

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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Cersei is far from the only one to use this phrase. Seems to commonly occur (obviously) when someone little (either by size or age) is acting foolishly. If this is evidence supposed to show how Sansa is becoming like Cersei, it's far from convincing.

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1 hour ago, GMantis said:

Cersei is far from the only one to use this phrase. Seems to commonly occur (obviously) when someone little (either by size or age) is acting foolishly. If this is evidence supposed to show how Sansa is becoming like Cersei, it's far from convincing.

Yes, the text doesn't convince Sansa fans of anything, I'm aware of this.

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

Yes, the text doesn't convince Sansa fans of anything, I'm aware of this.

Considering the long discussion in this very thread (see pages three to four) where a poster refused to accept the plain meaning of a simple statement because it made Sansa look better, perhaps this is an accusation you should not throw out so lightly. Sansa might have picked up the phrase from Cersei, but it's just as possible that Sansa (as the other five characters using this phrase) was using it to describe someone little acting foolish. Why is the former more likely than the later?

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18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

She will be, that's the whole point, and why she was spirited away to KL under Cersei and LF and has absolutely nothing to do with Barbrey or Wyman.

 

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Explicit text was denied and after that there's nowhere to go. As is the theme with Sansa fans. Sansa is literally thinking in Cersei quotes and schemes up for Littlefinger, but apparently she's nothing like them and ready to follow in the footsteps of Manderly and Lady Dustin... with whom she has nothing to do with. It's just mind numbing.

Yet.

Manderley and Dustin have good political sense, Sansa doesn't have to study at their feet to resemble them in that.

I find this whole theory of Sansa's impressionability really odd. It's like, she's so malleable that a short time with Cersei or LF makes her exactly like them, with no critical awareness or sense of self at all. But at the same time, she's so brazen that Ned and Cat's values made no impression, in spite of her spending almost her entire life with them.

This doesn't fit the text. Sansa does reject Cersei's teaching to rule by fear and seduction. And she can't admire Cersei (who was ready to have her killed the night of the Blackwater), or LF (who molests her).

On the other hand, Sansa is very clear who her role models are: she wants to be brave like Robb, and strong like her lady mother. She wants to be a Stark.

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15 hours ago, GMantis said:

Kings of WInter was the title the Starks originally held, when their kingdom was just one of many in the North. Eventually they subjugated all other Northern kingdoms and ;later began calling themselves Kings in the North. But that was only a few centuries before Aegon's conquests. For thousands of years they were the Kings of Winter. So if Jon is King of Winter, he won't be taking up some new position, he'd simply become (under an archaic name) the King in the North. As for Lord of Winterfell (not King of Winterfell, there was never such a thing) this is the title of the ruler of Winterfell and all the land directly sworn to Winterfell. This position has always been held by the Starks as well, so when there was a King of Winter (or King in the North), that king was also Lord of Winterfell. However, Lord of Winterfell is too minor a title for a king, so the old Stark kings didn't use it. It's how the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms don't call themselves "Lords of King's Landing" though they obviously hold that position. So if there is a new King in the North, he'll also be Lord of Winterfell. And if Rickon (and not Bran) is ever found, this will be him, not Jon Snow. You yourself admit that he won't "dance" against his family, but usurping his brother's birthright would be exactly that. Jon might still rule, but it would be as regent to Rickon, not in his own right.

 

I don't see why this would be changed. GRRM has always been adamant about his original ending being fixed and the fact that the show did this bit badly is no reason for him to change his mind.

 

The list has been more of a prayer than Arya's guide in life. When she was dealing with all the horrors in the war zone of the Riverlands it was a prayer to give her strength to survive. Now it's a prayer that allows to keep her identity. Otherwise while she was on the run, her main aim was always to return home and reunite her family and she pursued vengeance only when the opportunity arose. She certainly never tried to seek out the targets on her list. In Braavos, she seemingly gave up the aim of returning home, but this was mainly because she no longer saw this as possible. If however returning home ever becomes realistic at some point, this would again become primary aim, with vengeance again relegated to actions of opportunity. But if changes so much that vengeance ever becomes her primary motivation, as you seem to argue, then it's almost inevitable that she'd encounter Lady Stoneheart at some point. She of course wouldn't kill her (what has that do with vengeance), but rather join her on her own quest of vengeance. But she'll eventually find out that vengeance by itself helps no one and is against the foundations of her character (it's pursuit of justice, not vengeance that has always been Arya's strongest motivation) and give up on vengeance in favor of what she initially set out to do - return home.

 

You gave Sansa's attitude in the first book - wanting to leave Winterfell, asking her father to stay in King's Landing as an indication that even then her path pointed south. But the problem with this view is that since then Sansa has undergone a significant character development which means that it makes little sense to base her path on her outlook then. Unless of course you ignore all these character developments.

As for your original idea about how Sansa's aim is now to gain power and the best way to do so would be in the Vale, I disagree on both points. It's very clear that any desire of power is mainly due to power being her best bet to survive and achieve some level of security and stability in her life. On the contrast, what Sansa truly wishes for- even if she thinks that this is now impossible - is a return to her home and her family. But if conditions change and she's actually able to return North, everything about her current character indicates that she would gladly abandon any power in the Vale to be able to return home. And this would be the case even if she had no power in the North, since it's not yearning to rule the North that is her primary motivation to return there. As for the second point, Sansa has no real power base in the Vale. Currently any power she has is due to Littlefinger's machinations, which seem to be build on far less stable foundations than it seems at first glance. If she wants to build her own power base in the Vale, she'd most likely have to marry Harry the Heir and/pr work with the Vale Lords to overthrow Littlefinger, which almost certainly involves revealing her real identity. The first is a dubious prospect at best - it's based on a detailed plan revealed by Littlefinger and plans revealed in advance usually fail in these books. The second means revealing herself to a group of Lords many of whom would prefer sending  her to Cersei rather than helping her while many of the rest will hold her responsible for Littlefinger's crimes. In contrast in the North, she's the lawful heir (as long as Bran and Rickon are missing) and when the Boltons and their allies are overthrown, she would receive support from Northern Lords simply due to her name. So if she actually wanted power, the North is a far more promising prospect than trying to take over a land where she has no true claim.

Is what you were say about the Stark Titles KitN and such actually written somewhere ? I've read everything there is to read of ASOIAF, and i don't recall that level of detail anywhere? I always felt it was a blurry line as to what defined a King of Winter / Lord of Winterfell. When I was  using it I was envisioning a warleader type of position. A leader to unite all the factions for a specific purpose, similar to The Mance. For the Record "So if Jon is King of Winter, he won't be taking up some new position, he'd simply become (under an archaic name) the King in the North." That completely sums up my thought. But by saying King of Winter, I think there is a finite end date for him. Whether that leads to death \ Heir to Winterfell or Heir to the Iron Throne is still up for debate in my own head. It like a "lets survive winter, then we will worry about everything later type of thing. And yes, he wont usurp Rickon in my mind, but Rickon is in NO position what so ever to lead the fight at his age, so it will NOT be him. We also agree on Bran not being in the equation. So by making Jon King of Winter ( finite position ) and Rickon, Lord of Winterfell, with a potential to be King in the North once winter is over and he is older is my take. Separating the titles takes care of that. Although giving Jon the Regency would have the same effect, just not as cool as a title as King of Winter.

I know what GRRM said... I just don't like it.... or the shows ending... you could be right... or it could be misdirection :) lol

You say prayer, I say Kill list. same same. Now I fully agree Arya has been actually trying to get back home or to her family since... what, Ned's Execution. Her path has always been on that track. So I think this will continue. But when you think of who she wants to get back to, it has NEVER been Sansa. The equal opportunist killer is accurate too. To this point. But with her newly acquired skills, there is no telling how it could change. Her identity is more wrapped up in Needle then her list imo. But the kill list has never gone away. The North Remembers. So, I don't disagree with your take on that. To this point she hasn't gone out of her way to get people on the list. But who is to say once she gets back she doesn't go to the Twins to admire the architecture and if there are Frey's there... so be it... Full disagreement concerning Lady Stoneheart. Arya is more likely to kill her(as mercy) than join her imo.

I like this, (it's pursuit of justice, not vengeance that has always been Arya's strongest motivation) and I totally agree, her path took her the way it did because she could not find justice anywhere, so she became her own justice. The vengeance may play itself out once her list is gone, I think in her mind there is now a blurred line between Justice and Vengeance. At heart I don't think she is evil, but her survival instinct has made her into what she is now. I eagerly wait to see what happens with her.

Sansa's character with out a doubt was pointed south as early as the first few chapters of the first book, and really didn't change too much. While in KL she betrayed Ol' Dead Ned to Cersei in order to stay. Yes. She has grown and matured significantly since, in no way am I ignoring that development. But her everyday thoughts now are about playing the game. She absolutely is nostalgic about Winterfell while building the snow castle. But I didn't get an immediacy to those thoughts, as she "has to get back" it more of a "oh it would be nice to see Jon" . At least that is how I read it.

Sansa will be a player, I feel this is the inevitable journey for her and she is close right now. She has been groomed for it and is now finally in a position to act(or will be shortly) Whether her path to power comes in the Vale, Harrenhal and the Riverlands, or even The Rock(admittedly that last one has a lot of dominos that would have to fall first) To say Sansa truly wishes to go home is not accurate, at least how I read it, so agree to disagree. If she does go home She would have to overcome a Kings Will, and her brothers claims. She has been disinherited of Winterfell. The lady of Lannister will not rule the north. Of this, I am certain.

The issue of her identity Stark / Natural daughter of the Lord Protector of the Vale and ruler of Harrenhal and the Riverlands is one of the things I am most interested in reading about...hopefully soon. Sansa has been dull as a character in my mind up to very recently in the story. Now that she is in this vortex of power and intrigue. I don't see her leaving. Her path to power is within her grasp right where she is. 

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