What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[Springwatch]

Just now, Northern Sword said:

While in KL she betrayed Ol' Dead Ned to Cersei in order to stay. Yes. She has grown and matured significantly since, in no way am I ignoring that development

She did not betray Ned. She wanted to stay in KL, with her father, living in the Tower of the Hand, like before. She knew nothing that could hurt Ned.

[GMantis]

13 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Is what you were say about the Stark Titles KitN and such actually written somewhere ? I've read everything there is to read of ASOIAF, and i don't recall that level of detail anywhere? I always felt it was a blurry line as to what defined a King of Winter / Lord of Winterfell. When I was  using it I was envisioning a warleader type of position. A leader to unite all the factions for a specific purpose, similar to The Mance. For the Record "So if Jon is King of Winter, he won't be taking up some new position, he'd simply become (under an archaic name) the King in the North." That completely sums up my thought. But by saying King of Winter, I think there is a finite end date for him. Whether that leads to death \ Heir to Winterfell or Heir to the Iron Throne is still up for debate in my own head. It like a "lets survive winter, then we will worry about everything later type of thing.

 About the ancient Starks there is material in A World of Ice and Fire:

Quote

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North.

In fact the older title is not forgotten: Maege Mormont salutes Robb as King of Winter.

13 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

And yes, he wont usurp Rickon in my mind, but Rickon is in NO position what so ever to lead the fight at his age, so it will NOT be him. We also agree on Bran not being in the equation. So by making Jon King of Winter ( finite position ) and Rickon, Lord of Winterfell, with a potential to be King in the North once winter is over and he is older is my take. Separating the titles takes care of that. Although giving Jon the Regency would have the same effect, just not as cool as a title as King of Winter.

It's not in Jon's character to take titles that don't belong to him. He'll be content to be regent to Rickon and hold all power in fact, if not in name.

 

13 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

You say prayer, I say Kill list. same same. Now I fully agree Arya has been actually trying to get back home or to her family since... what, Ned's Execution. Her path has always been on that track. So I think this will continue. But when you think of who she wants to get back to, it has NEVER been Sansa. The equal opportunist killer is accurate too. To this point. But with her newly acquired skills, there is no telling how it could change. Her identity is more wrapped up in Needle then her list imo. But the kill list has never gone away. The North Remembers. So, I don't disagree with your take on that. To this point she hasn't gone out of her way to get people on the list. But who is to say once she gets back she doesn't go to the Twins to admire the architecture and if there are Frey's there... so be it... Full disagreement concerning Lady Stoneheart. Arya is more likely to kill her(as mercy) than join her imo.

Arya has in fact expressed a wish to reunite with Sansa a few times:

Quote

Arya sipped at her tankard cautiously, between spoonfuls of pie still warm from the oven. Her father sometimes let them have a cup of beer, she remembered. Sansa used to make a face at the taste and say that wine was ever so much finer, but Arya had liked it well enough. It made her sad to think of Sansa and her father.

Quote

When she thought of seeing Robb's face again Arya had to bite her lip. And I want to see Jon too, and Bran and Rickon, and Mother. Even Sansa . . . I'll kiss her and beg her pardons like a proper lady, she'll like that.

Quote

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa.

As for Lady Stoneheart, I don't see why Arya would want to kill her mother. She wanted Thoros to bring back her father, even after she saw the effect of his resurrection. And she pulled out her mother from the river while warged in Nymeria.

 

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Sansa's character with out a doubt was pointed south as early as the first few chapters of the first book, and really didn't change too much. While in KL she betrayed Ol' Dead Ned to Cersei in order to stay. Yes. She has grown and matured significantly since, in no way am I ignoring that development. But her everyday thoughts now are about playing the game. She absolutely is nostalgic about Winterfell while building the snow castle. But I didn't get an immediacy to those thoughts, as she "has to get back" it more of a "oh it would be nice to see Jon" . At least that is how I read it.

As has already been pointed out, she didn't betray her father. And you say that you're not ignoring her development, yet keep doing exactly that. As if the Sansa who wanted Cersei's help is anyway comparable to the current Sansa, so that her character stood for at the time is any reflections on her current outlook. It's not correct to say that her character was pointed south as early as the first few chapters of the first book, rather her character was pointed south only in the first few chapters of the first book. As early as her sixth chapter we have:

Quote

The hot water made her think of Winterfell, and she took strength from that.

Quote

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and fields and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

Yes, her everyday thoughts are now on the political game. But this is what is important for her now, in her day-to-day life. And she considers her home and family to be hopelessly lost: Winterfell sacked, her parents and siblings (except Jon, unreachable at the Wall) all gone. So not surprisingly, she avoids thinking about this. And yet consider just her last chapter (the sample chapter in Winds): even amid all the work she's putting in working on her and Littlefinger's schemes, the memories of Winterfell and her family still keep surfacing. And if going home ever becomes realistic, everything shows that this part of her character arc will again come center stage.

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Sansa will be a player, I feel this is the inevitable journey for her and she is close right now. She has been groomed for it and is now finally in a position to act(or will be shortly) Whether her path to power comes in the Vale, Harrenhal and the Riverlands, or even The Rock(admittedly that last one has a lot of dominos that would have to fall first) To say Sansa truly wishes to go home is not accurate, at least how I read it, so agree to disagree. If she does go home She would have to overcome a Kings Will, and her brothers claims. She has been disinherited of Winterfell. The lady of Lannister will not rule the north. Of this, I am certain.

Petyr Baelish has no power base in the Riverlands. He could only serve there as the figurehead for the Lannister regime. which is already shaky and looks likely to continue losing ground. And the last thing Sansa would want is to be in a place dominated by the Lannisters. As for the Vale, as I pointed out, Lilttlefinger's (and by extension Sansa's) powerbase there is far from secure, his grandiose plans dubious. Sansa may yet play some role in the politics of the Vale, but she's unlikely to get in a leading position there; rather it's more likely that she'll use whatever influence she gains into rallying support for the North among the Vale lords.

And if Sansa doesn't really want to go home, what does she truly wish for? Apart from thinking that she'd be a better queen than Cersei, there is no yearning, no hope for gaining power - even now when she's becoming involved in political maneuvers. Even the fact that she's been disinherited in the North should not change that: Sansa would almost certainly prefer to live disinherited in Winterfell under her brother's rule rather than enjoy whatever dubious power she has in the Vale. This might even be a relief for her, since she won't pursued just for her claim. And she might not even lose power in the North. The Will could easily be set aside, since the circumstances now are vastly different from those when it was written. Sansa is no longer a captive of the Lannisters,Tyrion is a fugitive pursued by those same Lannisters, the marriage could be set aside, etc. And Bran and Rickon might not return for a long time as well.

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

The issue of her identity Stark / Natural daughter of the Lord Protector of the Vale and ruler of Harrenhal and the Riverlands is one of the things I am most interested in reading about...hopefully soon. Sansa has been dull as a character in my mind up to very recently in the story. Now that she is in this vortex of power and intrigue. I don't see her leaving. Her path to power is within her grasp right where she is. 

This would explain how you've managed to miss so much about her character...

 

[chrisdaw]

16 hours ago, GMantis said:

Sansa might have picked up the phrase from Cersei, but it's just as possible that Sansa (as the other five characters using this phrase) was using it to describe someone little acting foolish. Why is the former more likely than the later?

Because I'm not starting from a point of myopic Sansa defense and fandom and I understand GRRM chooses words very deliberately and meaningfully. I suggest you put more stock into the actual text and less in scatter brain conspiracies about the release of character's sample chapters suggesting paralleling arcs or whatever the hell.

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I find this whole theory of Sansa's impressionability really odd. It's like, she's so malleable that a short time with Cersei or LF makes her exactly like them, with no critical awareness or sense of self at all. But at the same time, she's so brazen that Ned and Cat's values made no impression, in spite of her spending almost her entire life with them.

That's because you don't take what the text gives you, you want Sansa to be an honourable Stark power player of the north and everything that doesn't fit that narrative is ignored or wished away as meaningless. It's not meaningless, it is acutely the point. Sansa's direwolf, the symbol of house Stark died because she lied and sided with southern characters, she became the pawn and protege of southern political players, is poisoning her nephew for political expediency and thinking in Cersei terms. These were not included by accident, they're part of her arc, integral and have meaning.

But instead of paying heed to these things from Sansa's arc you're pulling Manderly and Dustin out of nowhere. Just mind numbing.

Cat and Ned would dislike the deceitful way she's taken up the character Alayne, hate the game she's playing with Harry and would recoil in horror to the way she's risking Robert's health in pursuit of a political plan. She is acting contrary to the values of her parents in multiple and extreme ways. Now come hand-wave it all away with nothing relating to the text.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Because I'm not starting from a point of myopic Sansa defense and fandom and I understand GRRM chooses words very deliberately and meaningfully. I suggest you put more stock into the actual text and less in scatter brain conspiracies about the release of character's sample chapters suggesting paralleling arcs or whatever the hell.

That's because you don't take what the text gives you, you want Sansa to be an honourable Stark power player of the north and everything that doesn't fit that narrative is ignored or wished away as meaningless. It's not meaningless, it is acutely the point. Sansa's direwolf, the symbol of house Stark died because she lied and sided with southern characters, she became the pawn and protege of southern political players, is poisoning her nephew for political expediency and thinking in Cersei terms. These were not included by accident, they're part of her arc, integral and have meaning.

But instead of paying heed to these things from Sansa's arc you're pulling Manderly and Dustin out of nowhere. Just mind numbing.

Cat and Ned would dislike the deceitful way she's taken up the character Alayne, hate the game she's playing with Harry and would recoil in horror to the way she's risking Robert's health in pursuit of a political plan. She is acting contrary to the values of her parents in multiple and extreme ways. Now come hand-wave it all away with nothing relating to the text.

Speaking of myopic; you refuse to accept that Sansa has changed since the start of the story.  Everything I've seen suggests that she desp8ises 'Cersei and what she stands for.  When Cersei gave her advice that she should be feared, Sansa immediately rejected it in her own mind.  Cersei is cruel, narcissistic, paranoid, and not nearly as bright as she thinks she is.  Sansa is none of this.  She couldn't be cruel if she tried, and if anything, underestimates her own intellect.  You keep saying she is aping Cersei, yet refuse to provide any evidence of this fact.   As for Sweetrobin, I think she regards the maester as being overprotective and overcautious, and not looking at larger issues, such as Robert's credibility as a lord if his ailments become too obvious.  It is also apparent she knows little about sweetsleep.

She's taken up the character of Alayne because she has to.  She obviously can't be herself; it's too dangerous.  As for Harry, I don't see that going anywhere, and I don't think Sansa has much interest in remarriage at this time.  She's tired of being used a a pawn in other people's marriage games. As for the Vale, it is a place to learn the art of politics, but she has no real connection or interest in it.  Her connections and interests all lie North.

[GMantis]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Because I'm not starting from a point of myopic Sansa defense and fandom and I understand GRRM chooses words very deliberately and meaningfully. I suggest you put more stock into the actual text and less in scatter brain conspiracies about the release of character's sample chapters suggesting paralleling arcs or whatever the hell.

On the other hand you're starting from the point of fitting the text after your theories rather than the other way around. GRRM choosing words very deliberately and meaningfully is precisely why he wouldn't have Sansa use a phrase that is also used by multiple other characters if he wanted to highlight her similarity with Cersei.

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That's because you don't take what the text gives you, you want Sansa to be an honourable Stark power player of the north and everything that doesn't fit that narrative is ignored or wished away as meaningless. It's not meaningless, it is acutely the point. Sansa's direwolf, the symbol of house Stark died because she lied and sided with southern characters, she became the pawn and protege of southern political players, is poisoning her nephew for political expediency and thinking in Cersei terms. These were not included by accident, they're part of her arc, integral and have meaning.

You're not really in the position to accuse others of ignoring the text if you're seriously going to make this claim, as it requires a ridiculous level of text misinterpretation. Claiming that Sansa is poisoning Robert requires ignoring the fact that she learned about the plot to replace him with Harold Hardying only after she administered the sweetsleep.

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Cat and Ned would dislike the deceitful way she's taken up the character Alayne, hate the game she's playing with Harry and would recoil in horror to the way she's risking Robert's health in pursuit of a political plan. She is acting contrary to the values of her parents in multiple and extreme ways. Now come hand-wave it all away with nothing relating to the text.

Cat and Ned would realize that, due to their mistakes, their daughter is in a position where she has to conceal her identity to survive. Also they would recognize that they have little room to criticize Sansa considering that far from "acting contrary to the values of her parents", she's in her current situation because they themselves betrothed their daughter to Joffrey for political expediency:

Quote

Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion.

Ned wanted Sansa to marry Joffrey just to help him expose the Lannisters and yet he's supposed to be horrified by Sansa charming Harry?

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That's because you don't take what the text gives you, you want Sansa to be an honourable Stark power player of the north

Well. For the ending, it would be nice you know? It's possible to have too many mad queens/great ladies, after all.

But generally, I'm the person who thinks Sansa is going to get possessed by the Others (or whatever skinchangers are out there). Honestly there's more in the text to support that than Sansa goes evil queen.

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

and everything that doesn't fit that narrative is ignored or wished away as meaningless. It's not meaningless, it is acutely the point. Sansa's direwolf, the symbol of house Stark died because she lied and sided with southern characters,

No. That's just someone's theory you read on the internet somewhere. What the text supports is that Cersei was motivated to get rid of the wolves anyway:

1. The queen shuddered. "There is something unnatural about those animals ," she said. "They are dangerous. I will not have any of them coming south with us."
2. Joff tormented Arya, and got bitten by her wolf. (He's a bully, that's just how he acts.)
3. Sooner or later, Joff is going to torment Sansa.

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

she became the pawn and protege of southern political players, is poisoning her nephew for political expediency and thinking in Cersei terms. These were not included by accident, they're part of her arc, integral and have meaning.

Definitely a pawn. The rest has been answered already, but also, LF has no motive to poison SR at this time. He hasn't got Harry yet.

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

But instead of paying heed to these things from Sansa's arc you're pulling Manderly and Dustin out of nowhere. Just mind numbing.

This is now officially strawman.

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Cat and Ned would dislike the deceitful way she's taken up the character Alayne, hate the game she's playing with Harry and would recoil in horror to the way she's risking Robert's health in pursuit of a political plan. She is acting contrary to the values of her parents in multiple and extreme ways. Now come hand-wave it all away with nothing relating to the text.

Also answered above. And - Cat and Ned would be enraged with LF, whose pawn she is. LF has murdered two of his pawns (Dontos and Lysa) right in front of Sansa's eyes - no wonder she feels she has to keep him happy.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 2/1/2022 at 9:39 AM, Springwatch said:

 

Manderley and Dustin have good political sense, Sansa doesn't have to study at their feet to resemble them in that.

I find this whole theory of Sansa's impressionability really odd. It's like, she's so malleable that a short time with Cersei or LF makes her exactly like them, with no critical awareness or sense of self at all. But at the same time, she's so brazen that Ned and Cat's values made no impression, in spite of her spending almost her entire life with them.

This doesn't fit the text. Sansa does reject Cersei's teaching to rule by fear and seduction. And she can't admire Cersei (who was ready to have her killed the night of the Blackwater), or LF (who molests her).

On the other hand, Sansa is very clear who her role models are: she wants to be brave like Robb, and strong like her lady mother. She wants to be a Stark.

100% this

One thing about using seduction as a weapon (and something that Anne Boleyn understood) is that unless you marry the person you’re seducing, and are therefore bound to them in some permanent way, once you’ve had sex with them, you’ve lost all leverage. Cersei lost all leverage with Osney once she had sex with him, and Arianne’s manipulation of Arys didn’t last a day once she launched her queenmaker plot. I would hope that Sansa has better instincts than that. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:41 PM, chrisdaw said:

Because I'm not starting from a point of myopic Sansa defense and fandom and I understand GRRM chooses words very deliberately and meaningfully. I suggest you put more stock into the actual text and less in scatter brain conspiracies about the release of character's sample chapters suggesting paralleling arcs or whatever the hell.

That's because you don't take what the text gives you, you want Sansa to be an honourable Stark power player of the north and everything that doesn't fit that narrative is ignored or wished away as meaningless. It's not meaningless, it is acutely the point. Sansa's direwolf, the symbol of house Stark died because she lied and sided with southern characters, she became the pawn and protege of southern political players, is poisoning her nephew for political expediency and thinking in Cersei terms. These were not included by accident, they're part of her arc, integral and have meaning.

But instead of paying heed to these things from Sansa's arc you're pulling Manderly and Dustin out of nowhere. Just mind numbing.

Cat and Ned would dislike the deceitful way she's taken up the character Alayne, hate the game she's playing with Harry and would recoil in horror to the way she's risking Robert's health in pursuit of a political plan. She is acting contrary to the values of her parents in multiple and extreme ways. Now come hand-wave it all away with nothing relating to the text.

My reading with regards to Sweetrobin is that Sansa is deeply in denial about what LF’s doing to him. She thinks of him as “her little lord” and hopes he’ll live long enough to marry “if the gods are good.” Ned also disassociated quite a bit: there’s no way you can go years without thinking of Rhaegar while raising Rhaegar’s son unless you do.

As for Harry, keep in mind that Sansa believes she’s going to be spending the rest of her life with this guy. She wants him to like her for that reason.

The “little fool” line was depressing to me too, but we also see her show kindness to the Sunderlands, Myranda, Lothor, and the stuttering Waynwood boy in that chapter as well.

Ned and Cat would think that Littlefinger was manipulating their teenage daughter the same way he manipulated them. They would blame him, not Sansa.

[chrisdaw]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:26 PM, GMantis said:

You're not really in the position to accuse others of ignoring the text if you're seriously going to make this claim, as it requires a ridiculous level of text misinterpretation. Claiming that Sansa is poisoning Robert requires ignoring the fact that she learned about the plot to replace him with Harold Hardying only after she administered the sweetsleep.

You do not comprehend the point, which is an extension of not comprehending the text. Either Sansa understands or chooses to remain wilfully ignorant of the long term ill health effects of having Robert continually drugged into compliance. She continues to allow it, insists on it and relies upon it for convenience and the political ends of Petyr and herself.

That she is specifically poisoning him to kill him to be replaced by Harry is not what I wrote, that's what you made up in your head because you don't understand the text, it's adjacent but not what the text is getting at. Sansa prioritises the political needs of poisoning Robert into compliance over his long term health.

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As for Harry, keep in mind that Sansa believes she’s going to be spending the rest of her life with this guy. She wants him to like her for that reason.

The issue with Harry isn't that she likes him (does she even? Or is he just a political challenge that she's revelling in?), liking him is ok, it's that she's playing the game with him. She could be honest and honourable with him, instead she's playing hard to get refusing his favour to take him in and talking shit about his other lovers.

On 2/2/2022 at 3:23 PM, Nevets said:

As for the Vale, it is a place to learn the art of politics, but she has no real connection or interest in it.  Her connections and interests all lie North.

Sansa loves playing mistress of the Vale. She hasn't been so happy there as since Ned died. She loses herself running around the Vale with her friend just as if it were like Winterfell. She couldn't be prouder of having brought the houses all together to share in feasting, make merry in song and dance, and serve their little liege lord.

The text is telling you bluntly she's loving life now where she is. You're longing for Sansa in the north, not her.

We can basically boil down everything else you and everyone else has to say since my last post as "not her fault, Littlefinger!" It's just pure Sansa defence rather than any kind of analysis that would lead to an understanding of the text or character.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I just remembered that Ned spent years in the Eyrie at around the same age as Sansa is now. So her being away from the North shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

I think Sansa will end the series as the Lady of Winterfell in part because George said there’s never been a ruling lady in the North before—which is saying a lot when you consider that the Starks have been around for 8,000 years. Same with Asha ending the series on the Seastone Chair.

It is possible to rule without becoming like Littlefinger or Cersei; we were shown this over and over again in FnB. In the case of the women, this includes Rhaenys (both of them), Alyssa Velaryon, Alysanne, Sharis Footley, Alysanne Blackwood, Sabitha Frey, Johanna Lannister, etc. Alysanne was persecuted by Maegor as a child, Sharis was sexually assaulted, Johanna had to defend the Westerlands from the Ironborn. It didn’t turn any of them into cold-blooded monsters.

[Apoplexy]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The text is telling you bluntly she's loving life now where she is. You're longing for Sansa in the north, not her.

Lets say Sansa does enjoy being in the Vale (which i don't agree with, along with Sansa being cersei 2.0). How does that translate to her staying at the Vale? That would be like saying Dany had liked her life with Drogo so she stays with the dothraki and never leaves Essos.

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

Lets say Sansa does enjoy being in the Vale

Have you read the sample chapter? Fair enough if you haven't this isn't the discussion for you and it's more mine and everyone else's fault for having it here when it really belongs in the Alayne topic.

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Have you read the sample chapter? Fair enough if you haven't this isn't the discussion for you and it's more mine and everyone else's fault for having it here when it really belongs in the Alayne topic.

You really havent answered my question.

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

You really havent answered my question.

Sansa's not going to stay in the Vale. The point isn't that Sansa's found a new home in the Vale and is never going to leave, the point is that Sansa doesn't need the north to be happy and there's nothing drawing her there. She's found a new happy home to take the place of the north in the Vale.

Now I wish to address your text denial, have you read the sample chapter or not?

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Have you read the sample chapter? Fair enough if you haven't this isn't the discussion for you and it's more mine and everyone else's fault for having it here when it really belongs in the Alayne topic.

I recall that she had fond memories of running and playing at Winterfell with Arya and Jeyne Poole.  Her happy thoughts and memories are of the North and Winterfell.  She has no deep connection to the Vale and no reason to remain there once it's safe to leave. 

As for her being happiest there since Ned's death, she had nothing to be happy about at KL. She certainly has no good reason to go there.  It holds only enemies and bad memories. 

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I recall that she had fond memories of running and playing at Winterfell with Arya and Jeyne Poole.  Her happy thoughts and memories are of the North and Winterfell.  She has no deep connection to the Vale and no reason to remain there once it's safe to leave. 

As for her being happiest there since Ned's death, she had nothing to be happy about at KL. She certainly has no good reason to go there.  It holds only enemies and bad memories. 

So you recall what you want and forget the parts that don't suit you.

[Apoplexy]

2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa's not going to stay in the Vale. The point isn't that Sansa's found a new home in the Vale and is never going to leave, the point is that Sansa doesn't need the north to be happy and there's nothing drawing her there. She's found a new happy home to take the place of the north in the Vale.

Now I wish to address your text denial, have you read the sample chapter or not?

So by that logic, Dany should have been happy with the Dothraki. Sure, she wished to take back what her family lost, but she would get over it. She was probably happier with Drogo than she ever was with Viserys. In fact, she was relieved Viserys was killed.

And yes, I have read the chapter.

[chrisdaw]

Just now, Apoplexy said:

So by that logic, Dany should have been happy with the Dothraki. Sure, she wished to take back what her family lost, but she would get over it. She was probably happier with Drogo than she ever was with Viserys. In fact, she was relieved Viserys was killed.

And yes, I have read the chapter.

So reconcile for me the text literally saying Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again . . . and you not believing Sansa does enjoy being in the Vale. I mean what's the point in talking with someone about a text who just ignores anything they don't like? I have interest in discussing the text, not only the part of it you and those like you choose to acknowledge.

[Apoplexy]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

So reconcile for me the text literally saying Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again . . . and you not believing Sansa does enjoy being in the Vale. I mean what's the point in talking with someone about a text who just ignores anything they don't like? I have interest in discussing the text, not only the part of it you and those like you choose to acknowledge.

So you are denying that as per text, Dany seemed pretty happy with Drogo?

[chrisdaw]

2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

So you are denying that as per text, Dany seemed pretty happy with Drogo?

I'm not reading past your text denial, address it or don't address me.