What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[Apoplexy]

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Arya's will have to choose between being a vengeful assassin or a just Stark, like her father, because as we know from Ned, both identities are not congruent.

If Arya chooses revenge driven assassin and the pack accept that, then Arya will essentially have corrupted the pack and poor Ned would be turning in his grave because they're not the values he raised his children with. That would mean a negative arc, not just for Arya but the rest of the Starks too. On the other hand, if Arya turns from revenge and chooses the pack when her test comes, then she can have a positive arc.

It's the same for Sansa.

I think both her identities can co-exist. Every assassin does not have to be evil and bloodthirsty. Even politically savvy person does not have to be a corrupt, selfish plotter. It does not have to be one extreme or the other. There can be a tempered middle ground.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

We actually agree here. Sansa is on a similar journey. Instead of learning to be an assassin she is learning to be a plotter like Littlefinger of Cersei. But just like Arya, Sansa too will face a test. Plotter like Cersei or Stark like her father, because as we know from Ned that both identities are not congruent. I agree that she will not choose plotter and therefore will have a positive arc.

She can be honest and straightforward like Ned, but realize that you cannot be rigid. I see all the Starks realizing that nuance is key, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. That would be positive and an improvement.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Rickon is actually the only Stark I see having a negative arc. I think he will return to Winterfell with Davos and declare for Stannis because Stannis is offering vengeance against the Lannisters, and I think that will appeal to Rickon, which will lead him to destruction rather than salvation.

I don't see Rickon going dark. But he isn't a POV character. If any of the Starks were to get a negative arc, it would be Rickon.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That choice has been set up in every character's arc. There is a fundamental question every character must answer to resolve their arc, that's how arcs work.  That's where the conflict of the human heart comes from. The Starks have been set-up with a set of values as defined by Ned. The question is, can they learn and grow strong as characters without corrupting those ideals?

I think the Starks don't have to be exactly like Ned to not corrupt his ideals. Again, it does not have to be one extreme or the other.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

You're suggesting that when the cold wind blows the lone wolf and the pack survives, but where is the conflict or drama in that? Good drama means characters facing dilemmas and hard choices, and we've seen plenty of that already in the series to know that it's the author's style. Love or duty. Duty or Honor. Justice or vengeance. We see such dilemmas play out in every arc, that's what creates the conflict and the questions the characters wrestle with. These values are compared and contrasted during the characters journey, but there comes a day when everyone must choose.

If the Stark kids unite and work towards their unfinished business with the all of them supporting and backing each other, thats the pack surviving. Working as a pack does not have to mean they literally do everything together.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It is a possibility, I agree. However, it can be satisfied through Nymeria. Cersei, Gregor, Ser Illyn, Ser Meryn are all in King's Landing and they are the ones Arya names in her prayer. Her prayer is a device that lets us know the goal of her revenge quest. Cersei is going to be the last name on that list, and that's when Arya will face her final test, complete her revenge quest or remember she's a Stark. And we know it's unlikely that she'll complete her revenge quest as Cersei's fate is in the hands of another character.

I don't see Arya doing much as a skinchanger. Apparently all Starks have that ability in varying degrees, but Bran is likely to make most use of it. And just because Arya wants to kill everyone on her list, I'm not sure she is going to. Just like I'm not sure Brienne will be the one to kill Stannis.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

A question we should ask is, why is Jon being temporarily removed from the Winterfell plotline at this time? It's the same reason Bran is still north in Bloodraven's cave and the same reason Sansa is not going to be returning to Winterfell soon. This creates a window for Rickon to emerge and conclude his own arc, which I believe will be a negative arc created when he chooses Stannis and vengeance, that will act as a cautionary tale regarding the choices the other Starks will soon face. By that I mean that GRRM will show the reader the consequence of choosing incorrectly, using poor Rickon as an example, before similar choices arise for the other characters.

Jon will be removed from the WF plotline only if he is dead. I don't think he is dead. If he is, he will be resurrected pretty soon. I don't Stannis or any non Starks resolving the WF plot. The WF plot who controls WF. There has to be a Stark in WF and I just don't non Stark characters getting control of it before the Long Night.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The reward is there and Ser Shadrich is hunting the bounty. It's the vehicle to get Sansa back to King's Landing.

Shadrich will need a lot of resources and know how of terrain to get Sansa out of the Vale. I don't see it happening.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

@Apoplexy Well, I guess we just disagree on where the books are going. Nothing wrong with that. But may I just ask, when you talk about a Stark convergence in Winterfell before the Long Night, what do you see happening there?

[Apoplexy]

50 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

@Apoplexy Well, I guess we just disagree on where the books are going. Nothing wrong with that. But may I just ask, when you talk about a Stark convergence in Winterfell before the Long Night, what do you see happening there?

Oh, absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing. The whole point of discussion is to tell each what we think.

As for the Stark convergence, I see the Starks regaining control of WF before the Long Night. It will probably be Bran or Jon that will be lord. And I see the rest of the siblings making their way to WF soon after, if not at the same time.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

It's either Bran or Arya who will be the last Stark to come back to Winterfell. 

Rickon will be first followed by Jon, then by Sansa then by Bran or Arya. 

 

[chrisdaw]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:42 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

Arya's going to King's Landing too. She'll return on Harys Swift's ship disguised as Raff. I suspect her next chapter will be called The Sweetling. She wants vengeance on Cersei. Her character's main conflict is between her identity as no one or Arya Stark. The lone wolf or a member of the pack. Vengeance or justice. She will have to choose between vengeance against Cersei or justice for Sansa to resolve her arc, as well as her sibling rivalry with Sansa. And by that I mean that when the opportunity to kill Cersei presents itself, she will pass on it in favor of ending Robert Strong instead.

Close. The central conflict of Arya's arc is freedom vs duty.

Her arc culminates in a decision to either be no-one and run away and live a wilful free life, or resume being Arya Stark and doing her duty.

The specific way it will manifest is the duty of Arya Stark, should she choose to accept it, will be the rigid life of the most high noble. Arya Stark must marry who her liege lord betrothed her to, which will be a person she does not love or even like (she will love his children though), live amongst people she mostly doesn't like in a place she hates and be continually bored, as the queen of Westeros. As queen she will have considerable power to prevent the horrors inflicted upon the realm as she's toured first hand and which can be traced back (not wholly but obviously in a large part due) to an undutiful queen, as well as all the horrors that are about to come in the second dance and afterwards due to (in part) the misrule of several queens, Dany, Arianne and Sansa. As queen it will be an opportunity to apply all she's learning of justice, tolerance, life, sacrifice and loss (those shadows in Bran's visions are shadows because they're all going to die, everyone is going to die basically, and all the best of them in service to the realm). And Sansa is going to be the new Cersei, so if Arya doesn't show her face and take up her position she will be leaving the realm in the hands of Cersei 2 and at risk of it all going off the rails, again.

On 2/5/2022 at 1:42 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree. Sansa's going south to King's Landing. She's not going to see Winterfell in book six. Sandor, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, and Arya are characters whose arcs intersect hers, more so than any of the northern cast, and that means she must move to a location where such an intersection can be made. Plotlines are converging now. It only makes sense that King's Landing is that location.

Yes but you're missing out Tyrion and Tyrion is the most important. The central question of Tyrion's arc is can he accept a hard truth, it manifests itself in the question of if he can face up to the fact Sansa doesn't love him, just the power he provides for her. Sansa's question is after Tyrion is of no more political use to Sansa, even becoming a hinderance, will she go full Cersei and murder him or do at least the minimal that honour/morality would require her to do.

Also key will be the Faith. All those references to the Maid are not for nothing, as the Faith become the dominant force in the realm she's going to successfully contrast her humble, honest, pious self to the power hungry lustful sinful vixens Dany/Cersei/Marge/Arianne will be perceived as.

[three-eyed monkey]

15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Oh, absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing. The whole point of discussion is to tell each what we think.

As for the Stark convergence, I see the Starks regaining control of WF before the Long Night. It will probably be Bran or Jon that will be lord. And I see the rest of the siblings making their way to WF soon after, if not at the same time.

I get that you see the Starks gathering at Winterfell, but i guess I'm asking if you see the Others being stopped there like they were in the show?

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Close. The central conflict of Arya's arc is freedom vs duty.

Her arc culminates in a decision to either be no-one and run away and live a wilful free life, or resume being Arya Stark and doing her duty.

I don't know about freedom vs duty, but her inner-conflict is certainly connected to her identity.

If Arya is to be no one, then she must give up her identity as Arya Stark. The Faceless Men have made that a condition of her obtaining their knowledge. This creates a dilemma for Arya, because it is Arya Stark who wants revenge on the people named in her prayer, but if she is to learn how to get that revenge, then she must first give up the identity of the person seeking revenge and subsequently the motive for revenge.

Quote

Ser Gregor, she thought. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. Her morning prayer. Or was it? No, she thought, not mine. I am no one. That is the night wolf's prayer. Someday she will find them, hunt them, smell their fear, taste their blood. Someday.

On the surface, Arya is trying to prove that she is no one to the Faceless Men, which is a difficult task as they know when she is lying. But inside Arya's thirst for vengeance remains, and her connection to Nymeria, which is something beyond her control, will make sure her bond to her real identity cannot be broken. Needle is another device that strengthens the bond. So we should expect Arya to return to her Stark identity, the question is what does that mean?

Identity is a big element in a lot of character's arcs, maybe even all of them. The theme that is emerging is that identity doesn't really come down to your name or title but rather your choices and actions. Jon needs to defend the realm, it doesn't really matter if he's Snow, Stark, or Targaryen. The difference between Jaime being Ser Arthur Dayne or the Smiling Knight will be determined by his choices and actions. It's the same for Dany and whether she becomes a great queen or a mad queen. Dany's choice is somewhat symbolized in the Targaryen coin toss, but the difference is that it's not a matter of chance but one of choice. The characters destinies are in their own hands. All the main characters have been striving for agency, but the question on which all their arcs hang is how they will choose to use it.

Arya will obtain the skills she needs to complete her quest for revenge, and she will remain Arya Stark, the person seeking revenge. She is going to be a wolf, but a lone wolf or a member of the pack? That's the central question of her arc. That's why the line is recurring.

Quote

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives."

Ned gives her the truth, early in her arc, but when things take a tragic turn she stops believing it.
 

Quote

 

Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

 

Quote

A long time ago, she remembered her father saying that when the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies and the pack survives. He had it all backwards. Arya, the lone wolf, still lived, but the wolves of the pack had been taken and slain and skinned.

Quote

Arya's place was Winterfell, only Winterfell was gone. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen, and when she tried to make a new one all of them ran off, Hot Pie and Gendry and Yoren and Lommy Greenhands, even Harwin, who had been her father's man.

Arya began as a member of the pack in Winterfell but her journey has made her into the lone wolf. Ned told her the truth at the beginning of her journey but she stopped believing it. As such, if Arya returns to the pack then she returns to the truth, as given to her by Ned. 

Two important points about Ned that connect to Arya's arc is that he favors justice over vengeance, as demonstrated in his ruling against Gregor for pillaging the Riverlands, and he is against hired knives, as demonstrated in his argument with Robert regarding Daenerys. So if Arya is to honor her father, who meant so much to her, then when the final test of her arc comes she must choose to return to the pack and Ned's truth. She began the story with a strong sense of justice and like so many other characters, she must remember who she is, albeit empowered now thanks to the lessons of her journey.

The resolution of her arc depends on how she answers that central question at the very root of her inner-conflict. In the end, she will have a choice to make. One way will lead to destruction, the other to salvation, and Ned told her specifically how she must choose.

 

 

 

 

[three-eyed monkey]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes but you're missing out Tyrion and Tyrion is the most important.

Yes I forgot to mention Tyrion. But my point was that a whole bunch of arcs need to intersect in King's Landing, and Sansa and Arya are amongst them. There's no time for a reunion in Winterfell, and it would only force a premature resolution to a lot of the character's inner-conflicts anyway.

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I don't know about freedom vs duty, but her inner-conflict is certainly connected to her identity.

It is about duty, that's what she's rebelling against. These societal customs and decorum that seem ridiculous and hypocritical on face value are for her to learn the importance of adhering to. Arya's arc of duty is what makes relevant a great deal of Catelyn's and Ned's backstory as well as Lyanna.

Quote

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Arya didn't think it was funny. "I hate needlework!" she said with passion. "It's not fair!"

"Nothing is fair," Jon said. He messed up her hair again and walked away from her, Ghost moving silently beside him. Nymeria started to follow too, then stopped and came back when she saw that Arya was not coming.

Her room is her identity/position, the place of Arya Stark, and needlework is duty. Jon, who will be her lord, is imploring her to stop hiding, return to being Arya Stark and to do her duty. By learning to take a face Arya will have the ability to live an anonymous life of total freedom and never have to return to being Arya Stark and duty. It becomes entirely her choice.

Catelyn always put her duty above herself (duty is a main theme of her story), dutifully marrying Ned being her prime example. Ned likewise married Catelyn out of duty. They're the example for Arya to follow, because it produced a stable north and home and loving childhood for Arya. Although there was that one alleged blemish by Ned resulting in Jon (see how GRRM hits Arya with it through Edric, as well as salacious lies about Catelyn) and so it seems even Ned couldn't remain dutiful when it was pitted against the passions of love.

Arya will learn of her aunty who did the opposite to her mother, abandoned duty for love, the results were it contributed to a war and produced bastard Jon whose bastardy is a constant issue and required Ned sacrifice some of his honor and Catelyn much hurt. And of course, Ned didn't faulted and remains the perfect example. The cost of one not doing their duty is other people get hurt, when it is the highborn sometimes it is everyone they lead, other times just those closest to them.

Arya will love Gendry. She may have the opportunity and means to whisk he and she away to live anonymously together forever. She will definitely have the opportunity to take his child with her and go live anonymously without any other cares. Weighing against that desire will be the duty Arya Stark owes her mother, father and liege lord.

Justice vs vengeance and the importance of mercy isn't the end point of her arc, it's just a lesson along the way. She'll see the horrors of vengeance when she goes to Stoneheart, reject it and be part of Stoneheart's downfall, mid arc. Another vital lesson learned on the path to becoming queen. Towards the end it'll relate to how she perceives Jon. As the returned ice cold Jon comes south taking the heads of everyone who failed in their duty to Robb and the realm, Arya will wonder if she's watching the justice of a righteous lord doing what's needed to save everyone in the toughest of times or a war of vengeance by another returned undead.

[MissM]

21 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I don't know about freedom vs duty, but her inner-conflict is certainly connected to her identity.

But don't you think her identity is deeply linked to the concept of freedom vs duty i.e by walking away as No One she has chosen to be free of her past. But if she reclaims her name (which all signs point to) she will be choosing duty, a harder path. An interesting course correction by GRRM for what Lyanna failed to do when she went against duty and chose to run away with Rhaegar. Arya will do the opposite. 

Quote

If Arya is to be no one, then she must give up her identity as Arya Stark. The Faceless Men have made that a condition of her obtaining their knowledge. This creates a dilemma for Arya, because it is Arya Stark who wants revenge on the people named in her prayer, but if she is to learn how to get that revenge, then she must first give up the identity of the person seeking revenge and subsequently the motive for revenge.

Which is sounds very confusing and an unlikely outcome in the future books. Needle represents Arya's identity and it remains close to Arya even when she rid herself of all her other identities. She hides Needle under a stone step outside the HoBW promising to one day reclaim it. 

“The Many Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.

"You'll be safe here," she told Needle. "No one will know where you are but me." She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones. As she climbed back to the temple, she counted steps, so she would know where to find the sword again. One day she might have need of it. "One day," she whispered to herself.

She never told the kindly man what she had done, yet he knew. - Arya, AFFC

Quote

On the surface, Arya is trying to prove that she is no one to the Faceless Men, which is a difficult task as they know when she is lying.

The Faceless Men know she did not throw away Needle, that she still has wolf dreams and her deep desire to learn their knowledge and use it in her own way is why she is really there. I don't think they have any intention of making her a regular FM because Arya is not capable of being No One. Like you said, they don't believe her when she says. I think they have an agenda and a plan to use Arya in some way. The fact they fast-tracked her training by blinding her was another curious move by the FM. 

Quote

But inside Arya's thirst for vengeance remains, and her connection to Nymeria, which is something beyond her control, will make sure her bond to her real identity cannot be broken. Needle is another device that strengthens the bond. So we should expect Arya to return to her Stark identity, the question is what does that mean?

Another theme in her story is Revenge and her choice to either embrace it or overcome it. She is still processing that. I think Lady Stoneheart will pose a definitive point in turning Arya one way or the other. If Arya is able to develop beyond her need for revenge, what will be her purpose be then? What will drive her onwards? The battle between her heart and her duty is the very foundation of what she will need to sort out going forward. 

Quote

Arya began as a member of the pack in Winterfell but her journey has made her into the lone wolf.

But is she truly? She literally has a whole pack in her head every night she falls asleep. That connection can't be cut off. Nymeria continues to unite smaller packs under her rule with hundreds at her command. We can't overlook how important that is in connection to Arya who still deeply yearns for a pack of her own. 

 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Speaking of Arya what do you think will her relationships with each of her siblings once she finally goes back home ?

What will be her interactions with Jon, with Sansa, Bran and Rickon (if he lives) who is even wilder and more feral than her ?

[three-eyed monkey]

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It is about duty, that's what she's rebelling against. These societal customs and decorum that seem ridiculous and hypocritical on face value are for her to learn the importance of adhering to.

I agree that Arya is rebelling against the status quo. The status quo in Westeros is an elitist patriarchy, with gender specific roles as represented by needlework for girls, etc. The needlework Arya's interested in is swords, but she's not allowed in the sword yard to practice with Robb and Bran and Rickon against Joffrey and Tommen. Jon's not allowed either, because he's a bastard. The societal customs prevent them because one is a girl and the other is a bastard. These are not values that anyone should learn the importance of adhering to.

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Arya didn't think it was funny. "I hate needlework!" she said with passion. "It's not fair!"

"Nothing is fair," Jon said.

Arya and Jon share a strong sense of justice. (This is true of all the Starks with the exception of Rickon, who was only three when Ned was removed from his life.) The status quo is unjust because it is built on lies, such as the societal customs that excluded Jon and Arya from the sword yard. These are the lies that she must rebel against, and to rebel against the lies successfully then her journey must lead her back to the truth. This is the same for all the characters because that is the only way to slay the lies of the status quo.

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Justice vs vengeance and the importance of mercy isn't the end point of her arc, it's just a lesson along the way. She'll see the horrors of vengeance when she goes to Stoneheart, reject it and be part of Stoneheart's downfall, mid arc.

Arya's arc can be split into three acts, departure, initiation, and return. The hero's journey, essentially. Like all the other main characters she is reaching the end of the second act. This is the end of her initiation, the point where she begins the return.

This point is often called the second plot-point or seizing the sword. For Dany, that's the point where she wakes the dragon, the means by which she can win the throne. For Arya, it will be the point where she gets what she came for from the Faceless Men, the means by which she can exact her revenge.

In the third act, the return, Dany and Arya will use the metaphorical swords they have seized to drive towards their goals, but before the end of the act they will face another test. This is the final plot-point, a point where character's must make a major decision that will impact the plot. Dragon queen or true queen? Lone wolf or pack? I believe that for Arya this will manifest in a choice between killing Cersei, the last name on her list, or saving an innocent Sansa.

I think Arya will save Sansa, choosing her pack over the lone wolf's revenge, but to be honest I think she's too far gone, so she'll go back for Cersei and die.

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Another vital lesson learned on the path to becoming queen.

I don't see Arya being queen. Sansa's the one learning to lead and I believe she'll be the Queen of Spring, who will succeed the King of Winter. As such we can see that Sansa too, in her final plot point, will have to reject the lies of the plotters like Littlefinger and Cersei, and return to the same truth all the Starks, except Rickon, were raised with. The North remembers.

I see you have a link with Queen Sansa under your posts, so I'm confused.

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

By learning to take a face Arya will have the ability to live an anonymous life of total freedom and never have to return to being Arya Stark and duty. It becomes entirely her choice.

Personally, I'd rather see any character confront and overcome their challenge, not run from it.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

But don't you think her identity is deeply linked to the concept of freedom vs duty i.e by walking away as No One she has chosen to be free of her past. But if she reclaims her name (which all signs point to) she will be choosing duty, a harder path. An interesting course correction by GRRM for what Lyanna failed to do when she went against duty and chose to run away with Rhaegar. Arya will do the opposite. 

I see it more as love vs duty, and it's a false dilemma. Maester Aemon says love is the death of duty and Jon instinctively knows that sounds wrong though he doesn't question Aemon.

Quote

 

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.

 

Duty is something we are obliged to perform, be it legally or morally. But when we do something purely from a sense of duty it can often feel hollow. The thing is that duty does not always encompass love, but love always encompasses duty. For example, when we love someone then the duty of care for them comes naturally, it's not simply an obligation imposed by society or whatever. That's why Aemon, a fool who thought himself so wise by his own admission, is wrong in what he says and Jon knows it. Of course, Jon's place in the status quo is what prevents him contradicting Aemon's narrative.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

Which is sounds very confusing and an unlikely outcome in the future books.

I don't think it's that confusing, it's just a simple conundrum. Arya Stark wants revenge but she must learn skills to get it. The Faceless Men can teach her the skills but a condition is that she becomes no one, not just in name but completely removed from the girl she was, the one who wants revenge. If she completes her transformation to no one then technically she would no longer desire revenge, which would be highly unsatisfying. Nymeria and Needle will ensure that doesn't happen, so the question is not whether she will be faceless or a wolf, but rather what type of wolf will she be, a lone wolf or member of the pack.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

The Faceless Men know she did not throw away Needle, that she still has wolf dreams and her deep desire to learn their knowledge and use it in her own way is why she is really there. I don't think they have any intention of making her a regular FM because Arya is not capable of being No One. Like you said, they don't believe her when she says. I think they have an agenda and a plan to use Arya in some way. The fact they fast-tracked her training by blinding her was another curious move by the FM

The Faceless Men may well have an agenda for her, I don't disagree. I also agree that she is there to use their knowledge for her own ends, definitely. But still, regardless of why she is there or what the Faceless Men have planned for her, the dilemma presented is that to learn the skill she must first become no one. I'm not saying she will become no one. I suspect she will learn to fool them and learn what she needs, and then return to her mission of revenge, empowered by her new skill set.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

Another theme in her story is Revenge and her choice to either embrace it or overcome it. She is still processing that. I think Lady Stoneheart will pose a definitive point in turning Arya one way or the other. If Arya is able to develop beyond her need for revenge, what will be her purpose be then? What will drive her onwards? The battle between her heart and her duty is the very foundation of what she will need to sort out going forward. 

As Ned pointed out, there is a difference between vengeance and justice, though the former is in far greater supply throughout the series. Jaime and Hoster Blackwood also explore the topic. Justice and vengeance are juxtaposed so that we can compare and contrast their values. Vengeance is a cycle that consumes. Old wounds never heal, and Prince Doran is a good example of that. Justice, true justice, allows healing to begin, and the realm is bleeding.

By saving an innocent Sansa, instead of killing Cersei, Arya would not only pick the pack over the lone wolf but also justice over vengeance. That way we can see how the different themes in her arc will tie together when she makes that final decision to resolve her arc.

2 hours ago, MissM said:

But is she truly? She literally has a whole pack in her head every night she falls asleep. That connection can't be cut off. Nymeria continues to unite smaller packs under her rule with hundreds at her command. We can't overlook how important that is in connection to Arya who still deeply yearns for a pack of her own.

She is not truly the lone wolf yet, and she never will fully become the lone wolf because she will choose the pack, but at this time she is strongly leaning that way and I suspect she will go further down that path.

Quote

There is no place here for Arya of House Stark, she was thinking. Arya's place was Winterfell, only Winterfell was gone. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen,

Her heart is in conflict, that's the point, and to resolve it she needs to make a choice. There's no place for her at the House of Black and White either, pushing her further down the road of lone wolf. When the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies, so we know she is on the path to destruction. To achieve salvation she must pick the pack.

2 hours ago, MissM said:

I think Lady Stoneheart will pose a definitive point in turning Arya one way or the other.

She'll be important thematically for certain. I'm not so sure they'll meet but maybe.

 

[MissM]

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Speaking of Arya what do you think will her relationships with each of her siblings once she finally goes back home ?

What will be her interactions with Jon, with Sansa, Bran and Rickon (if he lives) who is even wilder and more feral than her ?

By the time she meets most of her siblings again, it will be the Arya that survived the Faceless Men and hopefully saw the uselessness of being purely vengeances driven (through her experience with Lady Stoneheart) I think Arya will be very consumed with piecing together what is left of her pack.

With Bran, I think they will have somewhat of a connection sooner than when they first meet face to face. Arya's connections to the CoTF by way of description and imagery can't be a coincidence. Arya already notices the trees watching her during a wolf dream - is Bran able to enter her warg dreams? Arya wonders what language ravens speak  (the True Tongue of the COTF) and then develops into a skinchanger herself. She has a considerable amount of bird symbolism in her chapters too. When Bran mistakes Arya for a second time: He sees her as a child of the forest darting through a cave full of ravens, carrying a torch/fire in one hand and singing a song that almost broke Bran's heart. Arya skinchanging a raven and being able to understand and communicate with Bran before they meet again is a very possible scenario. Perhaps he will also show her things through her dreams, things from the past or future. 

With Jon, he won't be the same person she remembers... but then again neither is Arya. They have both changed so much and have been touched by death in different ways. I think Arya will understand him the most and will be fiercely protective. With Sansa, GRRM confirmed they have issues to work out. It really depends on the kind of person Sansa will be when they meet again and visa versa. I think/hope Arya will see Sansa for the sister she almost lost and can build a closer bond again. 

 

 

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, MissM said:

With Bran, I think they will have somewhat of a connection sooner than when they first meet face to face. Arya's connections to the CoTF by way of description and imagery can't be a coincidence. Arya already notices the trees watching her during a wolf dream - is Bran able to enter her warg dreams? Arya wonders what language ravens speak  (the True Tongue of the COTF) and then develops into a skinchanger herself. She has a considerable amount of bird symbolism in her chapters too. When Bran mistakes Arya for a second time: He sees her as a child of the forest darting through a cave full of ravens, carrying a torch/fire in one hand and singing a song that almost broke Bran's heart. Arya skinchanging a raven and being able to understand and communicate with Bran before they meet again is a very possible scenario. Perhaps he will also show her things through her dreams, things from the past or future. 

Don't forget that Bran already connected with Jon in a dream in ASoS. Jon was in Ghost, he spoke with Bran in the form of a weirwood. Bran remembered the dream too, so there is already a device in place to facilitate what you're suggesting.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

With Sansa, GRRM confirmed they have issues to work out. It really depends on the kind of person Sansa will be when they meet again and visa versa. I think/hope Arya will see Sansa for the sister she almost lost and can build a closer bond again. 

I agree and I hope the same. I think the sisters will resolve their conflict but I'm expecting a final twist beyond the resolution for Arya.

Quote

 

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.

 

It was half a lie, half a truth. To me this suggests that her love for Sansa is not enough to fully overcome her hate for those who would do them harm. That's why I think she will ultimately be a tragic character, going back for Cersei and dying in the process.

Quote

The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Arya has been hiding a long time at this stage, so we should expect a very stern penance. She'll be killing all through winter and when spring comes they will find her frozen body with needle in hand. This might seem like she will die in the north but as I have said previously, the Long Night is going to push all the action south to King's Landing. That's where she will die, in my opinion.

Edit: Of course, that means a second life for a skinchanger so she would end in Nymeria. So in a way she'll be back with her pack. She'd be Arya for a while but the wolf would take over more and more until she once again forgets who she is. The cycle of knowing and forgetting and then remembering runs through the whole series.

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree that Arya is rebelling against the status quo. The status quo in Westeros is an elitist patriarchy, with gender specific roles as represented by needlework for girls, etc. The needlework Arya's interested in is swords, but she's not allowed in the sword yard to practice with Robb and Bran and Rickon against Joffrey and Tommen. Jon's not allowed either, because he's a bastard. The societal customs prevent them because one is a girl and the other is a bastard. These are not values that anyone should learn the importance of adhering to.

Nah you're entirely missing what the text is doing for what you want it to do. These characters are not for ripping down a feudal system and remaking it in a single generation (you can even look to Dany/Essos for what the text thinks is the plausibility of that), there's none of that in here, that's not this story. As the text says, it's not fair, nothing is.

Arianne will be queen, then Aegon will die and Dany will be queen, then Dany will be removed by popular revolt and Sansa will be queen, then her kingly husband will die and a new king and queen will need be made, and in a pact of ice and fire to rejoin the north and south, princess of the north Arya will be betrothed to the iron throne. Arya must either accept her duty and role in reuniting the realm, for the good of all Westeros, or run away for love.

[Apoplexy]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:11 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

I get that you see the Starks gathering at Winterfell, but i guess I'm asking if you see the Others being stopped there like they were in the show?

I don't see the Others taking over all of Westeros. I see them being stopped somewhere in the north if not exactly at WF. Because if not, the Others can raise the dead and keep adding to their numbers. That would mean very few people are left alive in Westeros after they are eventually defeated.

[three-eyed monkey]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Nah you're entirely missing what the text is doing for what you want it to do.

I disagree. I'm demonstrating how the themes are built, how those themes connect to the characters inner-conflicts, how the resolution of those conflicts impact the plot, and how the resolution of the plot will prove the theme. Plot, character, and theme are intrinsically connected in every story because theme is the point of the story and characters and plot combine to make that point.

All this is done using well known story-telling techniques, which are not defined by me, obviously. These techniques include building themes through juxtaposition, like love vs duty or justice vs vengeance. Character-arcs built on templates like the hero's journey. Use of the three act structure. Resolution of inner-conflict using want vs need. You can see all this in any good novel or story in general. I'm not missing what the text is doing for what I want it to do, I'm seeing what the text is doing, where it's doing it, when it's doing it, and demonstrating how it fits into the structure of a story. We can disagree about my conclusions, but I think the method of analysis is valid. Take any completed story you like and you'll see it broken down that way.

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

These characters are not for ripping down a feudal system and remaking it in a single generation (you can even look to Dany/Essos for what the text thinks is the plausibility of that), there's none of that in here, that's not this story. As the text says, it's not fair, nothing is.

Let me start with Dany in Essos. Indeed she is struggling to reset the old system and bring an end to slavery, etc. Now she will wake the dragon and burn the old system down, as represented by the black-walled heart of Old Volantis. This is her second plot-point as marked by her second fire from the HotU, the point where she seizes the sword and begins to rule by dragon, as Aegon did. In essence she'll replace the slavers with different type of tyranny, a dragon instead of a harpy, already foreshadowed by Drogon's lair atop the great pyramid. But there's still one act to go and Dany has a final plot-point and one more fire to light. A final decision to make. That fire is Lightbringer, which will bring the dawn. 

In normal circumstances, ripping down a feudal system and remaking it in a single generation is not plausible. However, these are not normal circumstances. The Long Night is going to be a catastrophic event for Westeros, so the system is going to be ripped down in winter and the survivors will have to remake it in spring. The series is full of rebirth symbolism, green men, Azor Ahai Reborn, etc. Spring is a time of rebirth in the natural cycle. In political terms a spring is a revolutionary movement of the people.

You mentioned the topic of freedom, so look at the theme emerging there. The feudal system is divided into high born and smallfolk. Smallfolk are kneelers, and if they want to stop being smallfolk they need to stop kneeling and stand up. That way smallfolk can become free folk.

Quote

From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew.

Quote

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade."

There are clear hints that the world will be broken and remade before the end of the story, which simply reflects the season change from winter to spring, or a Long Night to a new dawn. That's not me making the text do what I want it to, that's just what the text says. The Long Night will first clear the slate, so to speak, and this is reflected in Jaime and the White Book, because if you're going to write your own destiny then the first thing you need is a blank page.

11 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

don't see the Others taking over all of Westeros. I see them being stopped somewhere in the north if not exactly at WF. Because if not, the Others can raise the dead and keep adding to their numbers. That would mean very few people are left alive in Westeros after they are eventually defeated.

That would relegate the Others and the Long Night to a subplot, and halt the very mechanism the story needs as a catalyst for major change. I think there will be a vastly reduced population in the end, but essentially mankind is facing extinction so a few survivors is a win. In western flood mythology it was only Noah and his three sons and their wives, though I doubt GRRM will go that far. I do expect a greatly reduced population though, to facilitate the clean slate required for the world to be made anew.

GRRM is going to raise the stakes until the whole realm is at risk. Why wouldn't he increase the drama like that? In an epic of this scale I think it we should expect the heroes to have to save the world.

Quote

He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple, and somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it.

King's Landing  is certainly the location where the game of thrones will be resolved, and the Isle of Faces is a location where the Long Night strand of the story can be resolved. Dany had a vision of her burning an army armored in ice on the Trident, and that would fit with these locations, but I doubt the armies of men can stop the others, even with dragons. The last hero had to enlist the help of the children in the hope their magic could win back what the armies of men had lost, and it will be the same for the next heroes.

The southern half of Westeros will be devastated too, but by war and steel and fire thanks to Euron, so as such the ice and fire will meet around the latitude of the locations mentioned. As for the remnants of humanity, I suspect they will fit into Harrenhal as their final refuge, while the Long Night is resolved by Jon, Dany, and Bran across the lake.

But even if the Others only get as far as the Trident, Winterfell will still be long lost far behind enemy lines, and that's why I don't see the point of or time for a Stark reunion there.

[Apoplexy]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That would relegate the Others and the Long Night to a subplot, and halt the very mechanism the story needs as a catalyst for major change. I think there will be a vastly reduced population in the end, but essentially mankind is facing extinction so a few survivors is a win. In western flood mythology it was only Noah and his three sons and their wives, though I doubt GRRM will go that far. I do expect a greatly reduced population though, to facilitate the clean slate required for the world to be made anew.

GRRM is going to raise the stakes until the whole realm is at risk. Why wouldn't he increase the drama like that? In an epic of this scale I think it we should expect the heroes to have to save the world.

I see the Others as a subplot. It's been five books and we know little to nothing about the Others. Unless GRRM plans to write more than two books, it will have to be a subplot. And there is always the risk of the series becoming too walking deadish. 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

And there is always the risk of the series becoming too walking deadish. 

It's funny that you should mention that.

Because I always thought that that the series becoming very similar to The Walking Dead would be a natural (if not final) consequence

Even if the Others don't get past the Trident (fairly likely) or Winterfell (extremely unlikely), the dead will. I think the dead will overrun the entire continent.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I see the Others as a subplot.

Then the opening prologue of the series, the Stark words, the title of the next book and the last book, a huge amount of material about prophecy, the reason Bran must learn to fly, the Wall and the Night's Watch, all relate to a subplot.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

It's been five books and we know little to nothing about the Others.

I think we know more about them than most readers realize. If you want some food for thought, check out the link below.

https://three-eyed-monkey.com/07-the-true-enemy/

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Unless GRRM plans to write more than two books, it will have to be a subplot. And there is always the risk of the series becoming too walking deadish. 

Since the events of Jon XIII, ADwD, the Others can now pass the Wall. I say that because we are told they cannot pass the Wall as long as the men of the Watch hold true. Hold true means stick to their oaths, which is defend the realm of men and take no part in the game of thrones. I don't think the men of the Watch have held true, so I expect the Others to pass the Wall soon. I think a steady advance will easily bring them to the Trident in a book and a half.

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Because I always thought that that the series becoming very similar to The Walking Dead would be a natural (if not final) consequence

I agree, in that dead men walking the realm seems like the natural consequence of the Long Night, which is the existential threat that needs to be averted.

[chrisdaw]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:55 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

We can disagree about my conclusions, but I think the method of analysis is valid.

Nah there's just nothing in the text for it.