What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

That does not eliminate the idea of a successor or a leader of the others.

That does not eliminate the idea of a leader of the Others. It  eliminates that idea of a successor for NK since he's never been the leader of the Others. 

[three-eyed monkey]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That's nothing like text supporting an emergence of a new political system, it's just repurposing of a handful of passages that have open ended rebirth symbolism. I don't really know where to begin pointing out that a story concerning the evolution of the government system would look completely different. There's not a character or even a theme within a character's arc concerned with a method of governance other than a feudal monarchy. Hell a common criticism of ASOIAF is that governance (and technology) is basically stagnant over its whole history, which is a good indication of the author's appetite for the subject.

That's completely missing the point of all the themes in all the character's arcs. If we look at any of the themes built through juxtaposition, such as justice vs vengeance or unity vs division, we see that there is a truth and a lie represented in each pairing. Justice and unity are the truth, vengeance and division are the lie. Some topics such as honor, which is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, have lost their true meaning and become a lie. Some topics like chivalry, which is a group of qualities such as defending the weak, are now seen as naive. Currently in Westeros the lie holds sway through accepted ideas of noble bloodlines, high lords and smallfolk, gender bias, etc. Vengeance is in far greater supply than justice. Lies hold more political currency than truth. As a result the realm is divided and not united.

So each character has to choose between the lie and the truth. Sansa is learning to lie. Arya is learning the skills she needs to get vengeance. This is where their journeys have brought them, but to complete a positive arc they must return to the truth. Arya must choose justice and unity as represented by the pack, rather than vengeance and division, as represented by the lone wolf. It's the same for every character, and if they all choose the truth over the lie then the whole system will change. The lies will be slain, so to speak. That is the transformative power of the truth.

The rebirth symbolism is not open-ended, as you suggest. Author's use symbolism to reflect themes, so clearly there is a theme of rebirth involved. Winter to Spring suggests the same, and as I have pointed out, there is a double-meaning in the word spring as it has a political connotation too.

Mance and the Free Folk do espouse a different system, one based on merit rather than the standard feudal model based on supposedly superior bloodlines, divine right, doctrines of exceptionalism, and other such lies.

Quote

"Free folk don't follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had told him. "They won't dance for coins, they don't care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandsire was. They follow strength. They follow the man."

That's why the free folk are free folk, and contrasted against the kneelers who are smallfolk. The point is that everyone needs to stand up for the truth and stop kneeling to the lies.  A true king is someone who adheres to the truth, justice over vengeance, unity over division, duty to the realm ahead of his rights, etc. That is someone people would choose to follow, and people ruled by a true king are in fact free folk not smallfolk. As they say, the truth will set you free.

So every theme in the story is building into the main theme, and they all suggest change is coming, that change is in the hands of the individual characters, but true change requires sacrifice.

20 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't see the long night being one night, but I don't see it spanning months/years either. A zombie apocalypse would need more than two books to resolve. (And IMO a terrible plot)

I agree it will be longer that one night and I don't see it spanning years either. The threat is that the Long Night lasts for years, generations, maybe even forever, but I'm not suggesting it will because the heroes will learn how to bring the new dawn. So there won't be a zombie apocalypse as you put it, the point of the story is to avert that from happening. But you can't say that is not the threat, one we were introduced to in the opening prologue of the series. The Others raise the dead, that's canon, so we have to accept that wights are a thing in the story. Jon is not trying to defend the realm from the wildlings, he's trying to defend it from the Others and their armies of dead. You see the wildlings is a subplot, and subplots do have relevance to the main plot, but the Others are a significant strand of the main plot, which is better reflected in the name of the series rather than the name of the first book.

The Long Night will last from whenever the Others pass the Wall and bring it to the realm, moving south over the realm until the climax of the story, which will happen in the King's Landing and God's Eye area in about a book and two-thirds, leaving the last third for conclusion and aftermath, which follow the climax of a story.

 

[Apoplexy]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

That does not eliminate the idea of a leader of the Others. It  eliminates that idea of a successor for NK since he's never been the leader of the Others. 

We do not have enough information about the NK, the queen and the others to eliminate the idea of a successor for the NK. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

We do not have enough information about the NK, the queen and the others to eliminate the idea of a successor for the NK. 

 

We have enough information to know that the show guy you keep thinking on about has nothing to do with the book guy.

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The Long Night will last from whenever the Others pass the Wall and bring it to the realm, moving south over the realm until the climax of the story, which will happen in the King's Landing and God's Eye area in about a book and two-thirds, leaving the last third for conclusion and aftermath, which follow the climax of a story.

This is possible for sure. I personally don't see the others and the dead reaching as far south as KL. I think they will be defeated much sooner.

[Apoplexy]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We have enough information to know that the show guy you keep thinking on about has nothing to do with the book guy.

I never said the show NK was the same as the book NK.

[Corvo the Crow]

Just now, Apoplexy said:

I never said the show NK was the same as the book NK.

Yet the stuff you keep talking on about are all show NK and not at all book NK. For the record, they aren't even named the same, one is Night's King and the other Night King.

[Apoplexy]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Yet the stuff you keep talking on about are all show NK and not at all book NK. For the record, they aren't even named the same, one is Night's King and the other Night King.

The certainly see a character similar to the show NK appearing in the books. It doesn't have to be the exact same character, it could be a successor, it could be a successor to the corpse queen. If you don't see any similar character appearing in the books, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Regarding who rules what, I took another look at this quote from Littlefinger in AFFC:

Quote

"You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

"Three queens?" She did not understand.

Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, "I have brought my sweet girl back a gift."

I always took the three queens to be a hint that Littlefinger knew about Aegon and was planning on striking a marriage between him and Sansa (something which I still think could happen, especially if Shadrich manages to get her back to King's Landing), but looking at this, his plan for "the three queens" seems to rely on the speed at which Cersei destroys herself, not on when Aegon reaches Westeros (unless Littlefinger is in cahoots with Varys, but I don't find that likely).

His mention of the three queens is immediately followed by news of the betrothal with Harry, and then Littlefinger's plan for recapturing Winterfell:

Quote

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon … and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back … why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa … Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

Taken all together, my guess is that the three queens are Cersei, Margaery, and Sansa, and that Littlefinger is planning on crowning her and Harry. Their marriage would join half the kingdom together: the North, Vale, and Riverlands. There are some issues though:

1. The Stark boys -- unbeknownst to LF, Bran and Rickon are still alive, and some weird shit's about to go down with Jon

2. The Riverlands -- Edmure is still alive, and is expecting a child, both of whom just fell under Jaime's protection. LF's status as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands also rests entirely on the Lannister's staying in power, which would be undone by this plan.

3. The other kingdoms -- how does he plan to conquer the remainder of Westeros? 

4. The Targaryens -- Aegon and Dany are going to cause so many problems

5. Shadrich -- there's no point in GRRM planting him in the Vale and not using him

6. Sansa herself -- she cares for Sweetrobin, she doesn't want to be queen, and it's very unlikely that she would challenge her brothers for Winterfell. Like I mentioned before, I could see this being where the show got the LF vs. Arya plot, if LF tries to take out the other Stark kids in the books, which finally turns Sansa against him.

But it's all just speculation. I just want to find out what happens already  

[James West]

The Starks will have their family conflict and it will not be unlike the ones facing the Greyjoys and the Martells.  I believe this bloody conflict will be between Sansa+Littefinger and the team of Jon the Wight and Arya. 

[chrisdaw]

11 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That's completely missing the point

You said absolutely nothing relating to the topic on which I engaged you until the last line and yeah fair enough the marginalised free folk have a different form of non-government. When I said characters I should have put POV characters. I don't know if you're having a lend or what.

17 hours ago, GMantis said:

...

The text makes clear there are long term health implications of sweetsleep, if one needs that explained to them they're not worth explaining it to. The text says plainly and empathetically that Sansa loves it in the Vale, the qualifiers are something you're making up. Whether she is happier in the Vale than she ever was in the north is not something I've argued and no point the text cares to make, it's just another thing you've made up. Sansa was happy in the north, and she is happy in the Vale, she loves it there in fact. The point is Sansa can be and is very happy somewhere other than the north, she can move on from the north and find her happiness elsewhere, I know this because she has done so, it is the text.

[three-eyed monkey]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You said absolutely nothing relating to the topic on which I engaged you until the last line and yeah fair enough the marginalised free folk have a different form of non-government. When I said characters I should have put POV characters. I don't know if you're having a lend or what.

No, I'm not having a lend.

You said, There's not a character or even a theme within a character's arc concerned with a method of governance other than a feudal monarchy. I disagree. I'm not saying it won't be a monarchy, because I believe Sansa will be the Queen of Spring. However, you said method of governance, which is the manner in which the realm is run, and that's what I'm addressing.

The mechanism for change exists within the arcs of every character. Sansa could be a plotter like Cersei and Littlefinger or Sansa could be a true queen, which was once an aspiration of hers.

Quote

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

The choice ultimately falls to Sansa. Her central conflict could be summed-up as a conflict between truth and lies. In her first plot-point she told Cersei the truth about Ned's plan to send his daughters home, and it cost her father his head. Right now she is learning to lie, as she advances from pawn to player. To resolve her arc she must choose what type of player she will be. A queen who rules through love or fear. That character choice, her final plot-point, will determine the manner in which the realm is run, even though it will still be a monarchy.

As I said, every character choice will define the realm they live in. A vengeful and divided realm or a just and united realm? A bleeding realm or a healing realm? This comes down the choices and actions of the characters. That's how the human heart in conflict drives the plot. 

The free folk too are still a monarchy, but the difference is they choose to follow a king based on merit and not on his house or bloodline, which form the basis of a typical feudal system. Whether a character has merit is determined by the choices and actions of the character. So I think that will be another significant change to the method of governance, a change that will be made easier by the destruction of many great houses by way of winter or war before the end.

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

she told Cersei the truth about Ned's plan to send his daughters home, and it cost her father his head.

It didn't. Wish there was some kind of bot that could auto-respond this...

ETA

Although the general point about the truth/lies dilemma sounds solid.

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It didn't. Wish there was some kind of bot that could auto-respond this...

I accept that's an exaggeration, Ned was still in a difficult spot. She defied her father and went behind his back to tell Cersei and that did not help Ned. I suppose what I mean is that she told the truth and there was negative consequences. 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Although the general point about the truth/lies dilemma sounds solid.

Indeed, the conflict between truth and lies runs all through her arc. She was forced to lie in the letter declaring her father a traitor in order to survive, which meant a positive consequence for lying. Sandor tells her they're all liars in KL, every one better than her. She's adopted a false identity. She's learning to lie more easily. Her inner-conflict is between lies and truth, which is the same central conflict the realm faces.

[BlackLightning]

You know, the more I think about it the more it makes sense for Sansa to return to King's Landing in The Winds of Winter and mix it up with Team Aegon and every other southern lord and knight at court before heading north for Winterfell for the series finale.

The only problem we have with that is a matter of time.

It seems like King's Landing might be the new Meereen. Getting these plots and players and pawns in the same place at the same time is some task. I want to say that he might have learned his lesson from the Meereenese Knot but this delay has got me thinking he's stuck on the timing of the King's Landing story. Probably Winterfell too.

On 2/13/2022 at 6:28 PM, James West said:

The Starks will have their family conflict and it will not be unlike the ones facing the Greyjoys and the Martells.  I believe this bloody conflict will be between Sansa+Littefinger and the team of Jon the Wight and Arya. 

Maybe.

I can see a conflict between the Starks happening but I believe that it will be very minor and short compared to the inter-familial conflict with the Greyjoys, the Martells and the Lannisters.

That being said, I don't see any real conflict between the Starks happening until Arya or Bran (most likely Arya) shows up.

[three-eyed monkey]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

You know, the more I think about it the more it makes sense for Sansa to return to King's Landing in The Winds of Winter and mix it up with Team Aegon and every other southern lord and knight at court before heading north for Winterfell for the series finale.

I agree. That's where the meat of her story is.

Something I observed about Sansa's character-arc is that it is constructed with a subtle difference, compared to Jon, Arya, and Bran. All the Starks are on a hero's journey style arc, including Sansa. The journey involves leaving their familiar surroundings, learning new skills, and then returning empowered. The first step of the journey is known as the ordinary world. For the Starks, this is Winterfell, where they grew up. Then there is a call to arms or an inciting incident, which sets the character upon their journey. Jon goes to Castle Black, for example. This is usually followed by a refusal of the call, like when Jon considers deserting the Watch to return to Winterfell.

Sansa never refuses the call to go to King's Landing. Instead, her refusal comes when Ned decides he is sending her and her sister home to Winterfell. That's when she goes to Cersei, because she does not want to leave King's Landing. The subtle point being made is that King's Landing is Sansa's ordinary world. That's where she belongs. So when she departs her ordinary world and goes on her journey, with Littlefinger, it is actually King's Landing she needs to return to complete her arc. I suspect that learning her place is in Winterfell will be part of resolving her arc, so I don't see her returning there until after it is resolved.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The only problem we have with that is a matter of time.

It seems like King's Landing might be the new Meereen. Getting these plots and players and pawns in the same place at the same time is some task. I want to say that he might have learned his lesson from the Meereenese Knot but this delay has got me thinking he's stuck on the timing of the King's Landing story. Probably Winterfell too.

Some task indeed, but collapsing all the action on KL and resolving it there is more direct, so there's that.

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Some task indeed, but collapsing all the action on KL and resolving it there is more direct, so there's that.

But that needs to happen at least twice.

Once in The Winds of Winter for Aegon's capture of the city and Cersei's downfall. And then at least once in A Dream of Spring for whatever the hell GRRM has planned.

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

For the Starks, this is Winterfell, where they grew up. Then there is a call to arms or an inciting incident, which sets the character upon their journey. Jon goes to Castle Black, for example. This is usually followed by a refusal of the call, like when Jon considers deserting the Watch to return to Winterfell.

Sansa never refuses the call to go to King's Landing. Instead, her refusal comes when Ned decides he is sending her and her sister home to Winterfell. That's when she goes to Cersei, because she does not want to leave King's Landing. The subtle point being made is that King's Landing is Sansa's ordinary world. That's where she belongs. So when she departs her ordinary world and goes on her journey, with Littlefinger, it is actually King's Landing she needs to return to complete her arc. I suspect that learning her place is in Winterfell will be part of resolving her arc, so I don't see her returning there until after it is resolved.

I completely disagree

You are 100% right to say that Sansa's arc is constructed differently from Bran and Arya. right to say that Sansa never refuses the call to go to King's Landing. But her refusal the call to go comes much earlier than that; it happens when she becomes a people-pleaser and refuses to tell the truth about the Mycah incident.

So her "refusal of the call" (which happens in her first chapter) revolves around standing by her family and telling the truth. her last chapter sees the consequences of her refusal of the call and how she is resolved to go back home and reunite with her family. Those six chapters are the beginning of her journey. As a matter of fact, you can say that the first five chapters of Sansa's entire arc are an extended "refusal of the call."

So I think you're wrong to expect that Sansa's arc has to be like Arya's and Bran's because she is a Stark. I don't really even think that Jon's arc is the same as Arya's and Bran's for that matter. Jon starts off being very unhappy at home and was trying to leave...only to regret his decision.

Sansa's arc is constructed more like that of Daenerys. Both their arcs begin with refusing the "call" that their father and brother make. Not only that but both girls express a desire to go home -- or find a home in Daenerys' case -- and live happily ever after with a husband and children but their arcs don't begin with them being at home. It begins with them having an star-struck, puppy-love adventure away from home (Sansa) or living in a comfortable exile as a glorified sex slave...again away from home. (Daenerys)

Obviously Daenerys is going to get back to Westeros (namely Dragonstone and King's Landing) ...so why wouldn't Sansa make her way back to Winterfell?

Sansa's brief return to King's Landing (if she even bothers to go) will be just a detour much like Daenerys' many detours in Meereen and Vaes Dothrak.

If someone's ordinary world is the place where they refuse the call, then Jon's ordinary world would be the Wall, Daenerys' ordinary world would be Pentos and Sansa's would be in Darry...or wherever someone is holding court--could be King's Landing or Winterfell or Harrenhal or the Eyrie or Timbuktu.

Bran (Ned and Cat too but I'm not sure if we're counting them) are the only ones whose refusal of the call happens at Winterfell.

But then again, you bring up a good point about how the final resolution of Sansa's (and by extension, Daenerys's arcs) is to figure out that her place is at Winterfell and to go back...only to find that there are conflicts to resolve and messes to clean up.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

For my part I don't see Sansa going back to King's Landing before she finally returns to her home, and not without having become a player and being in a position of power this time.

I don't believe in these theories of Shadrich kindnapping her and taking her back to King's Landing, and if he manages to do I don't think he'll go far, he would be alone in a place stricly under the Vale lords' control and with Sansa complicating things, not counting the Vale clansmen who could well kill him or them on sight if it isn't Littlefinger or Yohn Royce's men who catch up with them first. 

The end of Sansa's arc in the Vale will most likely of her finding her true name and identity back and starting playing the game herself instead of being just Littlefinger's pawn before going back north.

[Nathan Stark]

5 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

For my part I don't see Sansa going back to King's Landing before she finally returns to her home, and not without having become a player and being in a position of power this time.

I don't believe in these theories of Shadrich kindnapping her and taking her back to King's Landing, and if he manages to do I don't think he'll go far, he would be alone in a place stricly under the Vale lords' control an md with Sansa complicating things, not counting the Vale clansmen who could well kill him or them on sight if it isn't Littlefinger or Yohn Royce's men who catch up with them first. 

The end of Sansa's arc in the Vale will most likely of her finding her true name and identity back and starting playing the game herself instead of being just Littlefinger's pawn before going back north.

Agreed. Sansa was in Kings Landing for nearly three books. And she learned the things she needed to learn there. It's time for her story to progress, not backtrack to where she already was.

[three-eyed monkey]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

You are 100% right to say that Sansa's arc is constructed differently from Bran and Arya. right to say that Sansa never refuses the call to go to King's Landing. But her refusal the call to go comes much earlier than that; it happens when she becomes a people-pleaser and refuses to tell the truth about the Mycah incident.

So her "refusal of the call" (which happens in her first chapter) revolves around standing by her family and telling the truth. her last chapter sees the consequences of her refusal of the call and how she is resolved to go back home and reunite with her family. Those six chapters are the beginning of her journey. As a matter of fact, you can say that the first five chapters of Sansa's entire arc are an extended "refusal of the call."

So I think you're wrong to expect that Sansa's arc has to be like Arya's and Bran's because she is a Stark. I don't really even think that Jon's arc is the same as Arya's and Bran's for that matter. Jon starts off being very unhappy at home and was trying to leave...only to regret his decision.

Sansa's arc is constructed more like that of Daenerys. Both their arcs begin with refusing the "call" that their father and brother make. Not only that but both girls express a desire to go home -- or find a home in Daenerys' case -- and live happily ever after with a husband and children but their arcs don't begin with them being at home. It begins with them having an star-struck, puppy-love adventure away from home (Sansa) or living in a comfortable exile as a glorified sex slave...again away from home. (Daenerys)

Obviously Daenerys is going to get back to Westeros (namely Dragonstone and King's Landing) ...so why wouldn't Sansa make her way back to Winterfell?

I agree that the refusals are extended matters for Dany and Sansa. Dany's initial refusal is around not wanting to be married off to a barbarian, but as her relationship develops with Drogo and she becomes pregnant her refusal develops into a question of a secure life as Drogo's queen or her quest for the iron throne, and she resolves to continue her quest because she is a dragon. Overcoming the refusal is simply a way of committing the hero to the quest, by considering an alternative path but then choosing the quest. Dany's quest for the iron throne will culminate in King's Landing, although I think her arc will be resolved after that on the Isle of Faces.

Sansa is given an alternative path by Ned, but she resolves not to take it, committing to her goal, which at that time was to be queen by way of marriage to Joffrey. She doesn't consider an alternative path, it's being forced upon her but she rejects it and acts to avoid it. So that's why I see her needing to resolve her arc in King's Landing arena, not Winterfell, because that's the quest she committed to. That's why I feel you are right that mixing with team Aegon will move her arc along more than anything in Winterfell could.

However, I think she will resolve her arc in Harrenhal due to it's proximity to the Isle of Faces and the possibility that King's Landing might burn by wildfire before the end to push the action out to the God's Eye, as well as the location's relevance to significant past events in the year of false spring, which seem to me might be mirrored in the true spring.

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If someone's ordinary world is the place where they refuse the call, then Jon's ordinary world would be the Wall, Daenerys' ordinary world would be Pentos and Sansa's would be in Darry...or wherever someone is holding court--could be King's Landing or Winterfell or Harrenhal or the Eyrie or Timbuktu.

I didn't say that. In fact I would say that a character should have begun their journey and be contemplating turning back as such. So while refusals may begin in the character's ordinary world, the decision to overcome the refusal will come on the journey. Sansa's ordinary world is Winterfell, I'm just suggesting that the structure of her refusal hints at her belonging more in King's Landing.

Compare to Jon, for example. Jon is not being forced from the Wall and away from his quest, he's contemplating turning back from his quest but he resolves to stay with it.

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Bran (Ned and Cat too but I'm not sure if we're counting them) are the only ones whose refusal of the call happens at Winterfell.

After leaving Winterfell Bran considers seeking refuge with the Umbers or in White Harbor but decides he'll just be a crippled lordling there so he commits to going in search of the crow and learning to fly. Bran's refusals begin in Winterfell but he's already on his journey when he resolves which path to take. Going to the Last Hearth or White Harbour means remaining as Bran the lordling of Winterfell, which is the alternative to the quest.

 

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But then again, you bring up a good point about how the final resolution of Sansa's (and by extension, Daenerys's arcs) is to figure out that her place is at Winterfell and to go back...only to find that there are conflicts to resolve and messes to clean up.

Well personally I think Sansa will return to Winterfell, but in the aftermath of the story when the ice is receding. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell and to be honest I think she'll be the only one left, in human form anyway.