What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?

[BalerionTheCat]

Wolves are a pack. They do no fight each other. Not to endanger the pack.

Besides, Bran has duties, becoming a greenseer, becoming wood, dealing with the Others, nearly immortal, having the powers of gods. He never had and never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. Why leave his powers for an ephemeral live in a castle?

Jon is currently dead. And when he'll come back, I guess he will be a bit different. Like Bran he is committed to the fight (or peace?) with the Others. Anyway, he will not want Winterfell while Rickon is alive. Less so when his true parents will be known.

I don't see Aria plotting, murdering, to become Lady of Winterfell. She doesn't want to be a fucking Lady.

Remains Sansa. I believe she is going to be the Lady of the Vale. Heir to her aunt. Protector of little Robert while he lives. She will naturally become the heir of the Vale. She can't have or want both the Vale and Winterfell.

Rickon is the logical, uncontested heir to Winterfell. I don't see any other Stark going against their little brother.

[Apoplexy]

The problem with Sansa ruling the Vale is that she is not an Arryn. Unless she marries the heir to the Vale (which I dont see happening) she won't stay at the Vale. And Rickon has to stay alive till the end to be lord of WF. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

If TWOW can be stretched out for 2.5 years (and it honestly should be, when you factor in all the travel) then Sansa can be Bran or Rickon’s regent if Jon chooses to pursue a different course. I think it will be Bran, since he’ll need to rule if he’s to be king in the end. Maybe LF will try to plot to get rid of him, the way he plotted to get rid of Arya on the show, and that will be what finally does him in.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If TWOW can be stretched out for 2.5 years (and it honestly should be, when you factor in all the travel) then Sansa can be Bran or Rickon’s regent if Jon chooses to pursue a different course. I think it will be Bran, since he’ll need to rule if he’s to be king in the end. Maybe LF will try to plot to get rid of him, the way he plotted to get rid of Arya on the show, and that will be what finally does him in.

 

So Sansa will be raisin bran? Never heard of this theory before. Much food for thought you've got there.

[BalerionTheCat]

50 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The problem with Sansa ruling the Vale is that she is not an Arryn. Unless she marries the heir to the Vale (which I dont see happening) she won't stay at the Vale. And Rickon has to stay alive till the end to be lord of WF. 

If Robert and Harry die without legit heirs themselves (quite possible), the succession seems open. Who is  next? Lisa's blood seems as good as another. Or was she to be dumped as soon as Robert is dead? Not my impression. Anyway, Stark line has some value too. Olena much wanted her. Maybe Sansa will need to marry a Royce or who ever has influence, maybe not even.

ETA:

Or is it GRRM meaning? You become "owner" of some place by your line, by your blood. Not by your deeds, by what you did to help people?

[Apoplexy]

53 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If Robert and Harry die without legit heirs themselves (quite possible), the succession seems open. Who is  next? Lisa's blood seems as good as another. Or was she to be dumped as soon as Robert is dead? Not my impression. Anyway, Stark line has some value too. Olena much wanted her. Maybe Sansa will need to marry a Royce or who ever has influence, maybe not even.

ETA:

Or is it GRRM meaning? You become "owner" of some place by your line, by your blood. Not by your deeds, by what you did to help people?

If Robert and Harry die without heirs, Sansa is not going to be next in line. And even if Sansa does something extremely noble and helpful of the residents of the Vale, the lords there are not going to accept her as ruler/lady. Westeros isn't nearly there yet.

[BalerionTheCat]

Just now, Apoplexy said:

Westeros isn't nearly there yet.

I may be completely delusional here. But I believe it's the goal of GRRM (and the Others punishing force) to have Westeros going there (or else die). There and many other things utopic, even for us. We're reading fantasy, remember.

[Apoplexy]

2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I may be completely delusional here. But I believe it's the goal of GRRM (and the Others punishing force) to have Westeros going there (or else die). There and many other things utopic, even for us. We're reading fantasy, remember.

Even being a fantasy, westeros seems to have it's rules of engagement and operations. I personally don't see it going there. 

[GMantis]

52 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If Robert and Harry die without legit heirs themselves (quite possible), the succession seems open. Who is  next? Lisa's blood seems as good as another. Or was she to be dumped as soon as Robert is dead? Not my impression. Anyway, Stark line has some value too. Olena much wanted her. Maybe Sansa will need to marry a Royce or who ever has influence, maybe not even.

ETA:

Or is it GRRM meaning? You become "owner" of some place by your line, by your blood. Not by your deeds, by what you did to help people?

There are plenty of cadet branches of the Arryn family which could inherit if the main line dies out. Lysa and her family have no claim at all - she was simply Jon Arryn's wife.

Sansa's only hope of taking over the Vale is if she has a child with Harry, and then both Robert and Harry die. In this case she could rule in her child's name until he or she reaches sixteen, as Lysa did. Of course the real ruler would still be Littlefinger.

[chrisdaw]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What do you think about the Boltons? True northmen or not? They do have ice in their eyes. Lady Dustin looks like a player too.

Many of the rest might prefer (dis)honourable feuding, but here's the thing: Robb did do it the traditional northern way, swung the sword and all - and he made them all so much weaker. Even his most typically 'northern' followers might feel bad about that (it is the middle of a war after all), and Robb's catastrophic ending might put them in favour of a different kind of leader.

They're no Cersei, Varys or LF. The Boltons betrayed their liege lord in a somewhat southron move and are about to get fucked up for it basically immediately because that's not how they operate in the north, southern tactics doesn't lead to prosperity in the north, the north doesn't tolerate it, the north remembers. That's the depth of it, whereas the south is a perpetual game.

[Corvo the Crow]

Quote

 

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

Jon knew better than to press the point. "Sire, some claim that you mean to grant lands and castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar of Thenn."

ADWD Jon I

Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North."

ADWD Jon IV

 

[GMantis]

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

They're no Cersei, Varys or LF. The Boltons betrayed their liege lord in a somewhat southron move and are about to get fucked up for it basically immediately because that's not how they operate in the north, southern tactics doesn't lead to prosperity in the north, the north doesn't tolerate it, the north remembers. That's the depth of it, whereas the south is a perpetual game.

This seems to be a blatant example of the (to paraphrase) "No true Northerner" fallacy. Apparently Roose Bolton who considers the edicts of the Old Gods more important than the laws of the realm or Barbrey Dustin who despises Southron institutions like the Maesters are more Southron than Eddard Stark with most of his youth spent in the Vale, his Tully wife, half-Andal children and daughters (at least) raised to worship both the Old and New gods. Treachery was not invented in the south and brought by the Andals to infect the virtuous First Men.

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

They're no Cersei, Varys or LF.

Nor is Sansa. But she could be a Barbrey or a Wyman (hopefully she won't go as far as Wyman). The point is that there is variation in what looks like a northern leader, and given the harsh reputation of the Kings of Winter, it doesn't even look like Ned and Robb are that typical.

(There may yet be some payoff for Ned and Robb - achieving martyrdom status may fire up loyalty to their values as embodied in the Stark family. Same as the Manderleys' loyalty to the Stark family is based on early generosity - but also, that doesn't mean they will ever be innocent lambs in the game of thrones.)

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

It's also worth noting that the North is not one single people with the same culture and values, even without taking in account the Manderlys and their Andals-descended followers, but at least dozen of diverse groups and ethnicities with shared values but also lots of differences and tensions and rivalries between them as seen in ACOK. 

The main reason for the northern loyalty to House Stark is that it's the stone on which the North was truly built and united, and that that kept all of these noble houses and people united together in a single kingdom managing to rule them as fairly as possible without favoring one or a few too favorably over the others. 

This is also why the North was so easely decapitated and remained headless for so long following Theon's murder of "Bran and Rickon" and the Boltons' sack of Winterfell, and why the Boltons married a "Stark" to legitimate their power. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The idea of northmen not having their own political games and schemes is also completely ridiculous and worthless anyway, Catelyn had already warned Robb to not take his bannermen's loyalty for granted during A Game Of Thrones, we saw samples of their political games in A Clash of Kings with the various northern lords having feuds and disputes with each other and trying to marry Lady Hornwood for her lands, not counting the Boltons' betrayal and schemes, and the northern conspiracies seen in A Dance with Dragons with Wyman Manderly, Robett Glover and Barbrey Dustin. 

If the Ironborn have their own games, despite them being an even more brutal and gruff society and different from most southerners than northmen, then there is absolutely no reason for the northmen to not have theirs. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Nor is Sansa. But she could be a Barbrey or a Wyman (hopefully she won't go as far as Wyman). The point is that there is variation in what looks like a northern leader, and given the harsh reputation of the Kings of Winter, it doesn't even look like Ned and Robb are that typical.

Wyman is a true Northern leader. Guest right is sacred, especially among Northerners who are First Men, Wyman comes from FM stock too and despite still keeping to the false gods -at least in appearence since we know that Manderlys sacrificed prisoners to weirwoods in WH as well- a thousand years after their migration, he's a Northerner in all but that. Before killing those bridge trolls, he gave them gifts thereby declaring for all the world that their guest right has ended then and there. 

Quote

"Soon I must return to the feast to toast my friends of Frey," Manderly continued. "They watch me, ser. Day and night their eyes are on me, noses sniffing for some whiff of treachery. You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. That one has bought and paid for several of my servants and two of my knights. One of his wife's handmaids has found her way into the bed of my own fool. If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester. Theomore is all head and no heart. You heard him in my hall. Maesters are supposed to put aside old loyalties when they don their chains, but I cannot forget that Theomore was born a Lannister of Lannisport and claims some distant kinship to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me." The fat man's fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. "My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter … but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

Something about the way Lord Wyman said that chilled Davos to the bone. "If it is justice that you want, my lord, look to King Stannis. No man is more just."

....

"And now, my lord?" asked Davos.

He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend. I am too fat to sit a horse, as any man with eyes can plainly see. As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done. My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den. Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?"

"Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."

"Perhaps you understand, then." 

Not just that, but when winter came, because he is an old man, in true Northern fashion he "went hunting" to spare his family.

 

Quote

"Forty wayns full of foodstuffs. Casks of wine and hippocras, barrels of fresh-caught lampreys, a herd of goats, a hundred pigs, crates of crabs and oysters, a monstrous codfish … Lord Wyman likes to eat. You may have noticed."

"What I noticed was that he brought no hostages."

"I noticed that as well."  ADWD Reek III

Four White Harbor knights had formed a ring around Lord Wyman, as Maester Medrick labored over him to staunch his bleeding. "First you must needs come through us, ser," said the eldest of them, a hard-faced greybeard whose bloodstained surcoat showed three silvery mermaids upon a violet field.

ADWD Theon I

He brought with him no hostages and men he took with him are old men, just like Whoresbane took the old men with him to Winterfell. They went to die.

[Willam Stark]

17 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If Robert and Harry die without legit heirs themselves (quite possible), the succession seems open. Who is  next? Lisa's blood seems as good as another. Or was she to be dumped as soon as Robert is dead? Not my impression. Anyway, Stark line has some value too. Olena much wanted her. Maybe Sansa will need to marry a Royce or who ever has influence, maybe not even.

ETA:

Or is it GRRM meaning? You become "owner" of some place by your line, by your blood. Not by your deeds, by what you did to help people?

House Arryn have a cadet branch in Gulltown, so they have a better claim than Sansa if Robert and Harry die without issue.

[BlackLightning]

On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

although according to the GRRM-endorsed Meereenese Blot, Dany actually was a good leader who decided that she just wanted throw in the towel and burn shit

I don't know about that.

Between Jon, Cersei and Dany, Dany was the best one by far. But I can't stay that Dany was a good leader because there is a lot of stuff that happened during her rule that should have never 1) happened or 2) been allowed.

On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

It will be interesting if we see Sansa take on a diplomatic role for one of her brothers and has to go treat with different leaders like Cat did in ACOK. I think Sansa will be better at it than her mother was.

And her mother did a pretty good job.

You remember the part in the show of how Jon Snow left the North to go south to treat with Daenerys, Euron and Cersei? That might be Sansa's role.

I'm a bit torn about it though. Both Jon's true identity and Ned Stark's true nature as gamemaster in his own right (versus being an honorable fool) are huge bombshells. Thus, Jon needs exposure to all of Westeros. Otherwise, people will be like "Who?" The northerners and the wildlings already know him. But the southerners are mostly clueless and there are way more southerners than there are northerners? Jon needs starts mixing with the southern lords and knights sooner rather than later. And no one knows the threat of the Others better than Jon does.

But Jon is a military leader who will be needed on the frontlines when the Others breach the Wall and begin overrunning the North. Sansa would be a better person to act as an emissary and a harbinger. That said, Sansa is a very young woman with a somewhat criminal past... she's not likely to be taken quite as seriously as Jon Snow. But it makes more sense for Jon Snow to be holding things together in Winterfell while Sansa to be travelling back and forth and talking to different people.

Little bird indeed.

But then...if Sansa is the one to go south to play the game of thrones on behalf of King Jon and/or Lord Rickon, then Littlefinger's downfall is going to look completely different

[Northern Sword]

On 1/29/2022 at 5:13 PM, chrisdaw said:

You should be thinking of her as either queen or as having majority influence over a ruling king/queen. That's the logical place to take a pawn to player arc and everything points there. That's where this train ends. Dany is there for Sansa to eliminate, to bring to fruition all the reasons Westeros has to hate the Mad King's daughter and nurse her to the same fate as the last and only other dragon queen, removed by popular revolt.

Arya will fall in with Sansa in KL as her catspaw, though Arya will probably not reveal herself to Sansa. Arya will take faces and infiltrate the small council's of Aegon and Dany, intercept and read secret letters, be eyes and ears in the walls of the red keep. She will frequent the brothels, ale houses and pot shops of KL and learn the lay of the smallfolk. She will create her own network and have her own eyes on every gate, no-one will leave or enter KL without Arya knowing. And all this information she will provide to Sansa. It will be the realisation of information being the most lucrative currency, as the text has argued for in a few places. At Sansa's behest Arya will put ideas in people's heads, make up communications not theirs, such as orders, and on occasion assassinate someone and make the culprit appear someone else. Through the singers, mummers, whores and preachers Arya will have the smallfolk thinking, believing and talking about whatever Sansa needs the news of the day to be.

Sansa is going to make sure the dance happens, pull in factions who might have stayed neutral and make it massive, the more chaos the more opportunity, turn allied parties to enemies and in the end remove every likely monarch until they're scrounging around for anyone who seems half keen and half competent.

In the background the character arcs are this. What is Sansa all about now? A question Arya will need to ask herself. Is Sansa for Stark revenge? Is she for the realm? Or is she just the new Cersei and all about herself and her own power? The speeches Ned has given Arya are to persuade Arya to give Sansa a lot of rope, but in the end it will be for Arya to realise Sansa's actions are not in the best interest of anyone, they're not about righting the wrongs of Cersei or the Baratheon/Lannister rule as Arya will have thought and hoped they were doing, and Arya will move on to find the next Stark to try and fill the void.

To say one of the main protagonists in the story is there for Sansa to vanquish is hilarious in my mind. I obviously disagree. A Song of Ice and Fire. It is not a Song of Ice. Dany+Dragons = FIRE. What I think is Sansa is growing into a capable player, yet she has no way to counter dragons. Dany is in a league unto herself. The thing is, Westeros is waiting for a dragon, and will unite around her imo. I think of the Hightower's and Oldtown when Aegon started the conquest. Sansa will similarly bend the knee. You should be thinking of Sansa as a support character, likely a powerful one, but, not a main protagonist.

Arya has been at odds with Sansa the entire story. Can they work together?  Perhaps. The more likely scenario in my mind is Arya will simply go after Stark enemies, regardless of Sansa's political ambitions. You have clearly thought through how and what Arya will do once she is back in Westeros. I see some of that being likely, but falling in with Sansa as her catspaw. I think not. 

Sansa very well may be in a position to pull a few strings, a Dance may happen. But overall, the story cannot continue to fracture, it will have to move into a unifying stage. I see her using the levers of power she will acquire to pull things together. Her influence on Dany will be as a peace maker, with the larger threat in mind.

[BlackLightning]

On 1/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Rickon is the logical, uncontested heir to Winterfell. I don't see any other Stark going against their little brother.

Actually no, it would be Bran.

Rickon might be Bran's heir but Bran is first in line.

On 1/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Besides, Bran has duties, becoming a greenseer, becoming wood, dealing with the Others, nearly immortal, having the powers of gods. He never had and never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. Why leave his powers for an ephemeral live in a castle?

Technically, Bran can take his powers anywhere.

After all, they are his powers.

I don't know why people seem to think that Bran had to be stuck in Bloodraven's cave for all of eternity. Apart from the size, I don't see anything anywhere in the text that makes Bloodraven's weirwood tree more special or powerful than any other weirwood tree anywhere else.

• Highgarden has three, very famous massive weirwood trees
• the Isle of Faces nearby Harrenhal contains one of the largest weirwood forests on the entire continent
• there's another gigantic weirwood tree at Whitetree beyond the Wall
• the weirwood stumps at High Heart (as well as the massive cavern of roots underneath) and the allegedly dead one at Raventree Hall are Chekov's Gun
• there's a weirwood at Starfall in Dorne (!!!)
• Winterfell's weirwood is thematically and narratively more important than any one of those places.

He has options. He doesn't have to stay there forever. He doesn't have to become a half-human, half-tree cyborg...which he doesn't. He still wants to be a knight. If he can't be a knight of the body, then he can be a knight of the mind like Maester Luwin. Being a wizard is a part of that but...Bran still wants more.

I think the CoTF and/or Bloodraven don't want him to realize that he has options. I'm beginning to subscribe to @Megorovatheory that Bloodraven and the Three-Eyed Crow are two different people/entities and that Bran is in a trap.

And wait...doesn't the text say that eventually Bran will be able to use the power of greensight without having to be hooked up to one particular weirwood.

On 1/30/2022 at 11:20 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

If TWOW can be stretched out for 2.5 years (and it honestly should be, when you factor in all the travel) then Sansa can be Bran or Rickon’s regent if Jon chooses to pursue a different course. I think it will be Bran, since he’ll need to rule if he’s to be king in the end. Maybe LF will try to plot to get rid of him, the way he plotted to get rid of Arya on the show, and that will be what finally does him in.

 

I don't think GRRM has much of a choice.

Either there will be a significant time jump in between Winds and Dream or both books are going to take place over a long period of time. Or maybe a combination.

I don't know. I think GRRM's biggest mistake was not making a solid timeline and calendar. Clearly, their calendar system is worlds apart from any real calendar given how messed up the seasons are. What is a year if it takes decades for all four seasons to come and go?