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What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?


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9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I am curious what people such as yourself think when they read passages such as the below. So you don't think the below is the author explaining there's a definitive difference in political methods between the north and south, ok, but what do you think the author is doing here? What is he doing including this?

That tells me Sansa would never forgive the Boltons or usurp her brothers, not that she would never go North.  If anything, it says she will claim Winterfell simply because it is her right whether she actually wants it or not. 

She may rule from Riverrun or The Eyrie, but she will retake Winterfell. 

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5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

That tells me Sansa would never forgive the Boltons or usurp her brothers, not that she would never go North.  If anything, it says she will claim Winterfell simply because it is her right whether she actually wants it or not. 

She may rule from Riverrun or The Eyrie, but she will retake Winterfell. 

If Jon or Stannis with Rickon at his Stark lord doesn't do it first, but it's at least certain that she'll reclaim and reaffirm her identity as Sansa Stark and will go back to her homeland. 

And Littlefinger can't hope to try exploiting her heritage and claim to the North if she stays in the Vale forever. He's most surely planning to go north with her and an army to reveal her and have her claim Winterfell and the North for him once the battle between Stannis and the Boltons is over, and without the knowledge that there are other Stark children to put a wrench in his plan. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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11 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Her acting becoming a player doesn't make her less of a Stark, and her becoming far more cynical and sly doesn't mean that she'll lose all of her moral compass.

Yes it does and that's the point of the arc.

Regions and houses have associated traits and the Stark's is honour as most strongly defined through Ned in AGOT and continuously through other characters. The Starks are generally thought honourable and the Starks generally think themselves honourable. That Sansa is acting dishonourably makes her less of a Stark in this sense.

Her lessons now are tears are a woman's weapon, but not their only weapon. That when it comes to people who serve you faithfully, dead men tell no secrets. That self thought honourable men will willingly swallow lies with the right sprinkling of truths and inducement. She now talks sweet while thinking in Cersei's terms. Routinely pretends to be affronted to manipulate powerful boys/men by their guilt. Poisons her sickly cousin specifically against advice in the interest of his health for the sake of expedience, and internally dismisses the moral concern about it with ease, all while participating in plans banking on his death.

Sansa's arc is about how much of your soul must you sell, how much of yourself must you lose, so that you may play the game of thrones successfully, and at the end, is it worth it? It's very clearly defined and GRRM gives it away in interviews. It's not some wishy washy oh she goes north and reconnects with her Stark identity and agency and girl power and unicorns and rainbows, that's fan wishing nonsense and that Sansa discourse is often like this is painful and a disservice to what's actually on paper.

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On 12/21/2021 at 5:03 AM, Lord Lannister said:

The only point of actual strife between the Stark children will be because of their respective handlers. The Manderlys in Rickon's case, the Vale in Sansa's and so on. Jon is basically a free agent and won't be the cause of any sibling rivalry, and Bran and Arya quite literally have their own agendas outside of the North.

That also means that there will be lots of discontentment for the Stark kids will likely make the compromise between themselves without their handlers' knowledge and will similar to how Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen married against the wishes of their mother Alyssa and of their father-in-law Rogar Baratheon which created lots of tensions with them. 

Sansa might actually shows the lessons she has learned and her awakened political accumen by dealing with the unhappy northern lords, there will certainely be deals and concessions under conditions that will be made, and beggining to do her own game without her being just LF's pawn. 

Of course Littlefinger will be by far the most unhappy about the compromise between the Stark kids, and will be much more dangerous than everyone else. 

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On 12/20/2021 at 5:11 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

A compromise between the Stark kids . . . will have to be found to ensure that the North has one or several leaders without a civil war . . . 

A "compromise" is only necessary if the timing of several events is close together. Sansa would need to return around the same time as Rickon's return and/or around the same time as Robb's will being revealed (with Jon not being dead and Jon actually being the one Robb named) and/or around the same time as Bran miraculously returning from beyond the Wall. Without that timing there won't be any need for compromise. For example, Sansa isn't going to press any claim if Rickon is found and named Lord of Winterfell before she makes it back north. I doubt any of these will occur close enough to the others to be an issue.

The better question is which occurs first. Is Rickon found first or is Robb's will revealed first (again, assuming Jon's not dead and he's the one named)? Even if Bran eventually returns, it's extremely unlikely to happen first. That possibility hasn't even been set in motion yet. I suppose Sansa could return first but that seems unlikely. Littlefinger is getting all his pieces in place. Revealing Sansa too soon means abruptly trigging a war with the Lannisters before Littlefinger is ready with all his plans. Events in North, on the other hand, are already coming to head both at Winterfell and at the Wall.

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23 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

As I said, north and south divide is blatant and I'm not wasting time on it.

Littlefinger is her trainer and is nearing the end of his usefulness to her arc. He will be gone and she will be playing for herself. He is to Sansa's arc as the FM are to Arya's and Bloodraven is to Bran's. It was made clear Winterfell was her home, and that she doesn't have a home now except that which she makes. Arya will also be in the south long before she goes north.

Sansa is not primarily a love story and it certainly doesn't follow in ASOIAF that love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage. That Sansa will not love Tyrion is no argument for the two not relating heavily to each other going forward, on the contrary it is part of the point. A great deal of page in ASOIAF has been dedicated to explaining that Tyrion has an acute need to be loved and searches for it in young beautiful women, and that he is by this weakness able to be manipulated into doing their will and refuses to accept the hard truth that they're using him for material gain. Sansa is a young beautiful woman learning by her charms to to manipulate the behaviour of men according to her own wishes. Their arcs are ying and yang, tied together, married even.

Politics doesn't stop because borders change.

I've got to be honest: I find your take to be extremely narrow and unimaginative. Not to mention unsupported by the text. You are correct in identifying Littlefinger as Sansa's dark mentor figure. You are correct in comparing Littlefinger to the Faceless Men and Bloodraven in Arya and Bran's stories respectively. Where you err is in assuming Winterfell is no longer Sansa's home. If that were true, than it is also no longer Jon's, Arya's, Bran's and Rickon's home either. Since it still exists, and since all of these people are, or presumably will be, alive, it seems safe to say they will all return home. That is, after all, a crucial step in any hero's journey.

I do not believe Sansa will ever be in a position to manipulate Tyrion. He wants to rape his sister, bring fire and swords to Westeros, wants the world to feel the rage and hurt he feels. When he and Sansa meet again, Tyrion will not be in the mood for being charmed. He will fully intend to excercise his "rights" as husband. 

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13 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Politics doesn't stop because borders change.

Politics are regional and different in different regions, particularly different are the north and south, demonstrated repeatedly by the text including bluntly in the passage I quoted.

I do have to wonder what constitutes support in the text in your mind. Tyrion desires to be loved, it is a defining trait stated plainly in the text by Cersei and demonstrated repeatedly in the text by his relationship with Shae. Sansa is learning to manipulate men of power, first her boy cousin and now an adolescent/man. There are repeated scenes, in the text, of her using Robert Arryn's attraction to her to emotionally manipulate him into doing what she wants. There are numerous cross references between the parallel arcs. For example, playing the damsel in distress requiring her hero's protection. From the text.

Quote

 

"—your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

"I shall," he promised. Fool, fool, the voice inside him screamed. Why did you say that? You came here to send her away! Instead he kissed her once more.

. . .

Robert gave a gasp and clung to her, burying his face between her breasts.

"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."

She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."

"Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe.

"If you like," he whispered. And clinging hard to one another, they continued on straight down to Sky.

 

This inarguable alignment doesn't happen by accident, the parallels are not a coincidence. This is at the heart of the characters, these are the arcs, this is what the story is. It's not hard to explain as it's right there in the text. Thousands of nauseating empty words about agency and identity grounded in nothing as Sansa fans are so fond of are completely unnecessary and useless. Pitting Sansa's skills against Tyrion's flaw is key to both arcs. Sansa is an exploration of the game of thrones, what it costs to play the game. The central question is if she's lost all Stark qualities for Lannister? The pinnacle of her arc will be in answering this question.

Tyrion's mental state at the specific time of ADWD's end is just... like, I shouldn't have to address this. It has meaning, but it is obviously not going to railroad his whole arc. It has changed before and will again.

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6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Politics doesn't stop because borders change.

I've got to be honest: I find your take to be extremely narrow and unimaginative. Not to mention unsupported by the text. You are correct in identifying Littlefinger as Sansa's dark mentor figure. You are correct in comparing Littlefinger to the Faceless Men and Bloodraven in Arya and Bran's stories respectively. Where you err is in assuming Winterfell is no longer Sansa's home. If that were true, than it is also no longer Jon's, Arya's, Bran's and Rickon's home either. Since it still exists, and since all of these people are, or presumably will be, alive, it seems safe to say they will all return home. That is, after all, a crucial step in any hero's journey.

I do not believe Sansa will ever be in a position to manipulate Tyrion. He wants to rape his sister, bring fire and swords to Westeros, wants the world to feel the rage and hurt he feels. When he and Sansa meet again, Tyrion will not be in the mood for being charmed. He will fully intend to excercise his "rights" as husband. 

I fully agree with you. 

Though I don't think that Tyrion will have any occasion to exercice his "husband rights" and that his darker personality after his trial and murder of Tywin and Shae will frankly repulse Sansa, and deep down Tyrion may have some ressentment and temptation thoughts about the issue but will known himself that their marriage is basically over.

And if he tries to do it then Arya or a blade or a direwolf's arrival may dissuade him from trying too much to exercice his "rights". 

 

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Politics are regional and different in different regions, particularly different are the north and south, demonstrated repeatedly by the text including bluntly in the passage I quoted.

Politics is politics. Cultural differences between regions are beside the point. Northerners might have a more direct and blunt approach the game of thrones, but they still play it. House Stark didn't stay on top in the North by being nice.

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I do have to wonder what constitutes support in the text in your mind. Tyrion desires to be loved, it is a defining trait stated plainly in the text by Cersei and demonstrated repeatedly in the text by his relationship with Shae. Sansa is learning to manipulate men of power, first her boy cousin and now an adolescent/man. There are repeated scenes, in the text, of her using Robert Arryn's attraction to her to emotionally manipulate him into doing what she wants. There are numerous cross references between the parallel arcs. For example, playing the damsel in distress requiring her hero's protection. From the text.

Maybe you should have included the scene where Tyrion murders Shae, in cold blood, while she plays the damsel in distress, begging him for mercy. Kinda makes me suspect Tyrion is not going to be so easy to manipulate like that again. He already thought himself unlovable, Shae's testimony against him made him certain that he was unlovable, but somehow Sansa putting the moves on Tyrion is going to work? Not bloody likely.

The scene between Sweetrobin and Sansa is basically just Sansa being a babysitter. The extent to which she is manipulating the child in this scene is to get him safely down the mountain. She is not trying to seduce him. The only time she actively attempts to seduce a man is with Harry the Heir. To me, it reads like a 13 year old trying to act more mature than she is. Arriane she aint.

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

This inarguable alignment doesn't happen by accident, the parallels are not a coincidence. This is at the heart of the characters, these are the arcs, this is what the story is. It's not hard to explain as it's right there in the text. Thousands of nauseating empty words about agency and identity grounded in nothing as Sansa fans are so fond of are completely unnecessary and useless. Pitting Sansa's skills against Tyrion's flaw is key to both arcs. Sansa is an exploration of the game of thrones, what it costs to play the game. The central question is if she's lost all Stark qualities for Lannister? The pinnacle of her arc will be in answering this question.

We already know what it costs to play the game of thrones. We saw Ned, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Danaerys, Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Theon Greyjoy all take a shot at playing the game. We have Stannis Barratheon grinding his teeth while Davos plays to his better angels. We have Renly laughing himself into an early grave. We have Cersei's statement to Ned; "when you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die." We know what the cost is. We don't need Sansa turning into Cersei Lannister 2.0 to get that point across. Honestly, the ark where Sansa learns how to be an honorable leader of people who rejects nihalistic and cynical politics like those of Littlefinger and Cersei is the much better ark. The one you gave has been played to death.

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion's mental state at the specific time of ADWD's end is just... like, I shouldn't have to address this. It has meaning, but it is obviously not going to railroad his whole arc. It has changed before and will again.

Tyrion's mental state in ADwD is not railroading his ark. It is his ark. He is not going to become a sappy lovey dovey little Imp who is suggestible to Sansa's 14 year old feminine wiles. George R. R. Martin once called him "the villian." When he meets Sansa again, he is not going to be the same character as when he saved her from Joffrey. 

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I fully agree with you. 

Though I don't think that Tyrion will have any occasion to exercice his "husband rights" and that his darker personality after his trial and murder of Tywin and Shae will frankly repulse Sansa, and deep down Tyrion may have some ressentment and temptation thoughts about the issue but will known himself that their marriage is basically over.

And if he tries to do it then Arya or a blade or a direwolf's arrival may dissuade him from trying too much to exercice his "rights". 

 

Tyrion was repulsive to Sansa before he murdered Shae and Tywin. I don't imagine he will give nearly as much consideration to her feelings the next time they meet as he did on their wedding night. He has commited rape at least twice in his life. He will likely attempt something similar with Sansa. Will he be successful? Perhaps not. But he probably will try.

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10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Politics is politics. Cultural differences between regions are beside the point. Northerners might have a more direct and blunt approach the game of thrones, but they still play it. House Stark didn't stay on top in the North by being nice.

No the cultural differences have been a major point in the text. Repeatedly made in the text. Including being the specific point of the passage I earlier quoted from the text.

The rest is just typical Sansa fan hopes and dreams completely divorced from the text. Whole arcs, the bulk of established traits which have been meticulously curated are just not applicable because I love Sansa and it's not what I want for her.

Edited by chrisdaw
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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Tyrion was repulsive to Sansa before he murdered Shae and Tywin. I don't imagine he will give nearly as much consideration to her feelings the next time they meet as he did on their wedding night. He has commited rape at least twice in his life. He will likely attempt something similar with Sansa. Will he be successful? Perhaps not. But he probably will try.

For his sake, he better not try or he won't get the chance due to someone else or he will taste the fruits of Arya's training with the FM.

 

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Sansa could use her newfound political skills to find a possible solution to appease Wyman Manderly and other northern lords unhappy that they couldn't regent Rickon and obtain certain lands after the end of the Boltons, she could also try to find a solution to the Hornwood issue that has been pending since ACOK, likely she or Jon may legitimize Larence Snow as the new Hornwood lord.

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9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

We don't need Sansa turning into Cersei Lannister 2.0 to get that point across. Honestly, the ark where Sansa learns how to be an honorable leader of people who rejects nihalistic and cynical politics like those of Littlefinger and Cersei is the much better ark. The one you gave has been played to death.

do think that Sansa is currently at a tipping point for her character that could be written either way, and part of me wants her to redeem herself.

However, I don’t think that is the most likely outcome, and I do think there is reason to believe that she will be Cersei 2.0 (in a sense, obviously not the same character)… and for what it’s worth, comments like yours seem to show we do need it.

Sansa isn’t inherently better than Cersei.

Starks aren’t inherently better than Lannisters.

We are the choices we make, and should be judged based on those choices.

I wouldn’t even be surprised if Sansa ends up as the literal Lady Lannister at the end of the story.

We could go through all the subtler plot points and parallels, but at the end of the day, she lost her wolf because of her betrayal of her house. If there is one thing that separates the Ned’s of the world from the Cersei’s, it’s that he does not kill children.

Sansa’s refusal to tell the truth about the incident on the trident caused her sister and the butchers boy loyal to house stark to be hunted like animals. Her actions led directly to Micah’s death, and her comments later betray a deep lack of morality and empathy. Ned’s rule was broken and Lady died by Ned’s sword. I don’t know that her, or the Hound, can ever really be redeemed for this.

Edited by Mourning Star
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12 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

We already know what it costs to play the game of thrones. We saw Ned, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Danaerys, Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Theon Greyjoy all take a shot at playing the game. We have Stannis Barratheon grinding his teeth while Davos plays to his better angels. We have Renly laughing himself into an early grave. We have Cersei's statement to Ned; "when you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die." We know what the cost is. We don't need Sansa turning into Cersei Lannister 2.0 to get that point across. Honestly, the ark where Sansa learns how to be an honorable leader of people who rejects nihalistic and cynical politics like those of Littlefinger and Cersei is the much better ark. The one you gave has been played to death.

It's not like Sansa can ever turn into someone like Cersei anyway, haha, especially when you see how rotten Cersei was even as a kid and how insanely delluded, out of the mark, narcissist and paranoid Cersei is. 

Sansa will be represent a darker new iteration of the Starks with her being more cynical and ruthless than her father and mother (until Lady Stoneheart) and elder brother, but so are or will be each of her living siblings with Arya having become so unhinged and murderous after all the deaths she witnessed and her training with the Faceless Men, Bran who has warged into Hodor's mind so many times and has tasted human flesh when he was warging into Summer, Rickon who is very feral and violent for such a young age, and Jon will undoubtly become darker and less merciful once he comes back.

Each surviving Stark children will be darker in personality, more cynical and less honorable than Ned and Robb were but they'll still manage to keep some of their humanity and empathy for others and desire to do the right thing for their people. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

do think that Sansa is currently at a tipping point for her character that could be written either way, and part of me wants her to redeem herself.

However, I don’t think that is the most likely outcome, and I do think there is reason to believe that she will be Cersei 2.0 (in a sense, obviously not the same character)… and for what it’s worth, comments like yours seem to show we do need it.

Sansa isn’t inherently better than Cersei.

Starks aren’t inherently better than Lannisters.

We are the choices we make, and should be judged based on those choices.

I wouldn’t even be surprised if Sansa ends up as the literal Lady Lannister at the end of the story.

We could go through all the subtler plot points and parallels, but at the end of the day, she lost her wolf because of her betrayal of her house. If there is one thing that separates the Ned’s of the world from the Cersei’s, it’s that he does not kill children.

Sansa’s refusal to tell the truth about the incident on the trident caused her sister and the butchers boy loyal to house stark to be hunted like animals. Her actions led directly to Micah’s death, and her comments later betray a deep lack of morality and empathy. Ned’s rule was broken and Lady died by Ned’s sword. I don’t know that her, or the Hound, can ever really be redeemed for this.

This is not even a little bit true. Sansa didn't refuse to tell the truth about what happened to her, Arya, Joffrey and Micah. She told Ned. She obfuscated in front of the king and Cersei, because she is betrothed to their son, the crown prince. Ned shouldn't have dragged her in front of the King and Queen and asked her to tell them their son is a sociopath. The fact that you are blaming Sansa for Lady's death, and not Cersei, shows why we should not take arguments like yours seriously, because it is so flagrantly unjustified. Saying 11 year old Sansa is no better than Cersei, who committed murder at 10, just makes me discount your argument even more.

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On 12/22/2021 at 4:50 PM, chrisdaw said:

Yes it does and that's the point of the arc.

Regions and houses have associated traits and the Stark's is honour as most strongly defined through Ned in AGOT and continuously through other characters. The Starks are generally thought honourable and the Starks generally think themselves honourable. That Sansa is acting dishonourably makes her less of a Stark in this sense.

Her lessons now are tears are a woman's weapon, but not their only weapon. That when it comes to people who serve you faithfully, dead men tell no secrets. That self thought honourable men will willingly swallow lies with the right sprinkling of truths and inducement. She now talks sweet while thinking in Cersei's terms. Routinely pretends to be affronted to manipulate powerful boys/men by their guilt. Poisons her sickly cousin specifically against advice in the interest of his health for the sake of expedience, and internally dismisses the moral concern about it with ease, all while participating in plans banking on his death.

Sansa's arc is about how much of your soul must you sell, how much of yourself must you lose, so that you may play the game of thrones successfully, and at the end, is it worth it? It's very clearly defined and GRRM gives it away in interviews. It's not some wishy washy oh she goes north and reconnects with her Stark identity and agency and girl power and unicorns and rainbows, that's fan wishing nonsense and that Sansa discourse is often like this is painful and a disservice to what's actually on paper.

So here's the problem. There is no textual evidence that "regions and Houses have associated traits." Individuals within those Houses have associated traits. We see plenty of underhandedness and treachery among Northerners, from the Manderlys, the Karstarks, the Boltons. Even Ned lied to his family, which he himself regretted having to do. There is nothing inherently noble and honorable about Starks, anymore than all Freys are dishonorable, or all Lannisters are arrogant. This is a story about people, and people are complicated. As in, Robb, an honorable Stark, betrayed a betrothal, a dishonorable act. He had various reasons for his decision, some of which we will only ever be able to speculate, but dishonorable it was nontheless. Starks are not honor automatons. They are people, and their choices and decisions do not determine their Starkiness. They are Starks regardless.

The big issue with arguments like @chrisdaw's is that they take everything on page at face value. So you end up with bad takes that say that because Sansa saw Ser Dontos get murdered, the thing she takes away is "dead men tell no secrects," or "honorable men can be lied too," because she saw Littlefinger manipulate a lord. Just because Sansa is taught these things is no gaurentee that she will do these things later on. Littlefinger presents Sansa with a temptation to be as cynical and nihalistic as he is. Ultimately, she is likely to reject his worldview in favor of some kind of middle ground. Also, there is no evidence that Sansa thinks in Cersei terms. She literally rejects a classic Cersei lesson when she thinks, "when I am Queen, I will make them love me." This is a complete rejection of Cersei's worldview, where fear is the only way to keep the people loyal. As for Sweetrobin, no, Sansa is not intent on murdering her cousin. She is only vaguely aware of how dangerous sweetsleep is, and is motivated by the desire to make Sweetrobin appear presentable in court, because keeping his weakened, fragile state secret is a political necessity. We have her POV. If she was intent on murdering Sweetrobin, we'd have more than just speculation to go on. Her fault here lies in her spectacular skill at self-delusion, not some intentional focus on becoming a cutthroat politician.

My position is not that Sansa is going to become a morally pure angel of absolute mercy. None of the Stark children will. My position is that Sansa, Arya and Bran will reject the hateful worldviews presented by their mentors, and forge their own path by using the skills they have learned. For Sansa, as a politician, she will necessarily need to be ruthless, duplicitous, cunning and manipulative. That comes with the territory. But there are different approaches to the game of thrones than those presented by the likes of Cersei and Littlefinger. There's Maege Mormont. There's Catelyn Stark. Above all, there is Good Queen Alysanne, who shows us politiking at its most honorable and just. Given her textually established empathy, kindness, and idealism, Sansa is probably going to end up closer on the Alysanne end of the spectrum than Cersei's. (And I think she just might save Sweetrobin while she's at it.) 

Sansa, Arya and Bran are all headed back North to Winterfell. And they are not going to become the nihalistic cutthroats some fans want them to be.

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On 12/23/2021 at 7:03 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Politics is politics. Cultural differences between regions are beside the point.

No they're different, the text told me plainly, I quoted it for you, you resist it to pursue fandom.

Sitting under Cersei, practicing the game as Littlefinger's little partner, poisoning a cousin for expediency is all a learning curve to become a ruthless master player. That she's never sat back and thought I want to become a master player of the game of thrones and am willing to be ruthless, is no argument against anything. Bran never thought I want to become a wizard, Jon the leader of the NW, Arya a face changing killer. No the character didn't choose her arc in world... that doesn't mean she won't play, it even begins as a form of self defence, it is even addressed in the text. GRRM labels her a parrot and explains she's a dutiful learner. Watch, learn, repeat, that's her MO. And what she is and has been taught is the ruthless game of thrones, and now she's poisoning her cousin, charming and emotionally manipulating a great heir, and literally thinking in Cersei's hateful words.

I do not hate Sansa, I find her probably the second most interesting character, the themes the character has been created to explore, the game of thrones, what one must lose of themselves to pursue political power, to enact change, is extremely interesting.

Resist what parts of the text you will, but you won't be able to say you weren't told or that GRRM pulled a bait and switch.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

No they're different, the text told me plainly, I quoted it for you, you resist it to pursue fandom.

Sitting under Cersei, practicing the game as Littlefinger's little partner, poisoning a cousin for expediency is all a learning curve to become a ruthless master player. That she's never sat back and thought I want to become a master player of the game of thrones and am willing to be ruthless, is no argument against anything. Bran never thought I want to become a wizard, Jon the leader of the NW, Arya a face changing killer. No the character didn't choose her arc in world... that doesn't mean she won't play, it even begins as a form of self defence, it is even addressed in the text. GRRM labels her a parrot and explains she's a dutiful learner. Watch, learn, repeat, that's her MO. And what she is and has been taught is the ruthless game of thrones, and now she's poisoning her cousin, charming and emotionally manipulating a great heir, and literally thinking in Cersei's hateful words.

I do not hate Sansa, I find her probably the second most interesting character, the themes the character has been created to explore, the game of thrones, what one must lose of themselves to pursue political power, to enact change, is extremely interesting.

Resist what parts of the text you will, but you won't be able to say you weren't told or that GRRM pulled a bait and switch.

Poisoning her cousin for expediency?  She is giving him sweetsleep because she thinks it's necessary for his benefit.  She wants him to become stronger, not weaker.  We know this because it's in her thoughts.  

By the way, what hateful words of Cersei's has she repeated?  From what I recall, she has rejected Cersei's teachings. 

The Stark children are in arcs where they will learn skills from morally dubious mentors, and then break with them when they realize their mentors' malign intent.

Sansa is developing a mind of her own.  She is not going to blindly follow anybody, especially not Littlefinger, who she doesn't trust and never did. 

Just because you play the game doesn't mean you have to become a horrible person.  Someone like Olenna Tyrell can do so more or less ethically.  Yes, she's done some dubious stuff, but even murdering Joffrey was probably to Westeros's benefit.  Sansa may become a bit more devious and ruthless, and that is probably a good thing.  If her father had been more devious and ruthless, he might still be alive.

By the way, if you think Arya is going to become a face-changing killer, you haven't been paying attention there, either. If the FM are training her to be an assassin, they are doing so in a very roundabout fashion. But that's a discussion for another day.  

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