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What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?


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1 minute ago, GMantis said:

In Ned's chapter we have it clearly stated: "Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth."  I mean, in the very next sentence of your post you admit that she told her father, but it's not known what she had told.

what truth? That Mycah attacked Joff? That’s what she says later…

We have unreliable narrators and we don’t see what Ned heard, he has no other way of knowing the truth.

1 minute ago, GMantis said:

As for doing something, why would her father let her go in the very forest where his other daughter had already vanished and where hostile search parties were out? And what exactly could she have done to help, other than inform her father?

Scream from the rooftops! Go to the King! Literally anything!

1 minute ago, GMantis said:

We know that Ned thought that her testimony would help Arya. Why else would he want her to testify in front of the king? We know that Ned considered it the truth after hearing Arya's testimony. Why would he do that if the two testimonies didn't match?

Presumably Sansa told Ned something different than Joff, but we don’t know what she said, so it’s impossible to know what story he expected.

1 minute ago, GMantis said:

And it doesn't matter at all whether Sansa lied about this and other events. The question is solely about whether Ned had heard her version the day Arya disappeared and whether that version was correct. This is directly answered in Ned's chapter.

No, it’s not. We have unreliable narrators and we know Sansa lies a lot.

1 minute ago, GMantis said:

Your comments are not even internally consistent. First it was that Sansa told no one. Now you're saying that she told something, but that she was lying. How can you stand by both of these comments?

We do not see her tell anyone. 

Am I to believe Ned just didn’t repeat her story if she told the truth? Literally makes no sense.

Believe what you want, Sansa lies on page about the event. Her lies get her wolf killed.

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Just now, Mourning Star said:

what truth? That Mycah attacked Joff? That’s what she says later…

We have unreliable narrators and we don’t see what Ned heard, he has no other way of knowing the truth.

If Sansa had told her father that Mycah had attacked Joff, he wouldn't allow Sansa to testify since this would only worsen Arya's situation.

Just now, Mourning Star said:

Scream from the rooftops! Go to the King! Literally anything!

None of that would help. If Ned couldn't prevent the queen from sending out search parties, how exactly could Sansa change anything?

Just now, Mourning Star said:

Presumably Sansa told Ned something different than Joff, but we don’t know what she said, so it’s impossible to know what story he expected.

You have not explained why he would consider her story to be true and why he would want the story repeated to the king. The most obvious explanation for both of these questions is that the stories told by Arya and Sansa match. What alternative would you suggest?

Just now, Mourning Star said:

No, it’s not. We have unreliable narrators and we know Sansa lies a lot.

We do not see her tell anyone. 

Am I to believe Ned just didn’t repeat her story if she told the truth? Literally makes no sense.

You believe instead that Ned would allow Sansa to tell a story that would contradict her sister's testimony and show her in a worse light.

Just now, Mourning Star said:

Believe what you want, Sansa lies on page about the event. Her lies get her wolf killed.

You're mixing up separate events. Sansa refusing to repeat her story (possibly) got her wolf killed. The question was about whether she had told her story earlier and whether this cost Mycah's life. You first denied that she told anyone, then said that she lied to him and now you're saying that she should have been able to do more than her father did in stopping the queen. Speaking of believing, you seem capable of believing only these interpretations that paint Sansa in the worst light possible. Even if they contradict each other.

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13 minutes ago, GMantis said:

If Sansa had told her father that Mycah had attacked Joff, he wouldn't allow Sansa to testify since this would only worsen Arya's situation.

No idea what story she told, so this is all based on a wild assumption. If she had been telling people what actually happened it would be obvious.

13 minutes ago, GMantis said:

None of that would help. If Ned couldn't prevent the queen from sending out search parties, how exactly could Sansa change anything?

The practical results are not how one makes a moral judgment. If she had tried that would have been the right thing to do. Having not tried, and repeatedly lied about it later, she is complicit.

13 minutes ago, GMantis said:

You have not explained why he would consider her story to be true and why he would want the story repeated to the king. The most obvious explanation for both of these questions is that the stories told by Arya and Sansa match. What alternative would you suggest?

Ned hopes she would defend her sister, she didn’t… we saw the truth, not what she told Ned. 

13 minutes ago, GMantis said:

You believe instead that Ned would allow Sansa to tell a story that would contradict her sister's testimony and show her in a worse light.

In general Ned seems to like the truth, but in the defense of family he’s certainly not above lying.

13 minutes ago, GMantis said:

You're mixing up separate events. Sansa refusing to repeat her story (possibly) got her wolf killed. The question was about whether she had told her story earlier and whether this cost Mycah's life. You first denied that she told anyone, then said that she lied to him and now you're saying that she should have been able to do more than her father did in stopping the queen. Speaking of believing, you seem capable of believing only these interpretations that paint Sansa in the worst light possible. Even if they contradict each other.

We don’t know what she told Ned.

At no point does she tell the truth about what happened on page.

She repeatedly lies about it on page.

Those are the facts. Make of it what you will.

Edited by Mourning Star
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Just now, Mourning Star said:

No idea what story she told, so this is all based on a wild assumption. If she had been telling people what actually happened it would be obvious.

It's true that it would be obvious. For example, if she had told what had happened to her father, he would think that the story being repeated to the king would be useful. And look at that -  this is exactly what happened.

Just now, Mourning Star said:

The practical results are not how one makes a moral judgment. If she had tried that would have been the right thing to do. Having not tried, and repeatedly lied about it later, she is complicit.

How do you know that she had not tried? Aren't you yourself making wild assumptions right now?

Just now, Mourning Star said:

Ned hopes she would defend her sister, she didn’t… we saw the truth, not what she told Ned. 

How could Ned hope that she would defend her sister if her testimony would be harmful to her? Sansa's story could only help if it matched Arya's.

Just now, Mourning Star said:

In general Ned seems to like the truth, but in the defense of family he’s certainly not above lying.

He believed Sansa was speaking the truth. This could mean one of two things:

1. Sansa told him the same story as Arya and he believes Arya to be telling the truth

2. Sansa told him a different story than Arya and he believes that Arya is lying

If the second interpretation is correct, it would mean that Ned deliberately sent Sansa to tell a story that would put Arya's testimony in doubt and worsen her situation by telling a story that paints Arya in a worse light. Are you really going to stand by this interpretation?

Just now, Mourning Star said:

We don’t know what she told Ned.

At no point does she tell the truth on page.

She repeatedly lies about it on page.

Those are the facts. Make of it what you will.

We know that Ned thought that she had told him the truth and that he wanted her to testify. These are also facts.

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On 12/23/2021 at 2:29 PM, Mourning Star said:

Sansa isn’t inherently better than Cersei

Are you serious?

Let's talk about what Cersei Lannister has done in her life.

As a child she:

- Abused her baby brother Tyrion.

- Had a incestuous relationship with her brother Jaime.

- Killed Melara.

As a young woman:

- To keep her romance with her brother she set him up to join the Kingsguard knowing it would mess up Lannister's succession.

As a adult:

- Has no empathy for anyone who isn't Jaime or her childdren.

- Is a misogynist.

- Ordered the murder of Robert's bastards.

- Gave people as guinea pigs for Qyburn's experiments.

- Gave Margaery's singer to be tortured to make him lie about Margaery and her cousins.

- Planned to murder of Bronn, Jon Snow, Trystane Martell, Margaery.

Do I need to continue?

Edited by Odej
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On 12/21/2021 at 10:50 PM, chrisdaw said:

I could go on forever but it's really simple, she's pawn to player and there's no game of thrones in the north. Nothing is pointing her towards a future with her family, where it has concerned her family her arc has been about accepting loss and moving forward.

This is common for all of the Stark siblings. They could hardly function if they kept dwelling on the family members they have lost. Sansa might be somewhat better than Arya at this (though see her last chapter in AGOT), but she can't come close to Jon, who could calmly accept his beloved sister's death and then fail to think of her for months.

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Jon will rule the North for the winter.

Rickon will be his heir in Winterfell.

Bran isn't making it back, so he wont be a visible factor.

Arya will have no political ambitions, but Needle will drink deeply from Stark enemies and I mean DEEP.

Sansa isn't going north. She is where she needs to be, the Vale and Riverland's, wouldn't be surprised if Harrenhal is in her future. Her wolf is dead, but there is a dog around that will look out for her. Brienne will find and protect her as well. I see both of them being around when Littlefinger starts trying to pull some shit. It wont go well for him. I see Sansa as the more political southern presence for the Starks. 

She is still married to Tyrion. Something tells me they end up together. I know it sounds crazy, but she has changed so much(for the better, and for better reading). The gallant, shining, heroic knights are not all they are cracked up to be. Who knows though, for a while I thought her and Sandor were going to end up together for the same reason. All of that is my best guess, I just don't see her going north.

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50 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes.

Actions define a person not their name or who they were born to, you seem to misunderstand me.

I understood you very well. I didn't relate Cersei's actions to her name or her family, I mentioned her actions, and only her actions, to show how disgusting person she is. Can you explain which Sansa's actions put her on a place where she isn't inherently better than Cersei?

Edited by Odej
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Morning Star's arguments are a classic example of confirmation bias. They have concluded at the start that Sansa is a liar and is responsible for Lady being killed. Then they try to find support in the text for their predetermined conclusion, which is that Sansa is bad, actually. In reality, it is pretty clear that Sansa isn't responsible for Mycah's death, any more than Arya is. Ultimately, the Hound killed Mycah, and he was acting on behalf of Cersei. And in the end, Cersei demanded that Lady be killed, while Ned actually did the deed. Sansa's whole role in this sequence of events is that she told her father the truth in private, then fudged in front of the King. In all probability, Mycah was killed long after Sansa told Ned, which she did that night. She couldn't affect that outcome other than to tell Ned, which, again, is what she did. The adults are the responsible actors in this situation, not the children. It hardly requires mental gymnastics to reach this conclusion. All you have to do is read the book.

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53 minutes ago, Odej said:

I understood you very well. I didn't relate Cersei's actions to her name or her family, I mentioned her actions, and only her actions, to show how disgusting person she is. Can you explain which Sansa's actions put her on a place where she isn't inherently better than Cersei?

Pretty clearly you don’t understand what I was trying to say, as much my fault as yours I’m sure.

I said “inherently” explicitly to differentiate between the character and the actions.

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Comparing Sansa's actions and personality to Cersei's is a big stretch anyway because there is nothing compareable between the two in the first place in terms of personality and storywise. Sansa never was and will never be someone as arrogant, cruel, narcissistic, petty, paranoid, petty and devoid of empathy as Cersei.

Back to the subject how do you think that the Stark kids will resolve the leadership issues and the position of each of them while the situation in Westeros is the North and Westeros is so complicated and that the Others are coming soon ? 

What possible difficulties and tensions could there be between them (even if I don't think that there will be any real conflict) ? 

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48 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Pretty clearly you don’t understand what I was trying to say, as much my fault as yours I’m sure.

I said “inherently” explicitly to differentiate between the character and the actions.

So, what about Sansa's personality/character resembles Cersei?

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Back to the subject how do you think that the Stark kids will resolve the leadership issues and the position of each of them while the situation in Westeros is the North and Westeros is so complicated and that the Others are coming soon ? 

What possible difficulties and tensions could there be between them (even if I don't think that there will be any real conflict) ? 

There's Robb's Will to consider. As far as we know, it legitimizes Jon by naming him Stark and making him heir to Winterfell, and presumably there is something there about voiding Jon's Nights Watch vows. And some of the Northern Lords are making suspicious noises in Jon's general direction. It really comes down to this; does Jon choose to leave the Watch? What if Rickon comes back? Would Jon want to usurp his brothers place? Ultimately, I think not. Bran and Rickon have better claims anyway.

I kinda doubt there will be any major Stark on Stark conflict, honestly. The story is complicated already without bringing up the Stark version of desperate housewives. Plus, the kids each have their own lane; Jon's the Nights Watch commander, Sansa is the politician, Arya is the spy, Rickon is probably the figurehead. And Bran is God, obviously.

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4 hours ago, GMantis said:

This is common for all of the Stark siblings.

You having felt compelled to frame it as a Sansa vs the rest of the Starks shows what you're all about and why you will struggle to properly comprehend arcs.

Arya is being pushed back towards her family. From Ned's KL speech of needing to stick together to her wolf dreams in which she feels whole because she's with her pack, only to wake up alone with a hole inside her again. Arya will be the only one to go out searching to reunite with her family.

Yes Jon has been pushed to give up family (love specifically) in the name of duty from the point in which he leaves WF. When he chose to try and save Arya that was obviously choosing family over duty. It turned out poorly for him and when he comes back he will be seemingly strictly duty above all else. That's integral to his arc going forward.

Sansa is literally told to give up her old family and to think about the future. She doesn't have much choice in the matter as far as actions go but is internally embracing it.

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6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In a chapter full of lies, where Robert is constantly wiping his nose… and his eyes are red and complains of a hurting head? I’m inclined to think she is lying… but having just looked, it is absolutely not explicit.

 

I have allergies and sometimes have to constantly wipe and blow my nose, does that mean it's bleeding? Besides, they're high up on a mountain. Cold, possibly dry, air is effectively the recipe for a bloody nose. The mucus dries out, and bim bloody nose. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

You having felt compelled to frame it as a Sansa vs the rest of the Starks shows what you're all about and why you will struggle to properly comprehend arcs.

What am I really about? I just noted that your characterization of Sansa fitted the other Starks just as well, if not better, so it could hardly be something specific to her. Since all Stark siblings have underwent in many ways parallel journeys, it certainly makes sense to make comparisons between them.

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Arya is being pushed back towards her family. From Ned's KL speech of needing to stick together to her wolf dreams in which she feels whole because she's with her pack, only to wake up alone with a hole inside her again. Arya will be the only one to go out searching to reunite with her family.

Arya is (like Sansa) being told to give up her family. She has made a great deal off effort to do so and has ceased any attempts to return to Westeros (she refused an offer by the Faceless Men to send her back). She rarely thinks of her family in Dance of Dragons and not even once in her sample chapter in Winds of Winter. And yet she's failing in this effort, but it's notable that she's failing the most when she's carrying out what she considers to be justice and revenge. She openly reasserted herself as Arya Stark when she killed Dareon and began calling herself Arya again after killing Raff. So it's seems more likely that her final break with the Faceless men will occur not due to her wanting to reunite with her family but rather due to her unwillingness to abandon her quest for justice. Yes, she'll likely turn to reuniting with her family at some point, but probably not before meeting up with Lady Stoneheart to show her the futility of seeking revenge.

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes Jon has been pushed to give up family (love specifically) in the name of duty from the point in which he leaves WF. When he chose to try and save Arya that was obviously choosing family over duty. It turned out poorly for him and when he comes back he will be seemingly strictly duty above all else. That's integral to his arc going forward.

After being stabbed by his so-called brothers and considering the likely effects of resurrection, I very much doubt that Jon will be nearly as dutiful when he returns. At the very least he'll probably abandon the Night's Watch.

And while Jon abandoned the Night's Watch over Arya, this was a break in a very consistent and very successful effort to give up on his family. If his actions are in any way model for how his siblings would act, it would seem to be that even the best such effort is liable to fail at some point.

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is literally told to give up her old family and to think about the future. She doesn't have much choice in the matter as far as actions go but is internally embracing it.

More correctly, she's trying to embrace it. How well she's doing can be judged by her latest chapter (Alayne I in Winds of Winter), where despite all the tasks and plans she's occupied with, she still thinks of four separate family members and at one point almost forgets herself thinking of Winterfell.

And regarding her future, the plan she's currently set on requires her to give up on being up Alayne and return to being Sansa Stark. So even if she markedly improved her immersion in her new role, she will have to give it up at some point. In fact she's very likely to be the first Stark to openly re-appear in Westeros.

 

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1 hour ago, GMantis said:

What am I really about?

You view the text through a lens of Sansa defence and so consistently mischaracterise arcs, working your way around what the text is specifically saying with a nauseating mass of empty words. Arya will seek out her family. Ned specifically gives her the pack speech. She feels alone and empty, she only feels whole with her pack, she will attempt to reunite with her pack to feel whole again. The lesson Jon will take from having attempted to save Arya is that he should have done his duty, that is the arc as flagged forever and a day, "all warmth having fled from him", it's the whole symbolism of the wall even, the point of his ice armour as he slays his familial guilt. He just died, as in all life, warmth, leaving him. It is the most basic arc of the series and shouldn't need explaining. Sansa has found happiness as Alayne, where Arya has a hole and Jon has duty, Sansa has lemon cakes and the Vale's mini game of thrones. Like most everything else you wrote, Sansa being revealed as a Stark doesn't matter the slightest bit to her having found happiness and moving on.

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8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There's Robb's Will to consider. As far as we know, it legitimizes Jon by naming him Stark and making him heir to Winterfell, and presumably there is something there about voiding Jon's Nights Watch vows. And some of the Northern Lords are making suspicious noises in Jon's general direction. It really comes down to this; does Jon choose to leave the Watch? What if Rickon comes back? Would Jon want to usurp his brothers place? Ultimately, I think not. Bran and Rickon have better claims anyway.

I kinda doubt there will be any major Stark on Stark conflict, honestly. The story is complicated already without bringing up the Stark version of desperate housewives. Plus, the kids each have their own lane; Jon's the Nights Watch commander, Sansa is the politician, Arya is the spy, Rickon is probably the figurehead. And Bran is God, obviously.

I think that Jon will eventually leave the Night's Watch, after the betrayal of several of his men and his ressurection that will make him more ruthless I don't think that he'll think that he can stay here and he might realize that he can't do all he can to prepare the realm's defenses against the Others while he's still in the Night's Watch. 

Though there will be the question of where he stands and role he will have in the reformed house Stark, and since Rickon will surely be too young and wild yet to serve effectively as a lord (even if the skagosi may actually discipline him a bit) he'll have a position of regent or will be at least the unofficial leader of the North military, with Sansa being the political head behind.

 

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