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What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?


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50 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

You view the text through a lens of Sansa defence and so consistently mischaracterise arcs, working your way around what the text is specifically saying with a nauseating mass of empty words. Arya will seek out her family. Ned specifically gives her the pack speech. She feels alone and empty, she only feels whole with her pack, she will attempt to reunite with her pack to feel whole again. The lesson Jon will take from having attempted to save Arya is that he should have done his duty, that is the arc as flagged forever and a day, "all warmth having fled from him", it's the whole symbolism of the wall even, the point of his ice armour as he slays his familial guilt. He just died, as in all life, warmth, leaving him. It is the most basic arc of the series and shouldn't need explaining. Sansa has found happiness as Alayne, where Arya has a hole and Jon has duty, Sansa has lemon cakes and the Vale's mini game of thrones. Like most everything else you wrote, Sansa being revealed as a Stark doesn't matter the slightest bit to her having found happiness and moving on.

Is "nauseating mass of empty words" a synonym for "don't have counterarguments against them" ? I specifically compared the last two chapters for the two characters. On the one hand we have the girl who "only feels whole with her pack", who doesn't think even once about her family and only reasserts her identity when she crosses off another name from her kill list. On the other hand we have the girl who "has found happiness as Alayne", who thinks of four different family members, her best friend Jeyne Poole and is the happiest when she briefly forgets herself in a memory of Winterfell. This is straight from the text. It's just a different text from the one you prefer. The reality is that the main characters in ASOIAF are complex and their actions and thoughts can be contradictory and indicate many possible ways for their characters to develop. Not surprisingly a large part of character analysis in this series is focused on some aspects of the characters and ignoring the inconvenient ones. It's why there are so many contradictory theories around. Still, it's strange why GRRM would write the two Stark sisters in their only chapters of the next book he's found fit to release if they were indeed to follow the paths you've described for them.

As for Jon, perhaps it might also be a bit useful to look at some later text than in the first book (which may or may not have some bearing on the current situation)? Namely that being stabbed by the people he had thought to be brothers might well considerably decrease the desire to do his duty. Not to mention the effects of his resurrection.

 

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27 minutes ago, GMantis said:

Is "nauseating mass of empty words" a synonym for "don't have counterarguments against them" ? I specifically compared the last two chapters for the two characters. On the one hand we have the girl who "only feels whole with her pack", who doesn't think even once about her family and only reasserts her identity when she crosses off another name from her kill list. On the other hand we have the girl who "has found happiness as Alayne", who thinks of four different family members, her best friend Jeyne Poole and is the happiest when she briefly forgets herself in a memory of Winterfell. This is straight from the text. It's just a different text from the one you prefer. The reality is that the main characters in ASOIAF are complex and their actions and thoughts can be contradictory and indicate many possible ways for their characters to develop. Not surprisingly a large part of character analysis in this series is focused on some aspects of the characters and ignoring the inconvenient ones. It's why there are so many contradictory theories around. Still, it's strange why GRRM would write the two Stark sisters in their only chapters of the next book he's found fit to release if they were indeed to follow the paths you've described for them.

As for Jon, perhaps it might also be a bit useful to look at some later text than in the first book (which may or may not have some bearing on the current situation)? Namely that being stabbed by the people he had thought to be brothers might well considerably decrease the desire to do his duty. Not to mention the effects of his resurrection.

No it's just empty words. It's not that complex, it's all quite spelled out, it's only when you journey off on your own tangents that you need all the empty words.

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20 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There's Robb's Will to consider. As far as we know, it legitimizes Jon by naming him Stark and making him heir to Winterfell, and presumably there is something there about voiding Jon's Nights Watch vows. And some of the Northern Lords are making suspicious noises in Jon's general direction. It really comes down to this; does Jon choose to leave the Watch? What if Rickon comes back? Would Jon want to usurp his brothers place? Ultimately, I think not. Bran and Rickon have better claims anyway.

I kinda doubt there will be any major Stark on Stark conflict, honestly. The story is complicated already without bringing up the Stark version of desperate housewives. Plus, the kids each have their own lane; Jon's the Nights Watch commander, Sansa is the politician, Arya is the spy, Rickon is probably the figurehead. And Bran is God, obviously.

It's also interesting to think about what will be the reactions and thoughts of Jon's siblings about the Free Folks and how Jon intended to forge an alliance and new relation with them.

Bran and Rickon will most likely be acceptant of them thanks to their bond with Osha, and of the skagosi who aren't very different from most wildlings for Rickon, though it will be interesting to see Arya and Sansa's reactions and their interactions wih the Free Folks, maybe Sansa will have some with the Mountain clans of the Vale before going back home.

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52 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

It's also interesting to think about what will be the reactions and thoughts of Jon's siblings about the Free Folks and how Jon intended to forge an alliance and new relation with them.

Bran and Rickon will most likely be acceptant of them thanks to their bond with Osha, and of the skagosi who aren't very different from most wildlings for Rickon, though it will be interesting to see Arya and Sansa's reactions and their interactions wih the Free Folks, maybe Sansa will have some with the Mountain clans of the Vale before going back home.

Sansa and Arya have yet to encounter the Others or the weights in any form. Once they do, I believe they'll be scared straight into agreeing with Jon's approach. Facing the mythical, monstrous Others and their undead army has a way of changing people's perspective. Plus, Jon was able to make the two Clansmen visitors give him the benefit of the doubt about bringing wildlings south. His family members will probably be a much easier crowd to sell that policy to.

I agree with you about Bran and Rickon's probable sympathy for the wildling. One thing to note, however, is that the Skagosi probably aren't anything like the Freefolk. I do not believe they are cannibals, though that perception might be useful to them to maintain. I think the Skagosi are probably more like the Umbers or the Northern Clans, rough and hard, but not that different culturally than the rest of the North.

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13 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sansa and Arya have yet to encounter the Others or the weights in any form. Once they do, I believe they'll be scared straight into agreeing with Jon's approach. Facing the mythical, monstrous Others and their undead army has a way of changing people's perspective. Plus, Jon was able to make the two Clansmen visitors give him the benefit of the doubt about bringing wildlings south. His family members will probably be a much easier crowd to sell that policy to.

I agree with you about Bran and Rickon's probable sympathy for the wildling. One thing to note, however, is that the Skagosi probably aren't anything like the Freefolk. I do not believe they are cannibals, though that perception might be useful to them to maintain. I think the Skagosi are probably more like the Umbers or the Northern Clans, rough and hard, but not that different culturally than the rest of the North.

Well culturally the Umbers and northern mountain clansmen aren't that different from the Free Folk, aside from their better organisation, discipline and equipement.

And the skagosi like the mountain clans still seem to be ruled by clans rather than real noble houses. 

I also suspect that they have their own skinchangers and First Men practices and customs, and that it may be in part why Rickon was sent there to help him become a true warg master and to reconnect with this First Men heritage. 

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On 1/7/2022 at 12:19 AM, Nathan Stark said:

There's Robb's Will to consider. As far as we know, it legitimizes Jon by naming him Stark and making him heir to Winterfell, and presumably there is something there about voiding Jon's Nights Watch vows. And some of the Northern Lords are making suspicious noises in Jon's general direction. It really comes down to this; does Jon choose to leave the Watch? What if Rickon comes back? Would Jon want to usurp his brothers place? Ultimately, I think not. Bran and Rickon have better claims anyway.

I kinda doubt there will be any major Stark on Stark conflict, honestly. The story is complicated already without bringing up the Stark version of desperate housewives. Plus, the kids each have their own lane; Jon's the Nights Watch commander, Sansa is the politician, Arya is the spy, Rickon is probably the figurehead. And Bran is God, obviously.

This. I think the "compromise" between the Stark children will be cooperation, each of them contributing their special skills to the common cause.

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18 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sansa and Arya have yet to encounter the Others or the weights in any form. Once they do, I believe they'll be scared straight into agreeing with Jon's approach. Facing the mythical, monstrous Others and their undead army has a way of changing people's perspective. Plus, Jon was able to make the two Clansmen visitors give him the benefit of the doubt about bringing wildlings south. His family members will probably be a much easier crowd to sell that policy to.

What approach exactly? Or do you mean making him head of family?

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What approach exactly? Or do you mean making him head of family?

The approach of getting the wildlings south of the Wall. Ultimately the rest of House Stark, when it is restored, will likely back Jon's decision about letting the wildlings south. 

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4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

This. I think the "compromise" between the Stark children will be cooperation, each of them contributing their special skills to the common cause.

The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. This was being foreshadowed from the beginning.

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The approach of getting the wildlings south of the Wall. Ultimately the rest of House Stark, when it is restored, will likely back Jon's decision about letting the wildlings south. 

Though Sansa will likely want some concessions from the wildlings to make sure that they won't be a threat and attack the North. Maybe to have at least hostages and the children of the leaders to be raised in noble houses with the northermen values.

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26 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Though Sansa will likely want some concessions from the wildlings to make sure that they won't be a threat and attack the North. Maybe to have at least hostages and the children of the leaders to be raised in noble houses with the northermen values.

I don't think Sansa would be in a position to make demands like that yet. Jon probably would, and he's already taken hostages and treasure from the wildlings he let through the Wall, so I see this being a settled issue.

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On 1/8/2022 at 6:55 PM, Nathan Stark said:

The approach of getting the wildlings south of the Wall. Ultimately the rest of House Stark, when it is restored, will likely back Jon's decision about letting the wildlings south. 

I thought that was Stannis' idea. Maybe they'll want to follow Stannis then.

But I don't think fear will be the motive. In their different ways, both girls are learning to work they way past fear. Especially Arya.

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On 1/6/2022 at 2:13 PM, Northern Sword said:

She is still married to Tyrion. Something tells me they end up together. I know it sounds crazy, but she has changed so much(for the better, and for better reading). The gallant, shining, heroic knights are not all they are cracked up to be. Who knows though, for a while I thought her and Sandor were going to end up together for the same reason. All of that is my best guess, I just don't see her going north.

I can tell you've watched the show but haven't really read the books.

Why would Sansa want to end up with Tyrion? It was a forced sham of a marriage that is essentially equivalent to kidnapping and rape. And then Tyrion is not a good person.

At the case for Sandor is more palatable seeing as Sandor has improved. Tyrion has only gotten worse.

On 1/6/2022 at 2:13 PM, Northern Sword said:

Jon will rule the North for the winter.

Rickon will be his heir in Winterfell.

Bran isn't making it back, so he wont be a visible factor.

Arya will have no political ambitions, but Needle will drink deeply from Stark enemies and I mean DEEP.

Sansa isn't going north. She is where she needs to be, the Vale and Riverland's, wouldn't be surprised if Harrenhal is in her future. Her wolf is dead, but there is a dog around that will look out for her. Brienne will find and protect her as well. I see both of them being around when Littlefinger starts trying to pull some shit. It wont go well for him. I see Sansa as the more political southern presence for the Starks. 

Bran is going to become the King of all Westeros. It's how the story ends. Of everything that the show did in season 7 and 8, that is the only thing that has been confirmed as true and final.

And to be the King of all Westeros, Bran is going to have to leave the cave. I don't think he'll be able to stay there either. Lots of bad juju going on there

Why wouldn't Sansa go north if she and everyone who plays into her story wants her to go north

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6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why would Sansa want to end up with Tyrion? It was a forced sham of a marriage that is essentially equivalent to kidnapping and rape. And then Tyrion is not a good person.

Bran is going to become the King of all Westeros. It's how the story ends. Of everything that the show did in season 7 and 8, that is the only thing that has been confirmed as true and final.

And to be the King of all Westeros, Bran is going to have to leave the cave. I don't think he'll be able to stay there either. Lots of bad juju going on there

Sansa is married to Tyrion and so it would be difficult and have problematic social implications to try and annul the marriage for one looking to attain power. Sansa will publicly embrace her marriage with Tyrion because she can manipulate him into doing what she wishes and he will ride Viserion, instantly making him one of the 3 most powerful people in the world.

Bran ending as king of Westeros is lol D&D stuff.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is married to Tyrion and so it would be difficult and have problematic social implications to try and annul the marriage for one looking to attain power. Sansa will publicly embrace her marriage with Tyrion because she can manipulate him into doing what she wishes and he will ride Viserion, instantly making him one of the 3 most powerful people in the world.

I guess that when Tyrion comes back to Westeros as a high-ranking advisor of Daenerys (or maybe even a dragonrider, though Dany would be a fool to allow that) he .might be rewarded in some way, like by getting his wife returned to him. Knowing Tyrion's current attitude towards women and Dany's attitude towards the Starks, consent would play not much role in this decision. So I guess you might be right in the idea that Sansa not wanting to get back with Tyrion would not prevent it from happening anyway.

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Bran ending as king of Westeros is lol D&D stuff.

Bran becoming King is one of the few show only elements that are confirmed to have been provided by GRRM.

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1 hour ago, GMantis said:

I guess that when Tyrion comes back to Westeros as a high-ranking advisor of Daenerys (or maybe even a dragonrider, though Dany would be a fool to allow that) he .might be rewarded in some way, like by getting his wife returned to him. Knowing Tyrion's current attitude towards women and Dany's attitude towards the Starks, consent would play not much role in this decision. So I guess you might be right in the idea that Sansa not wanting to get back with Tyrion would not prevent it from happening anyway.

Bran becoming King is one of the few show only elements that are confirmed to have been provided by GRRM.

Yeah no he's not getting his wife returned to him. He's flying to the Eyrie for revenge but will instead find his dream, a damsel in distress in need of a hero, their backs to the wall in the prison that is the Eyrie in the winter, both a reality and a part Sansa has learned to play. And so Tyrion will play his role, that of Visenya to Sharra and Ronnel, the Winged Knight, the Lion of Lannister - Robert gets to see the bad man fly and the Vale gets taken, bloodlessly.

When Sansa sees Tyrion on a dragon she'll understand what she has, a good enough hand to make her queen, and a malleable enough husband to make her all powerful, should she play the hand right, and she will, learning how has been the arc. Alayne is training for hanging in the background unnoticed while she runs game, Littlefinger's WOT5Ks is the example to follow. While all the attention is on Arianne, Dany, Euron, Aegon and the like, Sansa will work in the quiet to shape public opinion, cultivate loyalty and ensure tensions boil over into wars where pieces need removing. And when Mad Queen Dany has been Rhaenyra'd off the throne there will be clean-skin Sansa, like the Maid to the Faith or Good Queen Alysanne to the people, with the food in the Vale to feed the city like Marge and the dragon riding husband with a history of defeating the Red God to ward the city from Dany ever returning. And no clear candidates for king and queen.

The question is, at what personal cost has it all come, and has it been worth it?

Bran is not ending on the throne lol, they're playing silly buggers.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Bran is not ending on the throne lol, they're playing silly buggers.

The idea has been confirmed to come from GRRM. Which really make sense, because Bran becoming king is so absurd in the context of the show, that even D&D wouldn't have included it it didn't came from the author.

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It will be interesting to see when and how Bran will come back in the North and to Winterfell. 

No doubt that it will complicate things even further for each faction supporting Rickon, Sansa and Jon with him being the legitimate lord of Winterfell by law no matter what others can say about his personality, age and inability to walk.

I also wonder with whose of his siblings he'll be the closest to.

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10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is married to Tyrion and so it would be difficult and have problematic social implications to try and annul the marriage for one looking to attain power. Sansa will publicly embrace her marriage with Tyrion because she can manipulate him into doing what she wishes and he will ride Viserion, instantly making him one of the 3 most powerful people in the world.

Bran ending as king of Westeros is lol D&D stuff.

Are we reading the same stuff?

Because Tyrion is not one to be manipulated. Never has been. Not then and not now and certainly not in the future.

 

7 hours ago, GMantis said:

I guess that when Tyrion comes back to Westeros as a high-ranking advisor of Daenerys (or maybe even a dragonrider, though Dany would be a fool to allow that) he .might be rewarded in some way, like by getting his wife returned to him. Knowing Tyrion's current attitude towards women and Dany's attitude towards the Starks, consent would play not much role in this decision. So I guess you might be right in the idea that Sansa not wanting to get back with Tyrion would not prevent it from happening anyway.

Oh, I'm sure that this will happen.

But it won't be anything good. It will be horrible for Sansa and her family...which  means that it will almost certainly erode any goodwill the Starks had for Dany and start a war.

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I also wonder with whose of his siblings he'll be the closest to.

Probably Rickon or Sansa.

I definitely don't think it'll be Jon.

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