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What compromise will be found between the Stark children ?


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5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because Tyrion is not one to be manipulated. Never has been. Not then and not now and certainly not in the future.

I read the text, I can't speak for you and others. Tyrion's susceptibility to manipulation is key to his arc, flagged in early AGOT.

Quote

 Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

He has this weakness.

Quote

Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

And demonstrating how it can be exploited to manipulate his behaviour is the primary point of probably the most voluminous relationship in the whole series.

Quote

 

Fool, he thought to himself afterward, as they lay in the center of the sagging mattress amidst the rumpled sheets. Will you never learn, dwarf? She's a whore, damn you, it's your coin she loves, not your cock. Remember Tysha? Yet when his fingers trailed lightly over one nipple, it stiffened at the touch, and he could see the mark on her breast where he'd bitten her in his passion.

. . .

For a time she said nothing at all. Tyrion tried to speak of other things, but he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he'd once walked in the north. Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks?

. . .

"—your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

"I shall," he promised. Fool, fool, the voice inside him screamed. Why did you say that? You came here to send her away! Instead he kissed her once more.

 

If you try taking some interest in what the text is actually giving you rather than only what you want to take from it, you may develop some understanding.

8 hours ago, GMantis said:

The idea has been confirmed to come from GRRM. Which really make sense, because Bran becoming king is so absurd in the context of the show, that even D&D wouldn't have included it it didn't came from the author.

They're playing silly buggers with you.

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9 hours ago, GMantis said:

The idea has been confirmed to come from GRRM. Which really make sense, because Bran becoming king is so absurd in the context of the show, that even D&D wouldn't have included it it didn't came from the author.

Well, one can still hope that the books will play out differently. The show has run its own course from season 5/6 and therefore hopefully GRRM chose a different ending than he had planned for the books.

Seriously, pretty please George, don´t do that. Of all the questionable decisions in the show, this was the worst IMO.

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15 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Well, one can still hope that the books will play out differently. The show has run its own course from season 5/6 and therefore hopefully GRRM chose a different ending than he had planned for the books.

Seriously, pretty please George, don´t do that. Of all the questionable decisions in the show, this was the worst IMO.

There are reasons why this decision could make sense in the books:

1. If both the Targaryen and Baratheon dynasties are extinct at the end of the series (not unlikely), a Great Council could be assembled to decide on a new dynasty. With most of the Great Houses lying in ruins by the end (quite likely) and with the Starks being in a comparatively stronger position (apart from the North, they could well control the Riverlands and be allied with the Vale), they would be elected as the new dynasty and their senior member - Brandon Stark - made king. No need to look for ridiculous explanations like Bran having the best story.

2. GRRM initially planned for a five year skip after ASOS. With the additional time the last books would have lasted, Bran would be about 17 by the end, being of age by Westerosi standards and in fact older than Robb when he was proclaimed king. Of course this skip was abandoned, but GRRM refused to change his plans, saying something to the effect that if a twelve year old had to save the world, so be it. Bran would be the most likely Stark child by the end of the books to be twelve, so he's likely to have the same ending even without the timeskip.

3. Bran could well have taken control of a dragon. As Westerosi history clearly shows, having dragons always increases ones legitimacy.

Edited by GMantis
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42 minutes ago, GMantis said:

There are reasons why this decision could make sense in the books:

1. If both the Targaryen and Baratheon dynasties are extinct at the end of the series (not unlikely), a Great Council could be assembled to decide on a new dynasty. With most of the Great Houses lying in ruins by the end (quite likely) and with the Starks being in a comparatively stronger position (apart from the North, they could well control the Riverlands and be allied with the Vale), they would be elected as the new dynasty and their senior member - Brandon Stark - made king. No need to look for ridiculous explanations like Bran having the best story.

2. GRRM initially planned for a five year skip after ASOS. With the additional time the last books would have lasted, Bran would be about 17 by the end, being of age by Westerosi standards and in fact older than Robb when he was proclaimed king. Of course this skip was abandoned, but GRRM refused to change his plans, saying something to the effect that if a twelve year old had to save the world, so be it. Bran would be the most likely Stark child by the end of the books to be twelve, so he's likely to have the same ending even without the timeskip.

3. Bran could well have taken control of a dragon. As Westerosi history clearly shows, having dragons always increases ones legitimacy.

@PrettyLittlePsycho it's also important to remember that this is a fantasy story about magic.

In Planetos, the king is the most powerful person in the nation...not only that but the king is magical and/or has a magical/ethereal bloodline. 

Bran qualifies

Also greenseer and skinchanger kings beyond the Wall, in the pre-Andal era and maybe even in the pre-First Men era were common.

Again Bran qualifies.

So you have divine right, popular sovereignty and desperate apocalyptic conditions all playing into Bran becoming king.\

Plus, it's all thematically resonant. I don't know why we didn't see it coming.

The books will play out differently and have a completely different end...but Bran becoming king is happening.

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On 1/10/2022 at 4:21 PM, BlackLightning said:

I can tell you've watched the show but haven't really read the books.

Why would Sansa want to end up with Tyrion? It was a forced sham of a marriage that is essentially equivalent to kidnapping and rape. And then Tyrion is not a good person.

At the case for Sandor is more palatable seeing as Sandor has improved. Tyrion has only gotten worse.

Bran is going to become the King of all Westeros. It's how the story ends. Of everything that the show did in season 7 and 8, that is the only thing that has been confirmed as true and final.

And to be the King of all Westeros, Bran is going to have to leave the cave. I don't think he'll be able to stay there either. Lots of bad juju going on there

Why wouldn't Sansa go north if she and everyone who plays into her story wants her to go north

Swing and a miss on that one bud, I've read and then reread the books twice now. 

Tyrion is a product of his environment(his family), and treated her well, like I said, its crazy talk, more of a feeling. But I can see it happening. I think Tyrion will redeem himself. 

I do not think Bran will be king. Nope. Again, just my opinion. But a 0% chance of that IMO. More of a behind the throne type of guy.

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36 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Swing and a miss on that one bud, I've read and then reread the books twice now. 

Tyrion is a product of his environment(his family), and treated her well, like I said, its crazy talk, more of a feeling. But I can see it happening. I think Tyrion will redeem himself. 

I do not think Bran will be king. Nope. Again, just my opinion. But a 0% chance of that IMO. More of a behind the throne type of guy.

I do think Tyrion could redeem himself, but he won't end up with Sansa, and she probably wouldn't have him. Also, he hardly treated her well. He kept her hostage, married her against her will, and now seems to want to punish her for her percieved slights against him. Tyrion was always a very gray character. He did some good things in specific situations, but he always had the capacity for cruelty as well, and shows the same arrogant Lannister pride as other members of his House. His redemption will likely come in the form of helping to defeat the Others, likely using his intellect and cunning in ways the other probably morally gray heroes need. But Sansa and Tyrion aren't going to be an item.

And I do think it is clear now that Bran will be King. Just because the show reached that ending in the most dissapointing and convoluted way possible doesn't mean George has changed his plans, and show Bran being King is a pretty huge deviation from the books if it doesn't end up happening. Remember, George gave Doofus and Dumbass his planned ending. And King Bran was most likely in it.

Edited by Nathan Stark
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8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

And I do think it is clear now that Bran will be King.

I don't think so. After all most people in Westeros are at least passively followers of 7 and for that reason the Faith is major player in the game. So "electing" a king who openly worships trees and is some kind of shaman/warlock would be very bad idea.

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18 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Swing and a miss on that one bud, I've read and then reread the books twice now. 

Tyrion is a product of his environment(his family), and treated her well, like I said, its crazy talk, more of a feeling. But I can see it happening. I think Tyrion will redeem himself. 

I do not think Bran will be king. Nope. Again, just my opinion. But a 0% chance of that IMO. More of a behind the throne type of guy.

Everyone is a product of their environment. So should people who are actively malevolent get a free pass for being products of their environment?

Tyrion didn't treat her well.

Tyrion redeeming himself is in the cards. But I feel like there's a big chance that he won't; whereas Jon, Daenerys, Sansa and Bran have only just now started sliding deeper and deeper darkness and villainy, Tyrion has been sliding in that direction since A Clash of Kings

9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I don't think so. After all most people in Westeros are at least passively followers of 7 and for that reason the Faith is major player in the game. So "electing" a king who openly worships trees and is some kind of shaman/warlock would be very bad idea.

That's the thing.

I think the coming war between the Seven (fAegon) and R'hllor (Daenerys) will destroy both and make room for the old gods. And I think there will be a revival in the faith of the old gods, partially due in part to however the Others' invasion is solved and partially due to the ascension of the Starks

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That's the thing.

I think the coming war between the Seven (fAegon) and R'hllor (Daenerys) will destroy both and make room for the old gods. And I think there will be a revival in the faith of the old gods, partially due in part to however the Others' invasion is solved and partially due to the ascension of the Starks

But the Faith has millions of followers and there are probably thousands of septs, septons and septas in Westeros. So really weakening the Faith and replacing it with something else in couple years should be very unlikely.

In fact there is a possibility that Faith will use war against Army of Death as an excuse to wipe out "heretics" in areas they are strong. Or religious fanatics will claim that only the Faith could protect the realm and anybody who disagree with that is actually supporter of Others.

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Everyone is a product of their environment. So should people who are actively malevolent get a free pass for being products of their environment?

Tyrion didn't treat her well.

Tyrion redeeming himself is in the cards. But I feel like there's a big chance that he won't; whereas Jon, Daenerys, Sansa and Bran have only just now started sliding deeper and deeper darkness and villainy, Tyrion has been sliding in that direction since A Clash of Kings

That's the thing.

I think the coming war between the Seven (fAegon) and R'hllor (Daenerys) will destroy both and make room for the old gods. And I think there will be a revival in the faith of the old gods, partially due in part to however the Others' invasion is solved and partially due to the ascension of the Starks

True, yet the way I see it, is Tyrion's worst traits were magnified due to Tywin and Cersei. I don't think of him as malevolent, personally. If ASOIAF tells anything, no one is all good or all bad. Little dude just wants to be loved. With the marriage, he made the best of the circumstance he was put in.

In what way did he treat Sansa badly ?

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2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

But the Faith has millions of followers and there are probably thousands of septs, septons and septas in Westeros. So really weakening the Faith and replacing it with something else in couple years should be very unlikely.

In fact there is a possibility that Faith will use war against Army of Death as an excuse to wipe out "heretics" in areas they are strong. Or religious fanatics will claim that only the Faith could protect the realm and anybody who disagree with that is actually supporter of Others.

I think you are forgetting about the Long Night and the wars that will happen simultaneously (Daenerys vs. Aegon, Euron vs. everyone)

It is very likely that millions of people in Westeros will die either due to warfare, starvation, sickness, inclement weather...or the amount of undead people milling about preying upon them. I think that's part of the reason why Dany's story is set in Essos and how she has so many followers in Essos: Westeros is going to be super depopulated and will need the infusion of people and resources.

I agree with you that the Faith will likely turn against the heretics in the North and the Riverlands or will launch their own anti-Others propaganda. But the Faith is clearly impotent compared to the faith systems of R'hllor, the old gods (even the Faceless Men and the drowned god). When red priests are able to fight off the undead and warm cold nights by conjuring flames or when the trees start talking again, the people that survive might feel a little different.

Also the Faith could very well overreach in their zealous lawmaking and law-enforcing...so much so that they end up losing the support of the people.

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

True, yet the way I see it, is Tyrion's worst traits were magnified due to Tywin and Cersei. I don't think of him as malevolent, personally. If ASOIAF tells anything, no one is all good or all bad. Little dude just wants to be loved. With the marriage, he made the best of the circumstance he was put in.

In what way did he treat Sansa badly ?

  1. He wrongfully kept her prisoner. Marriage or not; a prisoner is a prisoner. Sansa was not a free woman. Technically, Sansa outranks him as the eldest daughter and (presumptive) heir of a Great House with a lineage that is arguably older and more prestigious than Tyrion's. Yet, somehow, Sansa is still unable to move freely about the Red Keep (much less King's Landing). Even after her marriage.
  2. He supported a regime that betrayed her, slaughtered, humiliated and betrayed her father in a fairly sacrilegious way (knowing that her father was right all along) and that murdered her brother and mother in the most dishonorable way. But then he acts as if everything is gravy.
  3. He married her and then tried to have sex with her (and then entice her to sex) when she was clearly unwilling. Not rape but it certainly rises to the level of sexual harassment. Plus, Sansa is beautiful and vibrant and talented and Tyrion...just doesn't match. It's a bad match and, in this world, bad matches are disrespectful and harmful. Especially for women.

If your desire to be loved comes at the expense of someone else's security and agency as a human being and you choose to be loved anyway, it's a problem.

And it's not even about how much he wants to be loved. Tyrion married her for power...for her power as the heir of Winterfell.

 

The fact that Tyrion is angry at her for not being affectionate to him and for abandoning him is a huge red flag. As clever and intelligent as Tyrion is, he is a complete idiot a lot of the time. Clearly, you know that she is a prisoner of war who never wanted to marry you and had no love for you. Why are you surprised and hurt that she left you high and dry? Wouldn't you do the same?

Sansa is smarter than she lets on as she clearly understands the situation much better than Tyrion does.

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14 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I don't think so. After all most people in Westeros are at least passively followers of 7 and for that reason the Faith is major player in the game. So "electing" a king who openly worships trees and is some kind of shaman/warlock would be very bad idea.

The Faith is one of several factions in Westeros, but it is not the major player, any more than House Tyrell or the Iron Bank of Braavos. You're also forgetting the impending invasion by the Others and their weights, for which the Faith has no response. It won't be like in the show, where batgirl Arya leaps out of nowhere to kill the silly night king. I believe the Others will get south of the neck and will have to be forced back somehow, and Bran will be integral to that. And also the followers of R'hollor. The Faith, on the other hand, has no magical or supernatural power at all, so will be quite useless. They certainly will not have enough influence to stop King Bran, who is basically a god and probably wouldn't have to be "elected" anyway.

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5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

let's hope George changes his mind!

Doubtful. George has said authors should stick to their intended stories many times, so it isn't likely he'd change course because the show ending got bad reviews. It would probably be rushed if he did change his mind, and rushing things definately ain't George's style.

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2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Doubtful. George has said authors should stick to their intended stories many times, so it isn't likely he'd change course because the show ending got bad reviews. It would probably be rushed if he did change his mind, and rushing things definately ain't George's style.

There are other ways to end it that would make sense, are there not? @chrisdaw has an outline that seems to cover all the points fine. Though I dislike his points about Tyrion and Sansa. Those are ridiculous (no offense, of course).  

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

There are other ways to end it that would make sense, are there not? @chrisdaw has an outline that seems to cover all the points fine. Though I dislike his points about Tyrion and Sansa. Those are ridiculous (no offense, of course).  

I think it is pretty clear that Bran will be King. I hope to read George's version to see if it makes sense. The outline by @BlackLightning and @GMantis make more sense than chrisdaw's. I think the ending of the show is still raw for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean George will change his ending, or that it'll be a bad one.

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I doubt Arya and Bran would be relevant, at least for a very long time. By relevant, I mean they won't be present, their actions may - and I think will - have great impact even though they won't be there. If Jon is somehow released from his oaths to NW, he will be supported by a majority, if not unanimously as the lord of WF since Rickon is just a wee babe and Jon is a proven leader. At this point Rickon will most likely remain a ward of Manderly. As for Sansa, nobody gives a damn about what Vale knights has to say about the North, they have no say in that matter, that is, if they even think to support Sansa's claim to the North, which I think won't be the case if Jon becomes Lord of WF. After, if ever, Jon's parentage is made public he'll have to step down in favor of Rickon of course, in that case A marriage to Sansa and Jon as Rickon's regent will bind the family closely together and tie all loose ends.

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6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Sansa, nobody gives a damn about what Vale knights has to say about the North, they have no say in that matter, that is, if they even think to support Sansa's claim to the North, which I think won't be the case if Jon becomes Lord of WF.

If the Vale wants to join the Kingdom of the North and the Trident, then I think the northmen will care 

And if the Vale helps free and feed the North, then I think the northmen will care.

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