The Shakespearean Tragedy of Daenerys Targaryen

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Both Dany and Aegon could opt to claim either by conquest or inheritance.

I think Daenerys will have to go the conquest route unless she has a fool proof way to prove Aegon fake. Assuming there is conflict between them, of course.

[Loose Bolt]

There is a possibility that reason why 3 members of KG were at Tower of Joy and died there was that King Aerys II had decided 3 things

1. Rhaegar and Elia were not be married anymore => Aegon and Rhaenys were bastards

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna will marry => their children would have a claim to Iron Throne and any legitimate son of crown prince would have stronger claim that Viserys who was only younger son of ruling king.

3. Gave members of KG orders to protect possible heir of the throne.

After all that would explain why those 3 men did not try to join surviving members of royal family at Dragon Stone. They simply did not accept Viserys as their king and instead they decided to protect their just born new king and his mother. That would also explain why they died. Or they knew that Ned would not support claim of his nephew and so they had to stop Ned from capturing their king.

[Maia]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue is that if Rhaegar had any surviving children they would inherit before Viserys so Viserys would not be king.

 

This is actually somewhat unclear, since we have a primogeniture versus proximity to the  title holder situation here. Both principles were used to determine inheritance during the RL Middle Ages and it was very much situational which prevailed. This also happened in Westeros when king's sons inherited ahead of king's grandchildren from senior lines. i.e when Jaehaerys I chose Baelon over Rhaenys and Aegon V was chosen over his niece and nephew. There may even be an example in the Stark family tree where children of Cregan's second son Edric, including his sons, didn't inherit, but their uncle, the third son of Cregan, did instead.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I must say, I hadn’t expected this thread to be resurrected nine months after going dormant.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Maia said:

This is actually somewhat unclear, since we have a primogeniture versus proximity to the  title holder situation here. Both principles were used to determine inheritance during the RL Middle Ages and it was very much situational which prevailed. This also happened in Westeros when king's sons inherited ahead of king's grandchildren from senior lines. i.e when Jaehaerys I chose Baelon over Rhaenys and Aegon V was chosen over his niece and nephew. There may even be an example in the Stark family tree where children of Cregan's second son Edric, including his sons, didn't inherit, but their uncle, the third son of Cregan, did instead.

Yes it is unclear. But I really feel that with the case of Viserys and Aerys most people would not care that Aerys made Viserys heir over Rhaegar's children because not only do they remember Rhaegar fondly and dislike Aerys, but following the usual primogeniture route means that Rhaegar's children (with the exception of Rhaenys) would inherit first anyway. The main point I was trying to make is that if Rhaegar has any surviving legitimate male children they would inherit before Daenerys.

[Daenerysthegreat]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes it is unclear. But I really feel that with the case of Viserys and Aerys most people would not care that Aerys made Viserys heir over Rhaegar's children because not only do they remember Rhaegar fondly and dislike Aerys, but following the usual primogeniture route means that Rhaegar's children (with the exception of Rhaenys) would inherit first anyway. The main point I was trying to make is that if Rhaegar has any surviving legitimate male children they would inherit before Daenerys.

Where is it written? Didn’t Maegor the cruel get the throne instead of Aenys’s children since he had the largest dragon.

Dany has three dragon and moreover, the fact remains and is widely accepted in westeros, that rhaegars only male child was killed by Gregor clegane, his daughter was stabbed half a hundred times by Lorch, their bodies were presented  by Tywin to the iron throne.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Daenerysthegreat

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Where is it written? Didn’t Maegor the cruel get the throne instead of Aenys’s children since he had the largest dragon.

Yes. But that is might makes right. I don't think Dragons effect Daenerys' status with regards to succession by primogeniture or proximity. If by the thing that is written you mean the thing where a female Targaryen can only inherit after all males in the house, as far as I can tell it comes from the Author's own mouth.

This is from the Wiki Page 'Customs' under the heading 'Inheritance of the Iron Throne':

Quote

The agnatic principle laid down in the Great Council of 101 AC was slightly modified after the Dance of the Dragons. Thereafter, according to a semi-canon source, women came after all men in the Targaryen succession,[56] i.e., women could only succeed if the entire male line of House Targaryen became extinct.

This is from the source referenced (relevant part bolded for emphasis):

Quote

I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen.

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Dany has three dragon and moreover, the fact remains and is widely accepted in westeros, that rhaegars only male child was killed by Gregor clegane, his daughter was stabbed half a hundred times by Lorch, their bodies were presented  by Tywin to the iron throne.

When people become more aware of Aegon and possibly Jon this will be up for debate. So likely by the time Daenerys arrives her claim to being Queen because she was the heir will be contested.

[Oana_Mika]

From my understanding, the claim to the throne passes down the king's line, not upwards. Rhaegar's children would have a better claim than Daenerys if his line would not have been scrapped, which it happened when Aerys II named Viserys heir instead of Aegon.

Plus, Young Griff still has to prove he is indeed the supossed dead Aegon, while Daenerys parentage is not up to question. Also, Rhaegar never became king, that's why the claim passed down to Viserys and from him to Daenerys.

 

The line goes like this Aerys II king --> Rhaegar (the first born son and heir to the throne) who died so the inheritance passes to Aerys' second son, Viserys, not Rhaegar's son, since Aerys was still king and from Viserys to Aerys' daughter, Daenerys since neither Aerys had more sons, neither Viserys (the last heir) had children. If Viserys would have had children, they would have come before Daenerys and before Rhaegar's children.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Daenerysthegreat]

43 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. But that is might makes right.

Weren’t you giving the right of conquest thing  a few posts ago.

 

43 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

When people become more aware of Aegon and possibly Jon this will be up for debate.

People are aware of aegon. Most believe him to be an false man, a pretender. There’s a line from Kevan in his epilogue chapter about this thing. 

 

43 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If by the thing that is written you mean the thing where a female Targaryen can only inherit after all males in the house, as far as I can tell it comes from the Author's own mouth.

This is from the Wiki Page 'Customs' under the heading 'Inheritance of the Iron Throne

It’s a custom, not a law. Didn’t Aerys I pass over maekar and name his niece Aelora heiress. That’s also given in the wiki. 

[Oana_Mika]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

When people become more aware of Aegon and possibly Jon this will be up for debate. So likely by the time Daenerys arrives her claim to being Queen because she was the heir will be contested.

Well, they first have to prove to be Targaryens and for Jon, with the addition that he is not a Targaryen bastard. Or male bastards come before women too?

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Weren’t you giving the right of conquest thing  a few posts ago.

Yes, I was talking about how the rights of Targaryens to the throne come's from Aegon the Conqueror's Right to the Throne through Conquest and whether he actually had any right to do that. But now I thought we were talking about inheritance rights, which I thought were a different thing. As far as I'm aware, Right of Conquest, though it would make Daenerys queen, would not make her heir by primogeniture or proximity rules, not that it would matter because she would be queen not just the heir, but...

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

People are aware of aegon. Most believe him to be an false man, a pretender. There’s a line from Kevan in his epilogue chapter about this thing. 

Not everyone is aware though. The council are aware but they are a small minority. >99% of the continent hasn't even seen Aegon.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

It’s a custom, not a law. Didn’t Aerys I pass over maekar and name his niece Aelora heiress. That’s also given in the wiki. 

The line between custom and law seems to be really blurry. Some of the customs are laws, or the laws are based on customs. It seems to be a case of the custom being modified, which probably meant the law was modified as well, or something to similar effect.

56 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, they first have to prove to be Targaryens and for Jon, with the addition that he is not a Targaryen bastard. Or male bastards come before women too?

Yes, they will need to prove it. If they successfully prove that they are legitimate, they will come before Daenerys. If they aren't legitimate then they won't, because being bastards they won't be members of House Targaryen.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Rhaegar's children would have a better claim than Daenerys if his line would not have been scrapped, which it happened when Aerys II named Viserys heir instead of Aegon.

But we don't know if his line was scrapped or not. It says he made Viserys the new heir. It doesn't say he disinherited Rhaegar's children. If he makes Viserys heir but doesn't disinherit the children they are still in the line of succession and would inherit when Viserys dies.

When Aerys made Viserys heir, it moved him to the top of the line of succession. Rhaegar's children would still be there, just behind Viserys, unless Aerys also disinherited them. So if he didn't disinherit them then they inherit before Daenerys.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But we don't know if his line was scrapped or not. It says he made Viserys the new heir. It doesn't say he disinherited Rhaegar's children. If he makes Viserys heir but doesn't disinherit the children they are still in the line of succession and would inherit when Viserys dies.

When Aerys made Viserys heir, it moved him to the top of the line of succession. Rhaegar's children would still be there, just behind Viserys, unless Aerys also disinherited them. So if he didn't disinherit them then they inherit before Daenerys.

From the wiki searching "inheritance" : A man's eldest son is his heir, followed by his second son, then his third son, and so on. In theory, the youngest son is followed in the line of succession by the eldest daughter, after whom come her sisters in birth order. So by this logic, after Rhaegar died, before inheriting anything from Aerys II, because Aerys II was still alive, the nex in line is Viserys, Aerys' II second son, not Rhaegar's children and after Viserys, comes Daenerys.

 

I know the line of succession is not clear cut but still, you can't just ignore that Rhaegar died before Aerys. Rhaegar's children would have come before anyone if their father would have followed Aerys, but since it was not the case, IDK how they come before the king's second son and his daughter.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

From the wiki searching "inheritance" : A man's eldest son is his heir, followed by his second son, then his third son, and so on. In theory, the youngest son is followed in the line of succession by the eldest daughter, after whom come her sisters in birth order.^[ So by this logic, after Rhaegar died, before inheriting anything from Aerys II, the nex in line is Viserys, Aerys' II second son, not Rhaegar's children and after Viserys, comes Daenerys.

If you read more of the page there is a separate section for inheritance of the throne which is a bit different.

The wiki says:

Quote

Inheritance customs for the Iron Throne differ from the inheritance customs of Westeros. The inheritance rights of females with regard to the Iron Throne have changed over the years, as a result of several power struggles.

Wiki then says:

Quote

The agnatic principle laid down in the Great Council of 101 AC was slightly modified after the Dance of the Dragons. Thereafter, according to a semi-canon source, women came after all men in the Targaryen succession,[56] i.e., women could only succeed if the entire male line of House Targaryen became extinct.

So, it appears that unless specifically disinherited Rhaegar's male children would still come before Daenerys in the line of succession because as said by the Author females of House Targaryen would only inherit after all males of the line were dead.

[Oana_Mika]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you read more of the page there is a separate section for inheritance of the throne which is a bit different.

The wiki says:

Wiki then says:

So, it appears that unless specifically disinherited Rhaegar's male children would still come before Daenerys in the line of succession because as said by the Author females of House Targaryen would only inherit after all males of the line were dead.

Got it : any male before a woman *sighs

[Craving Peaches]

Double Post.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Craving Peaches
Double Post.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Got it : any male before a woman *sighs

I can't help that I'm afraid, I'm not the one responsible for the rules. They don't really make sense to me either because I thought people would be concerned with the heir being as closely related to the previous king as possible, but...

If I were in charge the heir would be selected on a meritocratic basis.

[Rondo]

23 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Daenerys will have to go the conquest route unless she has a fool proof way to prove Aegon fake. Assuming there is conflict between them, of course.

Daenerys has her dragons to prove her identity.  Aegon has no proof.  The burden of proof will be on Aegon.  Daenerys is also the more capable of the two.  She is the most capable among the young people who are in the positions of leadership.  Definitely more capable of a leader than Jon Snow and Joffrey.  Having testicles is the only thing going for Aegon.  As we have seen, no testicles, has not stopped Daenerys.  She chose not to go to Vaes Dothrak.  She chose to become a ruling Khaleesi rather than a symbolic one.  She defeated the Meerenese and now rule over them.  She defied thousands of years of the evil practice of slavery and liberated millions.  She defeated the Titan's Bastard, which points to her defeating Braavos if it comes down to a confrontation.  

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Rondo said:

Daenerys has her dragons to prove her identity.  Aegon has no proof.  The burden of proof will be on Aegon.

If people accept Aegon as real, and Daenerys claims he's fake, e.g. makes an accusation against him, then I would argue the burden of proof is on Daenerys. Also, the dragons prove she has Targaryen blood. They do not prove she is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, though I do not dispute this. The dragons also won't impact where she stands in the succession legally with regards to Primogeniture and Proximity.

1 minute ago, Rondo said:

She is the most capable among the young people who are in the positions of leadership.  Definitely more capable of a leader than Jon Snow and Joffrey. 

She is certainly more capable than Joffrey, but whether she is a better leader than Jon is debatable.

2 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Having testicles is the only thing going for Aegon. 

I think it's too early to judge that.

3 minutes ago, Rondo said:

She defeated the Titan's Bastard, which points to her defeating Braavos if it comes down to a confrontation.  

I'm not so sure about that.

[Rondo]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

but whether she is a better leader than Jon is debatable.

Not debatable.  Dany is a better leader than Jon.