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Jon should stay dead


Falcon2909

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No doubt about it, Jon is a hero of ASOIAF, though GRRM's personal definition of what a hero is and what that means for his story tends not to follow the established conventions.

What does it even mean to be Azor Ahai reborn? We can be sure that it won't be a simple fulfillment of a hero's prophecy, as even the ancient legend has a dark edge to it. No, there will be costs, complications, and collateral damage for anyone who can claim the AA mantle, guaranteed.

Jon is going to be resurrected. But I imagine that this will give his character more of a darker edge to it. He won't be completely twisted like Stoneheart, but he will come back pissed off and more than a little wolfish after living inside of Ghost. The magical aspects of the story tend to hinder our protagonists more than they help them. I certainly don't envision Jon coming back all powered up and wise like Gandalf the White. He may be powered up in some aspects, but with more power comes more opportunities for unintended consequences.

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George has done a lot of set-up work for Jon coming back roughly intact:

- Beric Dondarrion was resurrected early through for magic, though this method alone cannot protect against the body ravages of decay. And there is a Red Priest at the Wall ...

- The Wall preserves. Aemon commented on it when he left, and there have been comments that meat stored within the Wall & bodies stored within the ice cells do not have normal decay. Jon's body would very likely be taken to an ice cell...

- Skinchangers can flee into the bodies of their companion animals upon death. Jon is a warg that is bonded to an animal that itself is unusually magical...

 

If none of this foreshadowing were present and Jon were resurrected then it would strike of Deus Ex Machina. But because these elements are all present they need a payoff to avoid being loose ends. Tie all the ends together into a pretty bow and the story becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

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54 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is not a hero. His acts to this point have served the Starks, not the greater good.

I think it's fair to say that his actions as Lord Commander mostly served the Starks, as well as the helpless, rather than the greater good. Jon was reckless in his desire to be the hero, and he paid a price for it. But the story isn't over yet! Struggle and learning are crucial to the story. He will struggle even more in TWOW, perhaps get a good deal darker, but I guarantee that he will learn how to serve the greater good by the end.

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Death is not curable.  I am 100% sure of Jon's return but he is not coming back as a human.  He will return as a Super wight and just long enough to settle his affairs.  He will rule the wall as its Nightsking and send the Boltons to their graves with an army of wights.  He will turn poor Bowen Marsh into his wight.  They will take back Winterfell and win the North for Rickon.  Sansa will oppose and it will be the death of her.  

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I do wonder how Jon will feel about being now, the exact thing he is fighting against.

I can't help but feel this point wont be lost on the "thoughtful" Jon Snow.

This does create a point of possible empathy for Jon and the White Walkers. 

How will everyone else feel about Jon being now, the very thing they were fighting against. I can't help but feel this point wont be lost on the spiteful crew who stabbed him to death in the first place, as a traitor. Jon's existence after death is just more "traitor" actions.

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I do wonder how Jon will feel about being now, exactly the thing he is fighting against.

I can't help but feel this point wont be lost on the "thoughtful" Jon Snow.

This does create a point of possible empathy for Jon and the White Walkers. 

How will everyone else feel about Jon being now, the very thing they were fighting against. I can't help but feel this point wont be lost on the spiteful crew who stabbed him to death in the first place, as a traitor. Jon's existence after death is just more "traitor" actions.

Jon is not wasting time with philosophy.  He will begin looking for Arya as soon as he can get his mind in the Direwolf.  My opinion, he does this in the body of Ghost.  It will be bittersweet.  There will be sympathy for him even from me.  You may not know this but I do not like the Starks. I consider Jon a Stark.  

A Direwolf cannot be a traitor.  Ghost is not a man.  He is not held by the artificial laws of men.  The law of the pack is simple.  The strongest rules. 

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Jon does not need to be resurrected because he is not dead.  Cregan Karstark is dead, after he was glamoured by Mel, and while his cold-enfeebled mind was being warged by Jon.  But after Cregan was stabbed to death, Jon simply returned to his body, hiding in the ice-cells or wherever.

Mel anticipated that Jon would take her warning about the knives seriously after he received the news from the sky.  This happened:  after Jon reads the Pink Letter he thinks, in effect Gosh, Mel was onto something after all.  But what we don't see is Jon going to Mel for aid, as Mel had told him to do when the time came.  I think this happened, but off page, during the conspicuous time gap that occurs in the chapter.  Together, Jon and Mel conspired to foil the prophesy.  What she foresaw came to pass, but without Jon actually dying.

 

 

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I get the contrary opinion in the OP.   I couldn't understand what all the hooplah over Ned NOT being Jon's father was forever.  While not widely read in the genre, I have consumed enough fantasy to know why I like it.  There are always heroes and in heroes there is always hope.   I like a happy ending and that is precisely why I read fantasy.  The stories are much the same, but the worlds and characters and magic are the defining difference between them all.  So what's wrong with typical here? 

Because Martin is such a master at "subverting expectations" and "trope breaking" some readers may anticipate diversion from typical fantasy.   I think too much is made of this.   Book sales and television ratings prove ASOIAF is a gripping tale.  That lies in the telling of the story, not the tricks in telling it. 

Jon is a central character in this.   Dany and Tyrion are also central characters in this.  That in itself breaks the one true hero rule.    Jon's fate has enormous impact on this story.   Like his costars, Jon is polarizing because he makes mistakes and takes missteps.   He comes off very human to me in that way.   They all do. 

While I tend to think Jon isn't actually dead I do think he will return to consciousness and participate to the end of the story.   He's the dude who can rally forces.   There is no one else in that critical North vicinity who can pull this off.   We have to learn something about the Others.   Jon's been the only main character to even really consider them.   There is way too much mystery woven into Jon's story to have him simply die at this point when he is so badly needed to move ASOIAF along to its conclusion.    

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27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Because Martin is such a master at "subverting expectations" and "trope breaking" some readers may anticipate diversion from typical fantasy.   I think too much is made of this.   Book sales and television ratings prove ASOIAF is a gripping tale.  That lies in the telling of the story, not the tricks in telling it. 

I can't speak as much of a fantasy fan, because I haven't read too much from the genre, but more than anything I think GRRM has been aiming to revitalize the fantasy genre, not burn it all down. Sure he wants his surprises and twists, but the primary goal is to tell a story that moves and inspires people. The rest, as they say, is furniture. 

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Jon was stabbed with daggers two times, once in a belly, and once in the back. So I don't think that those wounds were so damaging that they could have caused his death. In my opinion, he just lost consciousness and warged into Ghost. Because of the shock, pain, and abrupt warging, he will submerge too deep into Ghost's consciousness. So it will be hard for him to separate where is he and where is Ghost. Thus he will stay lost in Ghost for a few days. Though his body won't die, and eventually his consciousness will return from Ghost's body into his own body.

In 2017 there was a woman who was stabbed 37 times and shot four times with a gun. And she survived.

https://www.cbs17.com/news/tennessee-woman-who-survived-37-stab-wounds-4-gunshots-talks-about-attack/

And there are more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Stabbing_survivors

Barristan Selmy at the Trident survived after being wounded with an arrow, a sword and a spear. His wounds were way more serious than Jon's. And he was at that time 30+ years older than Jon. Despite all that he survived and even fully recovered. And he's not even one of the Main Characters.

Just because Jon did died there you know where, it doesn't mean that in the books he will also die and then will be resurrected with fire-magic.

If Jon didn't died, how can he stay dead? So it's a wrong phrasing that "Jon should stay dead".

18 hours ago, Rondo said:

Death is not curable. 

Lazarus and Jesus Christ would have disagreed with this statement.

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14 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

He is not staying down for long.  He had evil in his heart during his last few moments of life.  Jon will be accidentally brought back by the white walkers and he will begin a streak of homicides in the north. 

Evil in his heart is a curious statement.  I read rage and urgency, but not evil.   Anyone can be blinded when presented with a threat to all they know presents itself for complete annihilation.   Much as Jon is berated for choosing to rally defense for Winterfell, the threat was real and coming for all of them at Castle Black.   Both homes, families and lives in real danger.   For his public declaration he is stabbed by men he considered brothers.  Shock certainly played largely in this.  But evil? 

I'm not bashing you, Brother, nor saying you are even wrong.  Just genuinely curious about this evil you see.      

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon was stabbed with daggers two times, once in a belly, and once in the back. So I don't think that those wounds were so damaging that they could have caused his death. In my opinion, he just lost consciousness and warged into Ghost.

He left Ghost indoors, which would hardly be cold by Ghost's standards.  Wherever his spirit went, it was cold.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

In 2017 there was a woman who was stabbed 37 times and shot four times with a gun. And she survived.

I agree that the number of stab-wounds, before he loses consciousness, is not relevant.  What seems dire is the fact that he is helpless and at the hands of people who want him dead.

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