Septa Lemore and...

[AlaskanSandman]

So Idk if this has been discussed or not. The possibility that Septa Lemore is Tyene Sands mother by Oberyn Martell. 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

"The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods."

The gods must have been drunk when they got to me. The dwarf watched Lemore slip into the water. The sight always made him hard. There was something wonderfully wicked about the thought of peeling the septa out of those chaste white robes and spreading her legs. Innocence despoiled, he thought … though Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth.

 

 

 

She has has kids, and strips in front of Tyrion despite being a Septa.

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A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

"Does it hurt so much?" Lady Tyene's voice was gentle, and she looked as sweet as summer strawberries. Her mother had been a septa, and Tyene had an air of almost otherworldy innocence about her. "Is there aught that I might do to ease your pain?"

 

 

 

The curious thing about this, is its alignment with F/aegon. 

Now, im open to the idea that Young Griff is possibly Aegon, or not. The clues are mixed, but Doran appears to not know about Aegon. Sending Arianne to verify (Idk how she would know but that's the plan.).

Ilyrio has some mysterious things about him that make people lean towards Blackfyres, but then, he gives Danny 3 eggs, and Dany happens to run into Mirri Maz Dur. Who is connected to Marwyn and Oberyn.

 

Could Varys and Ilyrio not be in complete unison? Could Varys be a Targaryen, while Ilyrio is a Blackfyre. Or are both Blackfyre supporters? Or, are they just Targaryen supporters?

 

What are your thoughts on Septa Lemore being Tyene Sands mother by Oberyn Martell?

[AlaskanSandman]

The other known possibility is Ashara Dayne, though this is the same issue. Ashara Dayne is in the Targaryen/Martell camp. Her brother was Arthur Dayne, best friend to Rhaegar and a K.g. whose fellow K.G. was also close friends to Rhaegar, and grand uncle to Elia. Rhaegar's wife.

Ilyrio and Varys send Barristan Selmey, a Targaryen supporter to Dany. They send F/Aegon and Jon Connington to Daenerys too (Until Tyrion Lannister messes that up). They also give Dany 3 dragon eggs and send her in the direction of Mirri Maz Dur. They claim to be raising the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen. (Lets just "assume" they are telling the truth.). This possibly links them to the Dornish plot, though Doran seems ignorant of Aegon, this could be one of his ploys as he keeps everyyyything very close to the chest. Oberyn though is linked to possibly Septa Lemore and Tyene, Sarella/Alleras, Maester Walgrave, possibly Half Maester Haldon, Maester Walys, Maester Marwyn, Mirri Maz Dur, and Qyburn. Aemon and Jon are possibly connected as Aemon was close to Rhaegar, and is close to Jon (Who ever his parents are, he is part Stark). Jon had a chance to possibly stop Bran from going North, and so did Samwell Tarly (who's family are Targaryen loyalist)  Due to Beric's ties to Edric Dayne, Alyria Dayne, Lem Lemoncloak/ Richard Lonmouth, and the Brotherhood with out Banners who meet up with Arya. Their are no Weirwoods in Dorne.

On the flip side, we have Bloodraven, who is a Blackwood who fought the Blackfyres, and possibly killed his own family members to arrange Aegon V to the throne. Who is possibly who Howland was praying to, when Howland was sent to 3 squires who bully him, who are possibly Lothar, Whalen, and Jammos Frey, who are Blackwoods. Who squire for Boros Blount, Harrys Haigh, and Raymund Frey. Raymund is a Crakehall from the Westerlands. All help with the Red Wedding and are sided with Lannisters, and Boltons. The Boltons torch Winterfell, and Blackwalder and Lothar help lie and blame Theon to Robb Stark. Helping to betray Robb and foil his plans, leading to his death. The House of the Undying, the Facelessmen, and Arya's training mirror Bran's. With the Waif appearing as a skull with a worm crawling out the eye socket at one point. Linking Jaquen Hagar who is in Old town, likely working against Oberyn's group. As he's trying to steal Maester Walgraves key. Then there is Euron Greyjoy with his one eye and drinks the House of the Undyings blue drink that Dany does, that is similar to Arya's candles, and Bran's weirwood paste. Howland links Jojan and Meera Reed who lead Bran to Bloodraven. Who is confused when Bran mentions the 3 eyed crow.

 

Beric is one eyed, and sits in a tree, but serves the lord of light. Then gives his life to raise Lady Stone Heart (Cat), to kill Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons. Beric is linked with Edric Dayne, Alyria Dayne, and Lem Lemoncloak/ Richard Lonmouth. With most dipping out once Stone Heart takes the lead. Though Lem stays and helps Stone Heart hang Merrett Frey.

Beric is the only one that seems hard to place really. Out side of him, it seems as though there are two groups, with the "Ice" side, not really doing a lot to help the Starks. Not that we see so far, really.

 

Let me know your thoughts though. Is it just me, or does Bloodraven seem linked to everybody opposing the Starks.

[AlaskanSandman]

As I propose these 2 factions, keep in mind. The Starks are what hold back the White Walkers. They are not originally from the North, they are of the Reach and Brandon of the Bloody Blade. They carved out a kingdom in the North from House Dustin. Aligned with House Bolton, along with House Rysewell. 

I know we tend to associate the Starks with "Ice", but Im proposing they are possibly not. That we have all been tricked or confused. That they are being attacked by Bloodraven, who is the Nights King. 13th L.C. 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

 

 

The Night’s King was a Stark? Or a Blackwood?

 

So now let’s take a look at the most famous Blackwood of them all, Bryden Rivers, Lord Bloodraven.

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When Maester Aemon sailed for the Wall in 233 ᴀᴄ, he was escorted by King Aegon V's friend, Ser Duncan the Tall of the Kingsguard, and accompanied by an honor guard of recruits for the Night's Watch. These were two hundred men and prisoners, among them Brynden Rivers. Many of the men were archers from Brynden's Raven's Teeth .^[10][4] According to a semi-canon source, Brynden took Dark Sister with him when he went to the Wall.^[18]

Brynden was elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch in 239 ᴀᴄ.^[4][10] However, he disappeared while ranging beyond the Wall in 252 ᴀᴄ.^[4]

 

 

So Bloodraven served from 252- 239Ac

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Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, For thirteen years they had ruled,

 

252-239= 13 years.

 

 

[EggBlue]

I don't think Miri , Oberyn and Marwyn are connected. sure, Marwyn was Mirri's tutor but that doesn't mean they had the same agenda. same goes for Qyburn and Marwyn.

getting back to Lemore, she is definitely  not Tyene's mom: we know that Arianne knows and has visited Tyene's mom 

Quote

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene’s mother.

so , Arianne and sand snakes must have been old enough to travel by themselves. on the other hand, through Varys we know that Lemore has been educating young Griff from an early age. it also seems that YG and his tutors have been living together somewhere in Essos ... it's a long way for Lemore to go to Dorne sometimes and pretend to live there. .. I don't really know why people still count Tyene's mom for Lemore candidates!

whoever Lemore is can reveal who Young Griff really is:

if he is a Blackfyre then Lemore is someone entirely new that we haven't heard of in the universe yet.

if Young Griff is a Targaryen , I personally think she is Ashara Dayne. I think there's a reason Martin describes the eye color of almost every new character and skipped hers, while , he spent enough time describing Ashara's eyes whenever her name came up. this of course means Varys and Illyrio's agenda is related to something other than their supposed secret lineage which should be more interesting.. I root for them being nobodies who are now shaping the world rather than lost secret princes from a rival cadet branch. 

[Thandros]

Septa Lemore probably isn't Tyene's mother. Arianne comments on crossing the Mander to go see her with three Sand Snakes. Presumably this can't have occurred too long ago otherwise I doubt Arianne would have been allowed to make the journey. Another thing to consider is that Lemore has dark brown hair. Tyene however has blond hair which makes the entire thing unlikely.

Illyrio giving Dany three dragon eggs was likely a sop to convince her and Viserys he was on their side. He never expected them to hatch.If Aegon is fake (and I'm inclined to think so for a few reasons) working with the genuine Targaryens would no doubt be great for his support. Viserys would probably have been bumped off during the invasion had he lasted that long to allow him to appear. After that the plan was to bring Dany to him and have her recognise him as her nephew to legitimise his claim. Doran is probably oblivious. Varys can't risk the secret getting out and even in Dorne he can't be certain their aren't informants who would tell to Robert or the Lannisters if they overheard a secret discussion about it. Of course if Aegon is a fake all the more reason not to let in Doran to the plot in case he realises it.

Your second section draws a lot of tangential connections that mostly seem irrelevant and the wording is so confusing that in places it's impossible to tell what your actually trying to say. (minor note it was the kindly old man with the worm not the waif though given the faceless men who knows.) Not every connection is important. Mirri Maz Duur and Maestar Marwyn is probably the most substantial and proven connection you've mentioned but even that I doubt is going to amount to much. Mirri acted against Dany for personal reasons while Marwyn was likely only connected to her through association and exchange. Him teaching her healing and her teaching him his spells. The rest you mention are mostly coincidences or unimportant to broader schemes. Sure you could argue Bloodraven is 'closely related' to a lot of house Stark's enemies. You could also argue Tywin was carrying out a massive gambit to destroy House Lannister deliberately. 

Your last section makes even less sense. Sure the Starks came through the Reach maybe related to Brandon of the Bloody Blade. So did every other house. The First men didn't pop out of the ground in the North they migrated there across the Arm of Dorne and then made their way north. Just about every detail of family relations from this period is suspect and their is no reason to suggest the Starks arrived exceptionally later than other houses. Also no Bloodraven wasn't the night King. The thirteen stuff is a coincidence and I'll note Old Nan suggests just about every Northern house but doesn't even mention the Blackwoods

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

if Young Griff is a Targaryen , I personally think she is Ashara Dayne. I think there's a reason Martin describes the eye color of almost every new character and skipped hers, while , he spent enough time describing Ashara's eyes whenever her name came up. this of course means Varys and Illyrio's agenda is related to something other than their supposed secret lineage which should be more interesting.. I root for them being nobodies who are now shaping the world rather than lost secret princes from a rival cadet branch. 

Their is one principal problem withe Lemore as Ashara and that's age. Ashara would be somewhere in her thirties according to Word of God. I lean towards her being around the same age or a little younger than Eddard so roughly 36 or maybe 37 if she were alive. Lemore is described by Tyrion as being in her forties. Probably not Implausible for such a mistake but it feels a little unlikely. Of course as you say it's only plausible if Aegon is genuine which I'm pretty certain he isn't.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think Miri , Oberyn and Marwyn are connected. sure, Marwyn was Mirri's tutor but that doesn't mean they had the same agenda. same goes for Qyburn and Marwyn.

getting back to Lemore, she is definitely  not Tyene's mom: we know that Arianne knows and has visited Tyene's mom 

so , Arianne and sand snakes must have been old enough to travel by themselves. on the other hand, through Varys we know that Lemore has been educating young Griff from an early age. it also seems that YG and his tutors have been living together somewhere in Essos ... it's a long way for Lemore to go to Dorne sometimes and pretend to live there. .. I don't really know why people still count Tyene's mom for Lemore candidates!

whoever Lemore is can reveal who Young Griff really is:

if he is a Blackfyre then Lemore is someone entirely new that we haven't heard of in the universe yet.

if Young Griff is a Targaryen , I personally think she is Ashara Dayne. I think there's a reason Martin describes the eye color of almost every new character and skipped hers, while , he spent enough time describing Ashara's eyes whenever her name came up. this of course means Varys and Illyrio's agenda is related to something other than their supposed secret lineage which should be more interesting.. I root for them being nobodies who are now shaping the world rather than lost secret princes from a rival cadet branch. 

Im totally open to suggestions on the sides, I just did a rough one based on rough clues. Ashara or Tyenes mom, both are tied to Oberyn. So either one being with Griff is odd. 

You typically don't name drop your teachers though unless you liked them or are bashing on them in the moment. She doesn't bash on Marwyn, so I assume she liked her teacher.

I didn't do a detailed run down on each side, but I think the rough list I made is pretty self explanatory. I already said lets assume Ilyrio and Varys are telling the truth based on some of their help, but you could easily put them in their own group. Targaryens or Blackfyres though, neither seem team Bloodraven really. Bloodraven killed many of his own family possibly. Like when Maekar killed his brother. We are made to believe Bloodraven orchestrated all those deaths, just so Lyanna can birth Jon supposedly. Thats not love for your Targaryen family, thats love of a prophecy. So I question Bloodraven's allegiance. Especially with him mirroring the Night King so much.  

Ill try to flush more of this out later I guess but just wanted to do a rough look and quick assessment.

 

Septa Lemore is generally thought to be Tyene's mom or Ashara though with no other good options. Both are likely team Oberyn though. So unless shes a new person, something is fishy about what happened. They were off to help Dany till Tyrion foiled it, and possibly set Aegon against Daenerys.  

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Thandros said:

Septa Lemore probably isn't Tyene's mother. Arianne comments on crossing the Mander to go see her with three Sand Snakes. Presumably this can't have occurred too long ago otherwise I doubt Arianne would have been allowed to make the journey. Another thing to consider is that Lemore has dark brown hair. Tyene however has blond hair which makes the entire thing unlikely.

Illyrio giving Dany three dragon eggs was likely a sop to convince her and Viserys he was on their side. He never expected them to hatch.If Aegon is fake (and I'm inclined to think so for a few reasons) working with the genuine Targaryens would no doubt be great for his support. Viserys would probably have been bumped off during the invasion had he lasted that long to allow him to appear. After that the plan was to bring Dany to him and have her recognise him as her nephew to legitimise his claim. Doran is probably oblivious. Varys can't risk the secret getting out and even in Dorne he can't be certain their aren't informants who would tell to Robert or the Lannisters if they overheard a secret discussion about it. Of course if Aegon is a fake all the more reason not to let in Doran to the plot in case he realises it.

Your second section draws a lot of tangential connections that mostly seem irrelevant and the wording is so confusing that in places it's impossible to tell what your actually trying to say. (minor note it was the kindly old man with the worm not the waif though given the faceless men who knows.) Not every connection is important. Mirri Maz Duur and Maestar Marwyn is probably the most substantial and proven connection you've mentioned but even that I doubt is going to amount to much. Mirri acted against Dany for personal reasons while Marwyn was likely only connected to her through association and exchange. Him teaching her healing and her teaching him his spells. The rest you mention are mostly coincidences or unimportant to broader schemes. Sure you could argue Bloodraven is 'closely related' to a lot of house Stark's enemies. You could also argue Tywin was carrying out a massive gambit to destroy House Lannister deliberately. 

Your last section makes even less sense. Sure the Starks came through the Reach maybe related to Brandon of the Bloody Blade. So did every other house. The First men didn't pop out of the ground in the North they migrated there across the Arm of Dorne and then made their way north. Just about every detail of family relations from this period is suspect and their is no reason to suggest the Starks arrived exceptionally later than other houses. Also no Bloodraven wasn't the night King. The thirteen stuff is a coincidence and I'll note Old Nan suggests just about every Northern house but doesn't even mention the Blackwoods

Their is one principal problem withe Lemore as Ashara and that's age. Ashara would be somewhere in her thirties according to Word of God. I lean towards her being around the same age or a little younger than Eddard so roughly 36 or maybe 37 if she were alive. Lemore is described by Tyrion as being in her forties. Probably not Implausible for such a mistake but it feels a little unlikely. Of course as you say it's only plausible if Aegon is genuine which I'm pretty certain he isn't.

Mistakes happen. Yea the person Arya pulled worm out of was the Kindly Old Man. Tywin wasn't trying to bring his own house down though. Typos happen though. I knew what you meant

I don't expect every one to agree with the alliances and I think Ill have to flush this out more, but it was a rough list of the two sides as I see it so far. Im interested to hear how others would rank the two sides. Unless people really believe there are more than two sides in the End. Even Baelish likely falls into one side imo, even if he's not working with the other members. Maybe Mirri was working closely with Oberyn and Marwyn, or maybe not. I don't see Mirri on the side of the Ice team though. Whether serving her own aims or not.

Yes, not all families trace to the first men, and even those who do are not confirmed first men. Like the Hightowers who may be from a sea faring people. Starks carved the North out from other houses already there.  Those are weird coincidences for such a meticulous writer. Old Nan also doesn't say which house the Night King was, she just list a bunch of Northern Houses. If she knew which one, she wouldve said. She throws out a bunch of rumors. Hardly think Old Nan is a proper history source, despite her myths largely being real. They are still tales.

[Mister Smikes]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What are your thoughts on Septa Lemore being Tyene Sands mother by Oberyn Martell?

It has not much to show for it, other than both being mothers and both being septas.  I suppose you could add that they both might be blonde, if your theory is that Lemore is Young Griff's mother.

 

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The other known possibility is Ashara Dayne,

A third and even better possibility is Mellario of Norvos.

[Mister Smikes]

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

getting back to Lemore, she is definitely  not Tyene's mom: we know that Arianne knows and has visited Tyene's mom 

Why would that rule it out?  

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

so , Arianne and sand snakes must have been old enough to travel by themselves. on the other hand, through Varys we know that Lemore has been educating young Griff from an early age. it also seems that YG and his tutors have been living together somewhere in Essos ...

Yeah.  Apparently in Norvos.  What other candidates are there?

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it's a long way for Lemore to go to Dorne sometimes and pretend to live there. .. I don't really know why people still count Tyene's mom for Lemore candidates!

But they do travel around.  And Arianne knows who her mom is, and that does not stop her mom from being in Essos.

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

if he is a Blackfyre then Lemore is someone entirely new that we haven't heard of in the universe yet.

Not true.  Mellario, for instance, could be a Blackfyre for all we know.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Thandros said:

Sure you could argue Bloodraven is 'closely related' to a lot of house Stark's enemies. You could also argue Tywin was carrying out a massive gambit to destroy House Lannister deliberately. 

Just to clarify. No one think Tywin is trying to bring down his own house.

 

As to Bloodraven's ties to enemies of House Stark. That I very much am implying and suspecting. 

House Lannister is deeply connected to House Frey through multiple marriages through out the Westerlands and Riverlands. With Walder's second son by his first wife receiving Riverrun. 

Winterfell goes to their allies, the Boltons. Who pray to the old gods and even gave blood sacrifices in the form of hanging skin from trees. Something that seems very faceless men like. Bolton married Merrett Frey's daughter, who are Crakehalls from the Westerlands. With Gemma Lannister, Tywins sister being married to another son of Walders. With some of Walders children who maybe Blackwoods, being at Harrenhal, bullying Howland Reed. Which got him in with the Starks, and got them to notice Ashara Dayne, Jon Connington, either Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell, and Oberyn Martell. All tied to Dorne where there are no Weirwoods, and they are no allies of Bloodraven likely. These are more than just a little odd. We know the Freys, Lannisters, and Boltons are working together, and the Blackwoods are suggested as in on it. The Blackwoods having been booted from the North by House Stark.

I cannot help but feel these connections alone show us that Bloodraven is not to be trusted. I could very well be wrong though, but those are a lot of ties with motive mixed in.

[AlaskanSandman]

12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

It has not much to show for it, other than both being mothers and both being septas.  I suppose you could add that they both might be blonde, if your theory is that Lemore is Young Griff's mother.

 

A third and even better possibility is Mellario of Norvos.

Ive never heard Mellario put forward, and that is an interesting suggestion. Idk if age would match off hand, but, she would have the right hair color then with out need of dying it, and she has had kids.

Mellario, Ashara, or Tyenes mom though all still leave us with Martell ties though, to F/aegon. 

So again im left wondering if Doran knows more than he's letting on. He didn't even tell Arianne about Viserys till wayyyyy late in the game after she tries her Mrycella plot.

[AlaskanSandman]

Who ever Septa Lemore is, she is a Septa that is not chaste. 

Then you have half-maester Haldon. 

With Oberyn already connected to Maester Marwyn, Maester Walgrave, and Maester Walys. Would knowing Haldon be weird? Or Septa Lemore? When we know he already bedded one Septa.

Whether or not Qyburn, who runs in Oberyn's sell-sword company the Brave Companions, is actually working for Oberyn. Is besides the point. 

Same thing with Mirri Maz Dur, who name drops her teacher with out saying anything negative about him. It doesn't matter if she's tied to Oberyn.

Oberyn's ties to Maester Marwayn through his daughter Alleras/Sarella. His ties to Maester Walgrave through his lobster gauntlet, and through Walgrave to Maester Walys. His ties to these people of Old Town, and a Septa of Old Town. Is what implicates Oberyn as possibly knowing Lemore and Haldon.

 

Lemore being Mellario, Ashara, or Tyene's mother just implicates the Martells more. Her being a random septa we've never met before does not negate a tie with Oberyn either who has bedded one Septa.

So it just leaves the who situation down the "Rhoynar" of all places, suspect.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Who ever Septa Lemore is, she is a Septa that is not chaste. 

We don't know for sure that she's a Septa.  It might just be a guise she's adopted for the journey.

At other times in her journey, she presents as a merchant's daughter.  Which, if it is not merely another guise, could be a clue she is the daughter of Illyrio and Serra.

We don't know that she's not chaste either, only that she is not a virgin (and not very modest).  She may have been married once.  And, if she is not really a Septa, she could still be married even now.

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ive never heard Mellario put forward, and that is an interesting suggestion. Idk if age would match off hand, but, she would have the right hair color then with out need of dying it, and she has had kids.

We have no information on Mellario's hair color, or Lemores.  The only clue we have is that Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  (Which can be useful for concealing Valyrian traits)

Lemore & Company have (or had until recently) a base somewhere upriver on the Rhoyne or its tributaries.  And it must be somewhere reasonably close to Pentos, and reasonably safe from Dothraki and river pirates.  The only likely location is Norvos.  And GRRM goes out of his way NOT to tell us the location of this base.    

Mellario is known to have birthed a son who is roughly the right age to be Aegon.  What if there were a baby swap, and Quentyn were groomed to take the Iron Throne as Aegon VI, while the real Aegon was packed off to Lord Yronwood to be fostered?  And why does Mellario, who threw a tantrum at being separated from Quentyn, spend most of her time in Essos, supposedly separated from all her children, including Quentyn?

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mellario, Ashara, or Tyenes mom though all still leave us with Martell ties though, to F/aegon. 

So again im left wondering if Doran knows more than he's letting on. He didn't even tell Arianne about Viserys till wayyyyy late in the game after she tries her Mrycella plot.

Doran absolutely knows more than he is letting on.  He holds his cards very close to his chest, and dispenses information reluctantly and on a strict need-to-know basis.  Anyone who assumes Doran cannot know about Young Griff because he never mentions him to Arianne or the Sand Snakes or Hotah or Balon Swan, is barking up the wrong tree IMHO.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

We have no information on Mellario's hair color, or Lemores.  The only clue we have is that Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  (Which can be useful for concealing Valyrian traits)

Lemore & Company have (or had until recently) a base somewhere upriver on the Rhoyne or its tributaries.  And it must be somewhere reasonably close to Pentos, and reasonably safe from Dothraki and river pirates.  The only likely location is Norvos.  And GRRM goes out of his way NOT to tell us the location of this base.    

Mellario is known to have birthed a son who is roughly the right age to be Aegon.  What if there were a baby swap, and Quentyn were groomed to take the Iron Throne as Aegon VI, while the real Aegon was packed off to Lord Yronwood to be fostered?  And why does Mellario, who threw a tantrum at being separated from Quentyn, spend most of her time in Essos, supposedly separated from all her children, including Quentyn?

Doran absolutely knows more than he is letting on.  He holds his cards very close to his chest, and dispenses information reluctantly and on a strict need-to-know basis.  Anyone who assumes Doran cannot know about Young Griff because he never mentions him to Arianne or the Sand Snakes or Hotah or Balon Swan, is barking up the wrong tree IMHO.

Some very good points. Idk about Quentyn being Aegon, but that would explain his weird desire to ride a dragon. Its an interesting idea i've not yet heard before

[Moiraine Sedai]

Lemore is either Ashara or a new character who can tell us about the past. Some thoughtful questions are in order. Was Ashara’s loyalty to the Targaryens so strong that she gives up her life at Starfall to raise Aegon? This would surely conflict with Ned who wants to protect Robert’s shaky hold on the throne.  Who did and what was the nature of the dishonor inflicted on Ashara at Harrenhal?  A micro insult, like calling her a slut, could have come from Brandon, Oberyn, Rhaegar, Robert . . . and was smoothed over.  But a physical assault? Only one person could get away with it.  Aerys + Ashara = Aegon is possible. The Triple A.   Lemore is the mother of the lad if this is true. 

[EggBlue]

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im totally open to suggestions on the sides, I just did a rough one based on rough clues. Ashara or Tyenes mom, both are tied to Oberyn. So either one being with Griff is odd. 

not really. Ashara is not tied to Oberyn the way Tyene's mom is. Ashara was on Elia and/or Rhaegar's side and was a dornishwoman ... all we have of her connection to Oberyn is through them and the dance she had with him in Harrenhal. but the exact same thing goes for Griff. he and Ashara knew each other through Elia and Rhaegar and they danced together at Harrenhal. .. I think in the case YG=Aegon , Elia and/or Rhaegar trusted Ashara to take him away. Varys might have come to the plan later or else he had found Ashara on the run and the fabricated story is to make Varys look good to the new king as an exchange of his help.. or something in those lines.

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You typically don't name drop your teachers though unless you liked them or are bashing on them in the moment. She doesn't bash on Marwyn, so I assume she liked her teacher.

no but remember the situation in which Mirri dropped that name: she wanted to look good and trustworthy in Dany's eyes . she didn't have any plans beforehand . Dany had just saved her and her friends from gang rape , if Khal Drogo died they would have been imposed to even worse ferocities since the men in khalassar were especially angry that they couldn't have them then and there. she saw the opportunity to save this khal to save themselves in that moment, hence, dropping a Westerosi name. moreover , liking Marwyn and having the same agenda as him aren't the same thing. 

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Bloodraven killed many of his own family possibly. Like when Maekar killed his brother. We are made to believe Bloodraven orchestrated all those deaths, just so Lyanna can birth Jon supposedly. 

I don't think orchestrating events to fulfill a prophecy works in this world.

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Septa Lemore is generally thought to be Tyene's mom or Ashara though with no other good options. Both are likely team Oberyn though. So unless shes a new person, something is fishy about what happened. They were off to help Dany till Tyrion foiled it, and possibly set Aegon against Daenerys.  

I agree.

19 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Why would that rule it out?  

because traveling between two continents in woiaf by ship and horse isn't as convenient or fast as flying by airplanes in our world:) 

19 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not true.  Mellario, for instance, could be a Blackfyre for all we know.

yes . Mellario is one of the possibilities for Lemore . but it needs too many other theories to be true as well; sure , it's plausible for all of them to be correct but I rather not rely on that.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Lemore is either Ashara or a new character who can tell us about the past. Some thoughtful questions are in order. Was Ashara’s loyalty to the Targaryens so strong that she gives up her life at Starfall to raise Aegon? This would surely conflict with Ned who wants to protect Robert’s shaky hold on the throne.  Who did and what was the nature of the dishonor inflicted on Ashara at Harrenhal?  A micro insult, like calling her a slut, could have come from Brandon, Oberyn, Rhaegar, Robert . . . and was smoothed over.  But a physical assault? Only one person could get away with it.  Aerys + Ashara = Aegon is possible. The Triple A.   Lemore is the mother of the lad if this is true. 

I agree that the only person who could rape Ashara and get away with it (Barristan couldn't touch them) is royalty. Rhaegar or Aerys who were are told raped someone.  Whether rape was the dishonor or not though is debatable. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

Things are definitely not easy to figure out. While the Brave Companions may be Oberyn's sellsword company, they try to kill the Brother Hood with out Banners and do kill Beric. 

With Lem Lemonwood being Richar Lonmouth, Beric tied to Alyria Dayne, and Edric Dayne. And Tom o Seven's being old enough to have took part in the Tourney of Singers. One would think they are tied to the Rhaegar camp, with Arthur Dayne, Elia Martell, and Lewyn Martell. Yet, they work against each other. So something is def not as it seems.

The Kingswood Brotherhood has a Thrice Hanged gentlemen that reminds me of Beric. With Fletcher Dick seeming like he could be Anguy's father possibly. With Anguy in the Brotherhood with out Banners. Then you have Uller, who is at the wall with Jon and seems faithful to Jon's side. Despite the Kingswood attacking the Targaryen's and Elia. Uller even put an arrow in Gerold Daynes hand in 281ac. 

Idk how they resurrect the Thrice Hanged though with no dragons in the world.

Only Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight are confirmed dead too, most members are likely alive. So I wonder about the Brother Hood with out Banners and what they are really up too. They also switch to Cat after they find her corpse. Thoros refuses to revive her, but Beric does anyways.

Richard/Lem LemonCloak would know Rhaegar. Tom O seven's may have too as a singer and possible candidate to sing at Harrenhal competition. Then there is Thoros of Myr sent to Aerys II. Who likely knew Rhaegar.

So it may just be, that the Brotherhood with out Banners has split ties. Beric may not know who Lem Lemoncloak really is.

[EggBlue]

30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Things are definitely not easy to figure out.

no we really need them spelled out to us. but thinking any two who have met or known each other are tied together or have the same agendas, traps you in a net of knots. those acquaintances could especially happen somewhere like Citadel. for example we have Alleras and Lazy Leo working on the same thing while they are not friends and probably have their own goals in the future; on the other hand , there are Alleras's friends none of whom were in with Marwyn's work. so Qybirn , Marvyn and Mirri are not necessary connected . 

30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While the Brave Companions may be Oberyn's sellsword company, they try to kill the Brother Hood with out Banners and do kill Beric. 

I HOPE that one's not true. what makes you think that? 

I hope you're not basing this on Qybirn Oberyn  connection, for that is slim at best , my friend. none of the Martells (who want to protect their people and usually avoid killing innocents and kids)  strike as people who would employ/establish a Company just for the sake of inflicting cruelty. that's Tywin and Roose.