Jump to content

Ashara was shopping for a husband_ :)


Moiraine Sedai

Recommended Posts

I am proposing my theory that Lady Ashara Dayne had gotten herself pregnant.  The Queen dismissed her from service because an unmarried woman with a child was a scandal. Hypocrisy it was but that was how the nobility rolled.  Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man.  I am further suggesting that she didn’t know who the father was at the time. She was sleeping with more than one man.  Aerys, or Rhaegar, or both was in the rotation. Perhaps Oberyn was as well. Aerys, unsure of the child’s paternity, was not going to claim. Aerys had a madness attack at the tourney and called out Ashara. Publicly shamed, she turned to a naive but compassionate Eddard Stark. They fall in love. The kind Shy Wolf agrees to marry Ashara and take her and her bastard after his fostership ends. The rebellion happens and the best laid plans go awry.

Ashara has her baby at either Starfall or The Tower of Joy. The child has blonde hair. They can’t name him Aegon though. The real one is still living. Meanwhile, Lyanna has a miscarriage and dies. An unwed getting pregnant is a scandal. Ned buries child and mother. He goes to Starfall and he and Lyanna do IT. Her first born is part Targaryen and she names him Aegon after the first dies. She gives birth to a second child, Jon Snow. Ned will soon be married. They part ways. Lemore is not a real Septa. It’s a made up identity to hide Ashara Dayne. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree she probably got pregnant from Rhaegar, who wanted to make the "third head of the dragon", and who then ditched her when he changed his mind and thought Lyanna was the one to have the child with. But I think her child was eventually taken away from her and sent to Dragonstone, or she went to Dragonstone as well, as an heir to Rhaegar was too precious to the royalists. When the Targaryens fled, they took her child away, or she left with Darry and co., and that child is Daenerys. Daenerys has memories that seem to be of Dragonstone, so it would make sense that she would be older than she thinks she is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 The Queen dismissed her from service because an unmarried woman with a child was a scandal.

Ashara was Princess Elia's lady-in-waiting, not Queen Rhaella's. There's no reason to the queen dismissed Ashara from service since Ashara didn't serve the queen at all.

On 12/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man.

What behavior was that exactly?

On 12/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

She was sleeping with more than one man.  Aerys, or Rhaegar, or both was in the rotation. Perhaps Oberyn was as well. Aerys, unsure of the child’s paternity, was not going to claim. Aerys had a madness attack at the tourney and called out Ashara. Publicly shamed, she turned to a naive but compassionate Eddard Stark.

Elia and Rhaegar lived in Dragonstone and as Ashara was one of the princess's lady-in-waiting I suppose she lived there too when they moved, not King's Landing. Therefore, I believe that an affair between Ashara and Aerys is not likely. If Aerys had an affair with her and exposed the girl in Harrenhal everyone would have known about it. And nothing is mentioned in the books.

An affair with Rhaegar is more plausible, but I don't see anything to suggest it.

On 12/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ashara has her baby at either Starfall or The Tower of Joy. The child has blonde hair. They can’t name him Aegon though. The real one is still living. Meanwhile, Lyanna has a miscarriage and dies. An unwed getting pregnant is a scandal. Ned buries child and mother. He goes to Starfall and he and Lyanna do IT. Her first born is part Targaryen and she names him Aegon after the first dies. She gives birth to a second child, Jon Snow. Ned will soon be married. They part ways. Lemore is not a real Septa. It’s a made up identity to hide Ashara Dayne. 

This doesn't make any sense.

Not only does it go against everything we know about Ned Stark, but the timeline doesn't match. When Ned went to Starfall he was already married to Catelyn, the two were married at the beginning of Robert's rebellion. If Jon was conceived after the events of the Tower of Joy then he would be born months after Ned returned to the North, after the rebellion, with a bastard baby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the theories presented so far; however, Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark and Mance Rayder.  Ashara or Lemore if you would rather, was not going to raise him.  Aegon is a Targaryen bastard.  She took 'Aegon' and raised him.  The deaths of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon cracked the door open for 'Aegon' to begin his claim.  Ashara and Ned agreed not to challenge Robert's claim.  Their deaths cleared the way for Ashara's conscience, who is Lemore.  Illyrio was going to have Ned and Robert assassinated anyway.  Juaqen was the man sent to kill Ned and Robert but the Lannisters beat him to the job. 

One seemingly minor detail make me think Brandon Stark is the second likely dad for Jon Snow.  Only Mance is a better candidate for the father.  Ned treated Brandon and Lyanna as if they were the lord and lady of Winterfell.  I assume the two had an incestuous relationship and wedded under a weirwood.  So by rights, Jon Snow is the heir to Winterfell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really interesting question here about our #1 mystery lady in the series.   We had a couple of lengthy conversations a few years back about events at Harrenhal which left me utterly convinced that Ashara was spying and passing information for Rhaegar.  There is much speculation over the identity of her child's father.    Events at Harrenhal shaped the immediate and extended futures of Westeros.  While the biggest player of the game (Tywin Lannister) was not in attendance the tourney did appear to be something of a meet up for most of the eligible bachelors of the time.  Lyanna Stark and Ashara Dayne are the only eligible bachelorettes I recall were there while the heirs to the North, Stormlands and Reach as well as the Sword of the Morning and Prince of Dragonstone all strutted about not to mention local heroes such as Barristan the Bold.  An awful lot of hinky happening at Harrenhal.  

We don't get a lot on Ashara, mostly comments on her beauty.   Ned seems to get riled up over accusations of her being Jon's mother, preferring the world at large believe his bastard's mother was a wet nurse.   Screams protection to me.  Sure, Ned might have fallen in love with her, but we never hear of a betrothal and we know Ned wasn't sleeping around with anyone after he married Cat.  I've asked myself if I could picture Ned doing the tubesnake boogie with anyone and keep coming up with no way.  Ned was a good boy.  All I know about Ashara is that she was beautiful.  

Now 1 thing I think gets overlooked a lot about the Ashara Dayne mystery is there was another very strange person in attendance at Harrenhal--namely Howland Reed.   He is a weird cat on a weird adventure and only happens across the lights of the tourney to be prompted to check it out getting into serious trouble at his first steps.  We get half of what we know about Ashara Dayne from Howland Reed's children.   Curious that.   Why would he even tell his kids about this woman?  Take the time to describe her beauty and her many dancing partners?   Why, he too fell in love with her!  That's why his kids know this story.  Howland Reed won the heart of the most desirable woman in the land.  I think Howland is the father of the child and returning Dawn to Starfall was a cover for taking Ashara to the north to be with her beloved.  That baby was Meera, not Aegon or Jon or Dany.  Just a brilliant, brave and loyal frog spear fishing girl from the Neck.  

Too much fun speculating on Ashara Dayne.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon is at least half Stark. His physical features of a very long face mark him for a Stark. His short temper also points to him being a Stark.  Surely some of Ashara's beauty would have made it past the Stark gene down to Jon.  But he and Arya have the Starkest look among the children.  I am going to support Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow for now.  We will know more in WoW. 

Ashara was flirtatious at the tournament.  It was noted because the behavior is unusual for a lady.  She was either suffering from a case of too much alcohol (or worse) or she was desperate for a husband.  I agree with the Op's and think she was looking for a man to save her honor.  I  cannot agree that Rhaegar pegged her and got her with child.  Aerys was the father if Aegon is a royal bastard of Ashara's.  The old boy was planting his seeds in the Dayne garden and Gerold Dayne is another secret bastard of his.  Somebody picked up the tab for Gerold's mother and gave him a father. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

I am going to support Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow for now.  We will know more in WoW. 

Why would they engage in an incestuous relationship? 

2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Ashara was flirtatious at the tournament. 

How so? Is dancing now flirtatious? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 10:46 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Meanwhile, Lyanna has a miscarriage and dies.

So what was the promise to Lyanna that seems to haunt Ned?

On 12/23/2021 at 10:46 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ned buries child and mother. He goes to Starfall and he and Lyanna do IT.

I think you mean Ashara and not Lyanna. Didn't Ned leave for Winterfell much sooner than 9 months after visiting Starfall?

 

On 12/23/2021 at 10:46 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man.

Dancing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark and Mance Rayder. 

What hints in the books support that? I had never heard of this theory before. So Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and spent months out watching another guy having sex with her?

18 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Ned treated Brandon and Lyanna as if they were the lord and lady of Winterfell.  I assume the two had an incestuous relationship and wedded under a weirwood.  So by rights, Jon Snow is the heir to Winterfell. 

Brandon was the eldest son, he should be the Lord of Winterfell if he hadn't die so it's natural Ned thinks of him this way. About Lyanna, she was a lady of Winterfell by birth and since her mother's death she became the lady, but I don't remember Ned thinking about her this way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

where was this in the books? laughing eyes ?

It's here, when Meera is telling the story of th KotLT:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

So she danced with Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martel, Lord of Griffins (?), and Ned Stark.  Not sure if that qualifies as flirting or just having a good time.  She only danced with Ned when Brandon asked if Ned could dance with her. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no indication that the man who “dishonored her” is also the Stark “she looked to” instead of Barristan. It sounds instead like she looked to Stark, and could have looked to Barristan if he unhorsed Rhaegar, for some sort of help or protection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

It's here, when Meera is telling the story of th KotLT:

So she danced with Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martel, Lord of Griffins (?), and Ned Stark.  Not sure if that qualifies as flirting or just having a good time.  She only danced with Ned when Brandon asked if Ned could dance with her. 

I thought he had seen something other than this. Dancing is hardly flirtation especially knowing who she danced with:

white sword: either her brother or Barristan (the guy who had a crush on her and not marriable)

red snake: the prince of their kingdom who was also brother of the princess she served so there must be acquaintance there anyway . 

lord of Griffins : her bestie's husband's gay bestie :) who also might live with her at court of dragonstone

and Ned 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's here, when Meera is telling the story of th KotLT:

So she danced with Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martel, Lord of Griffins (?), and Ned Stark.  Not sure if that qualifies as flirting or just having a good time.  She only danced with Ned when Brandon asked if Ned could dance with her. 

I thought Jon Connington was the Lord of Griffins for all it's worth.  Some where in the kids' story the knight of skulls and kisses is mentioned.   I think that's Richard Lonmouth.  Sure hope we get some more of Ashara Dayne's behavior at Harrenhal from one of them.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I thought he had seen something other than this. Dancing is hardly flirtation especially knowing who she danced with:

white sword: either her brother or Barristan (the guy who had a crush on her and not marriable)

red snake: the prince of their kingdom who was also brother of the princess she served so there must be acquaintance there anyway . 

lord of Griffins : her bestie's husband's gay bestie :) who also might live with her at court of dragonstone

and Ned 

 

 

Now you did it.   I thought the White Sword she danced with her uncle, Llewyn Martel.   Thanks for the weigh in on Jon Con, too.  We might just be right on this one...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Egged said:

There is no indication that the man who “dishonored her” is also the Stark “she looked to” instead of Barristan. It sounds instead like she looked to Stark, and could have looked to Barristan if he unhorsed Rhaegar, for some sort of help or protection.

And we have the matter of dishonor coming from Barristan Selmy who I'm sure wins essay contests on what he believes is honor.  There is no mention of dishonor from Meera or Jojen.   One of the excellent older posters suggested the Stark Ashara looked to was Lyanna.   I think that is sweet considering Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned.  Perhaps Ashara asked Lyanna to ask Howland (or someone else) to dance with her.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...