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Ashara was shopping for a husband_ :)


Moiraine Sedai

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On 12/23/2021 at 8:46 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I am proposing my theory that Lady Ashara Dayne had gotten herself pregnant.  The Queen dismissed her from service because an unmarried woman with a child was a scandal. Hypocrisy it was but that was how the nobility rolled.  Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man.  I am further suggesting that she didn’t know who the father was at the time. She was sleeping with more than one man.  Aerys, or Rhaegar, or both was in the rotation. Perhaps Oberyn was as well. Aerys, unsure of the child’s paternity, was not going to claim. Aerys had a madness attack at the tourney and called out Ashara. Publicly shamed, she turned to a naive but compassionate Eddard Stark. They fall in love. The kind Shy Wolf agrees to marry Ashara and take her and her bastard after his fostership ends. The rebellion happens and the best laid plans go awry.

Ashara has her baby at either Starfall or The Tower of Joy. The child has blonde hair. They can’t name him Aegon though. The real one is still living. Meanwhile, Lyanna has a miscarriage and dies. An unwed getting pregnant is a scandal. Ned buries child and mother. He goes to Starfall and he and Lyanna do IT. Her first born is part Targaryen and she names him Aegon after the first dies. She gives birth to a second child, Jon Snow. Ned will soon be married. They part ways. Lemore is not a real Septa. It’s a made up identity to hide Ashara Dayne. 

I think Rhaegar already knowing he needed a child (As Tourney lasted 2 weeks and took place in last 2 months of 281, Aegon was already born. As early into 282 as the snows returned in Jan, Rhaegar was no where to be found. Meaning he had no time to go from Harrenhal, to Dragonstone, then back to Kingslanding, to be able to set out to Riverrun next.) wanted Ashara Dayne as a surrogate mother, as she is Dornish as such a thing is not a shame to them. Arianne has slept around and its no shame on her. Quentyn is proposed as a paramour for Dany. Lewyn Martell had one, etc.

  Rhaegar's original plan going into Harrenhal was to crown Ashara Dayne. Then the Mystery Knight happened, and he ended up crowning Lyanna instead. So naturally, Ashara "looked to Stark" as Lyanna was getting crowned and every one was looking at her. 

  The Winer Rose is rare, and only blooms in Winter and is known to grow in the Gardens of Winterfell, with Bael significance. With Harrenhal experiencing "Spring", these flowers would be no where near Rhaegar to get in that limited amount of time.

  The only person who could've gotten the flower was Mance Rayder. 

 Tormund father Alysanne on Maege Mormont before Harrenhal, likely to prove him self "Bael" worthy, and fit to be King beyond the Wall. Yet he was stopped, by Mance, who was still in the Nights Watch. Mance being born by a Nights Watchmen and a commoner as Craster was. Yet Mance was kept and Craster wasn't. Mance served Qorqyle who likely knew Bloodraven. 

  So how does Mance outdo Tormund? He goes further south, and steals the crown jewel, a Stark maid. Yet, Mance doesn't invade yet, and has stopped Tormund? But why? Because Mance is clever as Tormund says. The Bael legend is about how the Starks and Wildlings are blood tied. Mance needs a Stark with a blood tie to care about the Wildlings, and to fulfill the true Bael legend. He needs to time his invasion when his son is old enough. Especially since things with Rhaegar fell through. 

  The Red Silk Mance has is from Rheagar, as Mance was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As Meera retells her fathers story, the Knight is described with pronouns as being male. With a booming voice. She also tells us of a Blackbrother at Harrenhal. Something seemingly irrelevant to her story. Rhaegar and Mance made a deal that was broken either by Mance tricking Rhaegar, or Rhaegar simply dying.

 See, the Pirates in the Step stones by Dorne have been hitting beyond the Wall for slaves. Something Mance would not like. Even with out whitewalkers. So Mance has reason to protect his people and so does Tormund.

 So this explains what Rhaegars original plan was, how Ashara was dishonored, why she was, who the Knight really was, and how he got the roses. Where Mance got his red silk from, and explains through Tormund. That this is ritual to become King beyond the wall. 

 Now, Ashara Dayne is who I believe Rhaegar ran off to Dorne with, with his 6 closest companions. Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell, Oswell Whent, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, and Jon Connington. With Ashara either giving birth at the Tower of Joy, or a Tower at Starfall. 

 Eddard builds 6 cairns, but cairns aren't always graves. They're more often or not just place markers. He went south with 6 horses that could carry out any bodies, as he carries out Lyanna's supposedly. If Ashara was actually their, then it makes more sense. With Lyanna actually being in the North, in the crypts of Winterfell. A place Mance/Abel/Bael wants to get into, and where Jon has dreams of entering. So Lyanna was never carried north, so comparing her to the other 6 isn't possible. What ever happened to them we cannot say, maybe some became the loyal people who helped Willum Darry rescue Daenerys. Who has memories of Lemon trees. With House Dalt of Lemonwood attending Oberyn to Kings Landing, and Martells connected to Daynes who are loyal to House Martell with Nymeria having a son with Davos Dayne. Weirwoods don't grow in Dorne and there are temple to the Red Priest in Dorne and Old Town.

 Dayne Heiress is a homophone for Daenerys and a clear nod. Plus Quiathe comes to Dany in book 5 via glass candles likely, with Marwyn having access to a working glass candle that has come alive after the dragons were born. Marwyn is tied to Oberyn through Alleras/Sarella Sand. Oberyn is tied to Elia, Lewyn Martell, Arthur Dayne, and Ashara Dayne who he danced with at Harrenhal.

 Howland Reed, whose story Meera is telling. Tells of going to the Gods Eye and praying. This means praying to Bloodraven. After spending time on the Gods Eye, Howland runs into 3 squires who bully him, leading him to meet Lyanna Stark and the rest of the Starks. He comes with them to the feast where he stares at Ashara causing Eddard to possibly notice her. Either way, Howland's story points out Ashara Dayne, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, and either Arthur Dayne or Lewn Martell of the K.G. All tied to Dorne and Rheagar. (With the odd mention of the Black brother and a tourney of Singers.). Later the Mystery Knight comes and defeats knights from House Haigh, Blount, and Frey.

 Now this is likely Harrys Haigh, Boros Blount, and Raymund Frey. Raymund being a Crakehall Frey with ties to the Westerlands. Raymund kills Cat at the Red Wedding. (Could this be because Ned married her, instead of a Frey? With all Robb had to do to cross the twins, one must wonder what Eddard had to do). The 3 squires who are around 15 are likely the Blackwood/ Freys Lothar, Jannos, and Whalen. Whalen kills Grey wolf and Lothar orchestrated the Red Wedding. 

 What would house Blackwood have against House Stark???? Well, House Blackwood used to rule to Wolfswood before House Stark kicked them out of the North after defeating them. Likely being the Warg King of Sea Dragon Point.

 So Bloodraven has possibly been orchestrating the fall of House Stark. Who defeated the Reeds, the Boltons, and the Dustins. All who are part of Bloodraven's plot. With Meera and Jojen leading Bran to him, yet being confused when Bran asks him if he is the 3 eyed crow. As Bran has crow dreams, tree dreams, and wolf dreams. With tree dreams scaring him the most, are most likely actually Bloodraven. While the Crow is someone else. The Freys help lie about Boltons burning Winterfell, blaming Theon GreyJoy and getting Robb to focus on the North instead of Tywin. What's more, Bloodraven served as L.C. for 13 years, a clear nod to the Night's King. Mance is of the North, and so is Jon. Where as Dany is of Dorne, and Daynes. 

The Brave companions are connected to Oberyn and do attack the Brother Hood Without Banners, with both having members with Dornish ties. Thing is, the Brave Companion only kill Beric Dondarion who sits in a weirwood throne and has one eye, like Bloodraven. And like Bloodraven, is undead. So they may have only been trying to rid the Brother hood of Beric and no more. 

There was a Stark marriage to a Blackwood made by the Targaryen's, but this could have been bad for the Starks with the Blackwoods trying to reclaim the North. I can see it creating dynastic struggles. 

 Arya and the Faceless men are likely Bloodraven people, along with the House of the Undying. All will try to stop Daenerys. 

 

There are Houses that connect Dorne to the North such as Houses Holt, Lake, and Wells. These are first men houses though and Martells are Andals, and Rhoynar much later. Daynes are first men but wed into Nymeria. They also don't look like first men, having blonde hair and purple eyes in some members. Blackwoods are a first men house who ruled the Wolfwood. 

While House Stark is connected to House Gardener, and so is House Lannister. The Reach is the only place where there are no connected houses to other lands. Like the Shells of the Vale and Dorne, or the Brownhills of Dorne and the Stormlands. Footes of the Westerlands and the Stormlands, or the Boggs of the Crownlands and the North. Or the Towers of the North and the Riverlands. With Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder being invaders into the Westerlands and the North.

 

The Freys and Blackwoods were working with the Lannisters though, weren't they? Yes, but, the Frey's who did the Red Wedding are getting shafted. Its Emmon Frey through Walders Arryn first wife who gets Riverrun. Not a Crakehall, or Blackwood Frey.

What's more, Boltons take Ryswell, and Winterfell castles and give nothing to the Freys.

And not all Frey's are aligned with each other as Merret Frey tells us. So expect some Freys to turn on the Lannisters and the Boltons in the end.

This is so far as I can see it though. Jon is possibly Dead now, Bran is possibly dead after drinking the Weirwood paste (either way he's committed every warging sin.), and Arya going through the same training is told to kill her old self.

Things are not as we have been made to believe, but if you trace the crumbs. They add up to a lot more than Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up do.

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On 12/23/2021 at 4:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I am proposing my theory that Lady Ashara Dayne had gotten herself pregnant. ... Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man....

Ashara has her baby at either Starfall or The Tower of Joy.... 

I am confused with your proposed timeline here. Are you suggesting she was already pregnant before the tourney, as the explanation for her desperately needing a man? How could she then deliver at the toj?

My understanding is that the timeline allows for two distinct pregnancy windows. Conception at Harrenhal for birth shortly before the war, and conception early in the war for delivery around the storming of KL / Ned's visit to the toj (with Dany's birth in a third window of conception at the end of the war).

 

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

And we have the matter of dishonor coming from Barristan Selmy who I'm sure wins essay contests on what he believes is honor.  There is no mention of dishonor from Meera or Jojen.   One of the excellent older posters suggested the Stark Ashara looked to was Lyanna.   I think that is sweet considering Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned.  Perhaps Ashara asked Lyanna to ask Howland (or someone else) to dance with her.  

Damned right on Selmy and his concept of honour.

The interesting thing about Barristan is he is a source that was observing Ashara from a distance but was not part of her inner circle. So any person he links to Ashara we can trust was actually involved somehow in events aroind her, but not necessarily in the way he concluded. We have to break down the picture he created to work out which jigsaw pieces he was working with to assemble them some other way.

I do think Barristans believes that when Ashara 'looked to Stark' she was 'dishonoring' herself by sleeping with one of the brothers, but I doubt he personally witnessed inappropriate behaviour which would have been taking place in private. I think he instead witnessed something when they were all together at Dragonstone that led him to count backwards 9 months and conclude that Ashara's public dancing with Stark at Harrenhal went further in the dark of the night.

Selmy believes Ashara had a stillborn daughter, so the simplest explanation is that he witnessed her giving birth to that daughter, but again he was not inner circle and might not have had access to the full picture (and as a man would have been very unlikely to be permitted into the birthing chamber so we can almost rule him out as a direct witness). Ashara was a lady-in-waiting and her role was to protect her Lady, so an alternative explanation is Ashara claimed the stillborn was hers to cover for Elia, and that Ashara never was pregnant.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/23/2021 at 7:46 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I am proposing my theory that Lady Ashara Dayne had gotten herself pregnant.  The Queen dismissed her from service because an unmarried woman with a child was a scandal. Hypocrisy it was but that was how the nobility rolled.  Ashara’s behavior at the tourney was that of a woman who desperately needed a man.  I am further suggesting that she didn’t know who the father was at the time. She was sleeping with more than one man.  Aerys, or Rhaegar, or both was in the rotation. Perhaps Oberyn was as well. Aerys, unsure of the child’s paternity, was not going to claim. Aerys had a madness attack at the tourney and called out Ashara. Publicly shamed, she turned to a naive but compassionate Eddard Stark. They fall in love. The kind Shy Wolf agrees to marry Ashara and take her and her bastard after his fostership ends. The rebellion happens and the best laid plans go awry.

Ashara has her baby at either Starfall or The Tower of Joy. The child has blonde hair. They can’t name him Aegon though. The real one is still living. Meanwhile, Lyanna has a miscarriage and dies. An unwed getting pregnant is a scandal. Ned buries child and mother. He goes to Starfall and he and Lyanna do IT. Her first born is part Targaryen and she names him Aegon after the first dies. She gives birth to a second child, Jon Snow. Ned will soon be married. They part ways. Lemore is not a real Septa. It’s a made up identity to hide Ashara Dayne. 

Ashara might've been looking for a husband, it is quite normal, or rather, very much expected with Westeros' nobles , especially considering her age, but I doubt she was pregnant at the time. From all the information we have, I'd say she slept with Ned(the Stark one), perhaps out of love, perhaps because of how drunk they were or simply because she felt like this was a good oppurtunity (it'd be expected that "despoiling" a highborn lady as her would almost certainly mean marriage).

We also have a candidate for Ashara's child, Allyria... why does her name remind me of Lyarra, her would be grandmother, if Eddard was her father? Ned(the Dayne one), whose nick is the same as Eddard's and name very much makes me think of EDdard and RICkard. Ned seem to be remembered rather fondly in Starfall, despite Arthur Dayne's death(if he is killed, of course). He even tells us this:

Quote

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Why even fabricate and tell such a story to the family? 

My take, they indeed fell in love and planned to wed, but when the war broke out and Eddard took Brandon's place out of duty and neccessity, it was no longer possible and Ashara, perhaps also due to postpartum depression, threw herself out of the window.

 

Allyria's age: Allyria is older than Ned and Beric took Ned as a page when he was seven. According to the appendix, Ned is twelve at the time of ASOS. I can't find the quote but iirc, Beric was to marry Allyria after the tourney, so she must have flowered by then. Septa Mordane says most highborn ladies flower when they are 12-13 but it can be 14 as well, Alys, who is almost of an age with Jon, was going to marry Daryn Hornwood once she flowered but he died. So Allyria is probably slightly older than Jon, was freshly flowered just around the time of the Hand's tourney, perfect candidate for being Ashara's daughter.

Quote

"He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings."

"Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

"Before the war I was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. We were only waiting till I flowered to be wed, but the Kingslayer killed Daryn in the Whispering Wood. My father wrote that he would find some southron lord to wed me, but he never did.

 

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22 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

I am confused with your proposed timeline here. Are you suggesting she was already pregnant before the tourney, as the explanation for her desperately needing a man? How could she then deliver at the toj?

My understanding is that the timeline allows for two distinct pregnancy windows. Conception at Harrenhal for birth shortly before the war, and conception early in the war for delivery around the storming of KL / Ned's visit to the toj (with Dany's birth in a third window of conception at the end of the war).

 

Damned right on Selmy and his concept of honour.

The interesting thing about Barristan is he is a source that was observing Ashara from a distance but was not part of her inner circle. So any person he links to Ashara we can trust was actually involved somehow in events aroind her, but not necessarily in the way he concluded. We have to break down the picture he created to work out which jigsaw pieces he was working with to assemble them some other way.

I do think Barristans believes that when Ashara 'looked to Stark' she was 'dishonoring' herself by sleeping with one of the brothers, but I doubt he personally witnessed inappropriate behaviour which would have been taking place in private. I think he instead witnessed something when they were all together at Dragonstone that led him to count backwards 9 months and conclude that Ashara's public dancing with Stark at Harrenhal went further in the dark of the night.

Selmy believes Ashara had a stillborn daughter, so the simplest explanation is that he witnessed her giving birth to that daughter, but again he was not inner circle and might not have had access to the full picture (and as a man would have been very unlikely to be permitted into the birthing chamber so we can almost rule him out as a direct witness). Ashara was a lady-in-waiting and her role was to protect her Lady, so an alternative explanation is Ashara claimed the stillborn was hers to cover for Elia, and that Ashara never was pregnant.

Interesting . But with Aerys' paranoia , Elia may be trying to protect Ashara ,a Tagaryen stillborn could lead to rumors of poisoning , then heads on pikes .

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Interesting . But with Aerys' paranoia , Elia may be trying to protect Ashara ,a Tagaryen stillborn could lead to rumors of poisoning , then heads on pikes.

I don't see Elia needing to protect Ashara from Aerys  - Elia herself would likely be a target for his wrath before Ashara.

 

The protection that Ashara might have needed would have been from it becoming known that she had a child out of wedlock, if she has in fact been pregnant. I suggested that maybe it was Elia that gave birth to the stillborn girl that Selmy thinks was Ashara's, but my full theory is that they swapped children. So the wider world never learnt Ashara was pregnant, but she in fact have birth to a healthy purple-eyed, silver haired boy (traits inherited from his Dayne blood). And Elia, despite the stillbirth, was able to present the world and her husband with a boy that looked Targaryen.

 

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On 12/24/2021 at 4:46 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon is at least half Stark. His physical features of a very long face mark him for a Stark. His short temper also points to him being a Stark.  Surely some of Ashara's beauty would have made it past the Stark gene down to Jon.  But he and Arya have the Starkest look among the children.  I am going to support Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow for now.  We will know more in WoW. 

Does that make Arya with her Stark look the daughter of Lyanna?

 

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On 12/26/2021 at 7:47 PM, Julia H. said:

Does that make Arya with her Stark look the daughter of Lyanna?

 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow

Ned Stark + Catelyn Tully = Arya Stark

Brandon, Ned, and Lyanna were siblings.  The horseface just manifested itself on Arya from Ned, obviously.  Cat Tully's genes were not enough to water down the horseface gene on Arya.  It is more symbolism because Jon and Arya are the most alike. 

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4 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Because he could.  He had all the opportunity to do so.  A family branch of the Starks, Craster, does the same thing. 

He had the opportunity to bed Catelyn, Lysa, the stable boy's sister, would he say he had them too? 

As for Craster, there's no proof that he's a Stark bastard and he beds his daughters, not his sisters. 

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2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Because he could.  He had all the opportunity to do so.  A family branch of the Starks, Craster, does the same thing. 

Craster is some ranger's bastard. He has none of the Stark features and we don't know of any Stark in the NW around the time of his birth.

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23 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow

Ned Stark + Catelyn Tully = Arya Stark

Brandon, Ned, and Lyanna were siblings.  The horseface just manifested itself on Arya from Ned, obviously.  Cat Tully's genes were not enough to water down the horseface gene on Arya.  It is more symbolism because Jon and Arya are the most alike. 

In your earlier post, you seem to have based the Lyanna - Brandon thing on Jon's 100% Stark looks. Jon Snow is too old to be Brandon's however, and Arya is proof that just because you look like one set of your ancestors, you are not necessarily born of incest. Not every family even in this world practises incest. And if you want to examine special ASOIAF genetics, you may notice that the first-born children of various women fathered by Targaryen men tend to take after their mothers in looks.

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