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Career Chat V: the Common Ruin of the Contending Classes


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5 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Because it’s fun while you’re doing it, and it feels like a loss to step away.  You don’t stop until you feel burnt out. Any earlier is too early.

Eh, being on the other side I can understand it's fun while you're doing it, but when you step away you'll ask yourself WTF were you thinking.

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7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Dude, I've spent prolonged periods working >12 hours per day with no days off. And for shit pay, so please...

 

Why would you want to completely burn yourself out? That sounds miserable. Shouldn't you try to make the next 15-20 years rather enjoyable while maximizing your earnings within that space?

Teachers would like to have a word about shit pay, and healthcare workers would like one about burnout.

There is something valid to say about burnout and balance, but that is at an individuals discretion. If you love the game you are playing, or are in it for a different reason (i.e., the mission of the organization or field), there’s a sense of identity and/or enjoyment that override a lot of discomfort, and tend to make you engaged and better at what you do.   Which also tends to maximize your earnings…

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So I have this, let’s say project team, because agile terminology makes my skin crawl. It’s a complete disaster in terms of both productivity and cooperation. I’m sort of at my wit’s end about what else I could do to harness the mess without stepping on other people’s toes and forcing my ideas, rules and way of working on others. It’s a general problem that there are 6 overly nice women on this team, we are in desperate need of some ExTJ brains and direct, blunt communicators. Whenever my task orientation button switches on, I can and will dominate the scene to kick them through a meeting and show some results, but it does make me feel like I’m the unkind, pushy bad guy who doesn’t consider the others and oversteps her own role. I keep discussing this with the others and my manager, and I still can’t decide if I should keep pushing or recognize that pouring effort into something without result is a waste of resources and just let go. Most unsuccessful and unpleasant project of my working life. 

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On 7/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, RhaenysBee said:

So I have this, let’s say project team, because agile terminology makes my skin crawl. It’s a complete disaster in terms of both productivity and cooperation. I’m sort of at my wit’s end about what else I could do to harness the mess without stepping on other people’s toes and forcing my ideas, rules and way of working on others. It’s a general problem that there are 6 overly nice women on this team, we are in desperate need of some ExTJ brains and direct, blunt communicators. Whenever my task orientation button switches on, I can and will dominate the scene to kick them through a meeting and show some results, but it does make me feel like I’m the unkind, pushy bad guy who doesn’t consider the others and oversteps her own role. I keep discussing this with the others and my manager, and I still can’t decide if I should keep pushing or recognize that pouring effort into something without result is a waste of resources and just let go. Most unsuccessful and unpleasant project of my working life. 

As someone who tests very strongly as ENTJ for operating and ENTP for ideating (I hate that word, and I blame McKinsey for it even if they didn’t create it), that situation sounds deeply unpleasant and frustrating even if it wasn’t unproductive too.

There is a middle ground between tolerating badness and totalitarian rule.  Convene a group meeting with an explicit agenda that you perceive the group operating dynamic to be sub-par and include examples.  Then ask the group do they agree* there is need/room to improve and ask for their suggestions how.  Don’t presume to impose your own unless you are nominated to lead, but do force the discussion and sneakily assign people ownership of certain ideas to improve.  Negative externalities need owners, any owner, or else they will continue to fester unresolved.

Ask them to agree a shared constitution for the group.  Nothing elaborate but include simple professionalism like committing to deliverable deadlines, specifying group goals & priorities in writing to remove ambiguity or subjectivity, how to reach group decisions quickly, and accountability tracking & enforcement.

*If they disagree there is a problem even after you give examples and put them on the spot to opine, then the problem is not excessive niceness.  They may have lower professional standards or they may be passive-aggressively sabotaging each other.  Remove yourself from the project.

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18 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

As someone who tests very strongly as ENTJ for operating and ENTP for ideating (I hate that word, and I blame McKinsey for it even if they didn’t create it), that situation sounds deeply unpleasant and frustrating even if it wasn’t unproductive too.

There is a middle ground between tolerating badness and totalitarian rule.  Convene a group meeting with an explicit agenda that you perceive the group operating dynamic to be sub-par and include examples.  Then ask the group do they agree* there is need/room to improve and ask for their suggestions how.  Don’t presume to impose your own unless you are nominated to lead, but do force the discussion and sneakily assign people ownership of certain ideas to improve.  Negative externalities need owners, any owner, or else they will continue to fester unresolved.

Ask them to agree a shared constitution for the group.  Nothing elaborate but include simple professionalism like committing to deliverable deadlines, specifying group goals & priorities in writing to remove ambiguity or subjectivity, how to reach group decisions quickly, and accountability tracking & enforcement.

*If they disagree there is a problem even after you give examples and put them on the spot to opine, then the problem is not excessive niceness.  They may have lower professional standards or they may be passive-aggressively sabotaging each other.  Remove yourself from the project.

Yeah, we did this twice or three times already and keep slipping back into the same patterns. Just an example, we agreed that we would always write memos to keep agreements, tasks&owners in written form, bring absentees up to speed and we would rotate the role because writing memos is tedious. I wrote 3-4 memos and when I was absent or said I couldn’t take notes  today, nobody else did. They recorded the meeting, so I could listen to 2 hours of unstructured rambling and still have no idea what happened or what would be next. Then they even forgot to push the record button. And I entirely gave up note taking last week when we had a good half hour with decisions and a plan, and the next day the PO said she wanted to do the exact opposite and three more things after wasting a full hour on having four people read through a pdf in real time. I’ll stop ranting, I could fill books with all the shit that’s not working. 

That said, we never assigned ownership to the things we wanted to improve, that’s certainly a takeaway. And yes, you’re correct, there’s a fair measure of passive aggression as well, because everybody is frustrated to hell and back. As for tracking accountability and enforcing even the gentlest, most modest agreement, it would be the holy grail, and I think it’s not unreasonable that we would expect the PO to do this, but we are all drowning in this fake-feel-good, fake-consensus, laissez-faire sub-culture. It drives me nuts even though I’m both “I” and “F”,  if I want to keep abusing MBTI labels. 

anyway, thanks for your response, it was both helpful and supportive. 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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16 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Yeah, we did this twice or three times already and keep slipping back into the same patterns. Just an example, we agreed that we would always write memos to keep agreements, tasks&owners in written form, bring absentees up to speed and we would rotate the role because writing memos is tedious. I wrote 3-4 memos and when I was absent or said I couldn’t take notes  today, nobody else did. They recorded the meeting, so I could listen to 2 hours of unstructured rambling and still have no idea what happened or what would be next. Then they even forgot to push the record button. And I entirely gave up note taking last week when we had a good half hour with decisions and a plan, and the next day the PO said she wanted to do the exact opposite and three more things after wasting a full hour on having four people read through a pdf in real time. I’ll stop ranting, I could fill books with all the shit that’s not working. 

That said, we never assigned ownership to the things we wanted to improve, that’s certainly a takeaway. And yes, you’re correct, there’s a fair measure of passive aggression as well, because everybody is frustrated to hell and back. As for tracking accountability and enforcing even the gentlest, most modest agreement would be the holy grail, and I think it’s not reasonable that we would expect the PO to do this, but we are all drowning in this fake-feel-good, fake-consensus, laissez-faire sub-culture. It drives me nuts even though I’m both “I” and “F”,  if I want to keep abusing MBTI labels. 

anyway, thanks for your response, it was both helpful and supportive. 

That’s even worse than your original description.  I don’t understand how some people can be as unprofessional as that.  Is that pervasive in the organization?  It sounds like the project members either don’t care about the project and no-one has authority for accountability*, or else they’re clueless about what professionalism should look like.  Possibly both.

In your shoes, I would either try to fix it or walk away.  If walking away, then be explicit that it’s because of dysfunction making it an unproductive time sink.  If fixing it, then you need to locate an executive sponsor who actually cares that the project succeed and make them responsible for introducing accountability consequences.  Carrots and sticks.

*But it sounds now like there is a PO (project owner?) who holds responsibility for this, rather than a leaderless, directionless collective.  So that person presumably has accountability for project success and the functioning of the group, but they’re just not doing it well (or you just disagree with their approach and methods).  If so, you have the same choice to walk away or fix it, but fixing it requires wresting control and taking the PO role yourself because you actually care about the project success.  Is that something the executive sponsor will support?  How confident are you that you can make the group engage with greater discipline?  Will they passive-aggressively resist?

In the long run, most people solve this problem by gravitating toward teams, managers or new employers that match their desired level of professionalism and shared commitment.  There’s a huge informal sorting mechanism by self-selection going on across the entire labor market that leaves capable people who give a fuck trying to work with other while avoiding all of the time wasters.  Some of the capable people stay with the incompetents because it feels good to be needed and cherished but most get tired of babysitting.

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On 7/4/2022 at 2:45 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

That’s even worse than your original description.  I don’t understand how some people can be as unprofessional as that.  Is that pervasive in the organization?  It sounds like the project members either don’t care about the project and no-one has authority for accountability*, or else they’re clueless about what professionalism should look like.  Possibly both.

No, I wouldn’t say so at all. I work in three other groups that are quite okay with no or few and minor dysfunctionalities. They must (have at some point), as we all voluntarily applied to be in this project. That said, this is the third/fourth/fifth extra thing we do beside our “main jobs”, and it certainly doesn’t get the priority it needs or deserves.

There certainly is nobody with  authority, because the PO never claimed it, and nobody poached it either. And no, I don’t agree with her approach or methods and it’s a general unsaid understanding that she’s not great at it. That’s perfectly understandable for a whole baggage of reasons and context, but the point is, nobody will put it on the table, not even the project sponsors because it’s unsupportive. And nobody, including me, would ever usurp the PO role and look in the mirror the next day for the same reason (the group wouldn’t tolerate it either).

I would consider myself stronger at the project management side of things than she is, though this group is quite a challenge, I’ve experienced that every time I ended up taking charge at a meeting. The last effort I can and will do to fix it is volunteer as a default facilitator. If they agree to give that responsibility to me, I can take over all meetings and introduce some structure and see if that takes us anywhere at all. It should at least take some pressure off her, which may give her room to breathe and build on her strengths. That said, the role of vigorous meeting facilitator doesn’t come naturally to me either, I can do it, but it’s quite draining for me. So you know, where’s the cost benefit balance? 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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  • 3 weeks later...

Huh. I had assumed I didn't get the job--after stating they were looking to "move fast" and generally hearing every couple days about interviews, next steps, scheduling, etc, they basically ghosted me since the end of June. Even when I nudged the recruiter I was told I'd be hearing in a week, and then heard nothing for 2 weeks. But to my surprise, she reached out last week and they are in fact still interested! Had interviews last Friday and today, supposedly the final interview. Supposedly should hear this week...things seemed very good (one of the managers straight up told me she wanted me to be hired), but of course I can't know for sure. Playing the waiting game now...

Funny, when things were going well before I started feeling like maybe I didn't want the job. Then when I thought I didn't get it, I was like noooo, I wanted that! And now again that it's a possibility I'm all anxious and questioning everything. Anxiety really do be doing the most.

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Manager says he wants to talk about how I am. Ah the smell of fear and manipulation… 

So what am I even supposed to say? That I’m casually looking for an international work from home job which pays me in euros, because at this rate my current salary won’t allow me to afford groceries in three months? Everybody is… [at varying degrees of casually looking for a job which allows them to afford luxuries like food, gas an electricity]. I do feel some level of sorry for him, it must be a shit feeling that even the shit team you have is falling apart. At the same time, we are all out for ourselves and this is not the time when anybody is willing to take one for the team.

or you know maybe he will fire me :lol: 

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I am in a strange situation at work. Generally everything is going well, I enjoy the job, enjoy my team, feel I get paid fairly, etc. However, recently there's been a situation that really just seems like a complete lack of awareness from one of the senior operations team (not directly above me but higher in the business structure I guess). She has mentioned, repeatedly, a trip she is taking to New York to pitch our services to our office there. There was a little jealousy at first of course but kind of just accepted it and moved in. But as the trip has got closer its felt more and more annoying. She is going to pitch our services without actually knowing what it my team does and how we work. Over the past week and a half I've been asked to prepare case studies, a presentation, and coach her on what it is we are able to offer. And yesterday she asked me to dial in remotely to assist with the presentation in case anyone had questions. Bearing in mind the time differences, this means I will need to stop late on the day of the presentation.

I (and others on my team) are now feeling incredibly frustrated and resentful that this person has been sent on this trip that we have done all of the work for. Not only would we have liked to go, but we'd have been more suitable. If anyone asks her a question after the presentation she won't have a clue how to respond. It feels like this doesn't even make sense from a business perspective.

Am I being u reasonable to feel so resentful? Would it be reasonable to discuss how I'm feeling about this with my manager (who also had to assist this person in prepping for the trip)? I feel petty for thinking like this but there it is

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Never trust the upper echelons!

It is the worst kept secret at my company that department heads get a yearly bonus for staying under budget.

Thus giving them an incentive to cut costs for the short term, even if it hurts the bottom line of the company in the long term. 

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Am I being u reasonable to feel so resentful? Would it be reasonable to discuss how I'm feeling about this with my manager (who also had to assist this person in prepping for the trip)? I feel petty for thinking like this but there it is

Here is my $0.02 and remember, they don’t mean shit. 

 While I understand your feelings of resentment and don’t think they unreasonable, letting these kinds of feelings get the better of you just makes it worse.

 If the situation won’t change, it be best to recognize that and just make the best of it as you can.

Having to support this person may not be fun, perhaps that plan will change and you won’t have to.


In my experience talking with a manager has always been a waste of time, so getting satisfaction there might prove elusive. That would be your judgment call.

Best of luck.  May your co-worker lose her luggage and have a shitty time.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I (and others on my team) are now feeling incredibly frustrated and resentful that this person has been sent on this trip that we have done all of the work for. Not only would we have liked to go, but we'd have been more suitable. If anyone asks her a question after the presentation she won't have a clue how to respond. It feels like this doesn't even make sense from a business perspective.

Am I being u reasonable to feel so resentful? Would it be reasonable to discuss how I'm feeling about this with my manager (who also had to assist this person in prepping for the trip)? I feel petty for thinking like this but there it is

It doesn't sound like anything is likely to change for this trip if it's already all planned, but perhaps you can suggest that if a similar opportunity comes up in future then you would be interested in going and feel you could make a good contribution representing your team? I don't think it is petty to think it would have made more sense from a business perspective for you (or someone else from your team) to go

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Thank you all, appreciate the input and think quite honestly I just needed to get that out of my system somewhere. Everything you've all said sounds sensible and I'll likely just bring it up as a point in my next 1-2-1 that maybe our team should have these opportunities and would make more sense from a business perspective

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So after a decade in research I've hung up my lab coat and have moved into a support role. Basically managing a small team which looks after the common research facilities, ensures we're keeping up with compliance, equipment maintenance etc etc etc. Plus side of this is I'm now in a permanent role rather than bouncing from contract to contract. 

Anyway one of the first things I'm involved with is recruiting to fill a role in the team, and we have a couple candidates our selection panel just can't split and I seem to have the deciding vote. One of them is internal and I know them pretty well, the other is external. My gut is really to go with the devil I know, though I'm afraid I'm giving the external candidate short shrift.

If I'm being honest i thought the external candidate interviewed better. However I know the internal candidate could easily do the job, and importantly I believe they'll hang around for a few years to gain experience, whereas I'm not sure at all with the external. Decisions decisions.

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3 hours ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

Go with the internal candidate, if there is any hesitation.

Reason: you know them, and if you don’t go with internal, you might get a bad hire (external candidate) and lose internal candidate to be someone else’s external hire.

Remember, “in the game of jobs, one either wins, or one explores other options” (with all apologies to the boarder known as Aratan for mangling that quote).

See Madam Chataya de Fleury, you seem to be one of the good upper echelons.

 

Down with yearly percentage based raises! They are not raises, they are cost of living adjustments in disguise!

(Usually at a number below the actual cost of living increase(so in essence an annual pay cut))  

Edited by A True Kaniggit
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On 7/29/2022 at 6:49 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

I am in a strange situation at work. Generally everything is going well, I enjoy the job, enjoy my team, feel I get paid fairly, etc. However, recently there's been a situation that really just seems like a complete lack of awareness from one of the senior operations team (not directly above me but higher in the business structure I guess). She has mentioned, repeatedly, a trip she is taking to New York to pitch our services to our office there. There was a little jealousy at first of course but kind of just accepted it and moved in. But as the trip has got closer its felt more and more annoying. She is going to pitch our services without actually knowing what it my team does and how we work. Over the past week and a half I've been asked to prepare case studies, a presentation, and coach her on what it is we are able to offer. And yesterday she asked me to dial in remotely to assist with the presentation in case anyone had questions. Bearing in mind the time differences, this means I will need to stop late on the day of the presentation.

I (and others on my team) are now feeling incredibly frustrated and resentful that this person has been sent on this trip that we have done all of the work for. Not only would we have liked to go, but we'd have been more suitable. If anyone asks her a question after the presentation she won't have a clue how to respond. It feels like this doesn't even make sense from a business perspective.

Am I being u reasonable to feel so resentful? Would it be reasonable to discuss how I'm feeling about this with my manager (who also had to assist this person in prepping for the trip)? I feel petty for thinking like this but there it is

That would frustrate me too.  One of the things I really like about my firm is that any can (and regularly does) question any decision and call out bad logic.  No sacred cows are permitted.  It’s such a change from the usual expectation that everyone go along with bad decisions and rank favoritism.  It doesn’t mean bad decisions don’t happen but they get called out loudly enough to effect change and prevent the next one.

In your shoes, I would definitely ask my manager why she had been chosen to represent the team.  I’ve asked those sorts of questions many times.  They do often bring negative consequences though, but arguably also bring a benefit over the long term.

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I got the job offer! Will officially accept probably tomorrow, just pending word from my fiance's HR about whether he will be allowed to relocate. Pay offer was significantly above what I was expecting (like 30% more) so that's nice! I am very excited but also very stressed--selling my condo, moving, finding a place to live, starting a new job...it's a lot! Oh and we'll definitely have to buy a car, which is annoying. I've certainly enjoyed my carfree life these past 5 years. Luckily, with my fiance working from home and probably living close enough to be able to bike or shuttle to my office, I think we'll manage fine with just one for the two of us.

Cannot believe that I may be less than 3 weeks away from my start date!!

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