Political and domestic issues that the Stark kids will have to deal with, outside of the preparations for the Long Night

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Once the Boltons are finally defeated and gone, and that a new Stark is installed as the ruler of Winterfell and of the North, what are the political problems and issues, both internal and external to the North, that the Starks will have to deal with outside of having evidently to prepare the North for the coming of the Others ? 

What solutions the Stark kids may find and put in practice to resolve or at least try to resolve these problems and issues ?

What could be the solutions to solve these dilemnas such as :

- How to provide as much food as possible for the people of the North.

- How to put an end to the conflict with the Free Folk, and where to install them. How to integrate them into the North ?

- What rewards and lands for the houses and people that have been loyal to their family. 

- What to do with the Dreadfort and the Bolton land.

- The Hornwood lands issue.

- Free Torrhen Square and end the last occupations by Ironborn. 

- To do something with Theon and Asha Greyjoy. 

- To deal with Littlefinger.

- What to do about the Riverlands allies and northmen still trapped or wandering in the south. 

 

[Nathan Stark]

What a big question! It needs a big answer, so strap in.

Here are the list of issues facing the North, as I see it:

1) The divisions between the various Stark loyalists, like the Rickon supporters vs the Jon supporters vs the Sansa coalition. I think this is the least challenging problem. Jon might be Robb's named heir, but if Rickon or Bran pressed their claim, would he really fight them? I doubt it. The boys all have stronger claims than Sansa, so it is not hugely difficult to work out some solution. The Starks are also the most functional family unit in the story with much mutual love, so their close personal ties should forestall any major conflicts.

2) There is the issue with House Hornwoods land. The former lord of House Hornwood has a bastard son, who is a ward of sombody or other. I remember Bran bringing this up as a solution to the Hornwood succession crisis. That would remain the most effective solution. If Ramsay Snow can be legitimized, so can the Hornwood bastard. The Manderlys might not like losing an oppurtunity to gobble up some Hornwood lands, but can they really object to the Starks restoring House Hornwood? The snag would be if Rickon becomes Lord of Winterfell with Wyman's backing. The Manderlys might expect some Hornwood lands in exchange for backing Rickon. But restoring the Hornwoods shouldn't be too difficult otherwise.

3) Then there is the issue of rewarding loyal Stark supporters. The Northern Mountain Clans, Houses Umber, Manderly, Glover, Mormont and Tallhart and likely most others will all be expecting rewards for their loyalty, but they'll each have different prices. The Manderlys want Hornwood lands, for example, while the Mountain Clans, Flints and Umbers may want land in the old Gift returned to them. This is a thornier knot to untie than the first two issues. Whichever Stark candidate threads this issue the best will be made Lord of Winterfell, but regardless, some Houses might lose out.

4) Regarding the Ironborn, they are all but defeated, with only a few holdings left, particularly Torrhen Square. They shouldn't be especially hard to beat now that they've lost Moat Cailyn. Asha and Theon are trickier, as most Northmen probably want them dead. Yet they have excellent value as hostages, especially now they are in line of succession in House Greyjoy. It would be a mistake to execute either of them, but not doing so might be a risky move for whichever Stark becomes Lord of Winterfell. It might so too much weakness and mercy for some Northerners, especially those who were harderst hit by the Ironborn. So the Stark in charge will likely have a tight rope to walk here.

5) Some houses, like the Karstarks, Dustins and Rhyswells are of questionable loyalty. They need to be appeased in some way, or forced into submission. The first alternative of appeasing these houses is the more preferable, so the Starks need to offer up some incentives for their support. The Karstarks are the ones most likely to require some physical force to subdue, given recent history. Luckily, Lady Barbery is connected to both the Rhyswells and the Dustins, so the Starks would be dealing with her, instead of with multiple people.

6) The fate of House Bolton is very significant. If Roose and Ramsay Snow die heirless, Bolton lands need to go somewhere. This could make it easier to give rewards to more supporters, or it could end up being a situation similar to the Hornwood crisis. The Stark in charge will need to distribute Bolton holdings to their supporters equally and fairly, which gets harder to do with more houses involved.

7) At the moment, the Freefolk are supposed to settle in the New Gift. The North needs new blood, but the Freefolk are starving refugees at a time when when winter is coming and food is scarce. That, along with the small presence of raiders, will make the Freefolk's integration dicey. House Thenn and Alys Karstark can help matters by providing a template for Freefolk/Northern unity. But many lords are not going to like making common cause with wildlings. 

8) The most important issue will be feeding the North, native and newcomer alike, and providing shelter for the winter. The Stark in charge will need to rebuild Winterfell so that the winter town can be restored. The glas gardens need to be rebuilt, as they can provide warmth and food. Overall, the North is not prepared for this winter, but they are all used to northern winters, which makes them better prepared than the South. Still, there is going to be starvation and deprivation, no matter how competent Stark leadership is.

Ultimately, the Stark in charge needs to prepare the North for the Others arrival. They will need a sound and stable fighting coalition, and they will need to feed and shelter as many people as possible to prevent the Walker army from growing. I don't believe that Littlefinger will be an immediate challenge that needs attention. And the North has enough problems without trying to add in the Riverlanders. Maybe the Blackwoods can be allowed to return North, but they already have strained resources. 

All things being equal, Jon is the best candidate to be the next Stark in charge. He has military and political experience from his time at the Wall, and he has enough sway with the Freefolk to ease some of the issues they will cause. And he is older than the other Starks, and a male. And since he is probably Robb's named heir, he is likely better positioned to assume power. He does need to be legitimized, which Robb's Will presumably does, and he needs to made free from his vows to the Nights Watch, a matter Robb thought could be overcome. If Jon doesn't want the job, than the next best bet would be Sansa, who at least has some experience at court, which is better than the near zero experience Bran and Rickon have. But of the Stark family, Jon is going to be the best bet to lead the North.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

42 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

2) There is the issue with House Hornwoods land. The former lord of House Hornwood has a bastard son, who is a ward of sombody or other. I remember Bran bringing this up as a solution to the Hornwood succession crisis. That would remain the most effective solution. If Ramsay Snow can be legitimized, so can the Hornwood bastard. The Manderlys might not like losing an oppurtunity to gobble up some Hornwood lands, but can they really object to the Starks restoring House Hornwood? The snag would be if Rickon becomes Lord of Winterfell with Wyman's backing. The Manderlys might expect some Hornwood lands in exchange for backing Rickon. But restoring the Hornwoods shouldn't be too difficult otherwise.

One of the Tallhart kids would also be an option, as they are nephews of Lord Dustin. I don't know which would be preferable but a nephew would likely take precedence over a bastard, though WF might prefer the more politically enticing option.

42 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

5) Some houses, like the Karstarks, Dustins and Rhyswells are of questionable loyalty. They need to be appeased in some way, or forced into submission. The first alternative of appeasing these houses is the more preferable, so the Starks need to offer up some incentives for their support. The Karstarks are the ones most likely to require some physical force to subdue, given recent history. Luckily, Lady Barbery is connected to both the Rhyswells and the Dustins, so the Starks would be dealing with her, instead of with multiple people.

Alys already has Karhold well in hand, and most of Cregan's men swore to her. I don't think she'll have much trouble gathering the rest. TWOW has more here but I can't remember how to do the spoiler tag, so I will just leave it at that. If and when Roose and / or Ramsay are killed, the Starks just need to make overtures to Lady Dustin to keep her loyal. And, if her entire spiel about not liking Starks has any foreshadowing, Jon becoming the leader of the Stark family makes ironic sense as he's Snow (and / or Targ depending on how R+L=J turns out).

 

[Nevets]

A few random thoughts. 

Stannis - Forgot about him, didn't you?  He's not going to like that; he doesn't like being ignored.  He's going to be the one that defeats the Boltons and he's going to want his reward.  Most likely homage and/or troops.  The Manderlys, in particular,  are going to be in a sticky spot.  They are apparently helping the Boltons, and killed his envoy ("You sent him to get a kid who's dead?  Sure you did.")  In any event, he's going to be the elephant in the room, and will have to be dealt with somehow. 

Jon - Assuming he survives, Jon can take charge as he is.  As LC, he can essentially be the de facto leader of the North.  He is known and respected by the main players, and so long as he confines his activities to the North, can probably get away with it.  Depending on what it says and why, Robb's Will will be either obeyed or ignored, most likely the latter, especially if it removes Jon from the Watch.

Timing - A lot will depend on when the Others attack and when Daenerys arrives in Westeros.  If these happen relatively early, there won't be time to really do anything major.  In particular,  I expect the Others to attack sooner rather than later. 

Boltons/Hornwoods - It is possible that one or both Boltons could make a run for it and hole up in the Dreadfort, which could complicate matters.  Another potential complication is Jeyne Poole.  If she's pregnant with Ramsay's son, a distinct possibility, that could complicate matters as well, though it could also provide a solution of sorts as well.

Arya - I'm sure she will show up eventually and put her skills to use.  Of which, killing people is the least of them.  She'd be good at finding out what people are up to, especially what they might not want known. 

I know.  Lots of questions and not many answers.  But on this, there are too many moving parts to give good answers.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 12/24/2021 at 12:03 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Once the Boltons are finally defeated and gone, and that a new Stark is installed as the ruler of Winterfell and of the North, what are the political problems and issues, both internal and external to the North, that the Starks will have to deal with outside of having evidently to prepare the North for the coming of the Others ? 

What solutions the Stark kids may find and put in practice to resolve or at least try to resolve these problems and issues ?

What could be the solutions to solve these dilemnas such as :

- How to provide as much food as possible for the people of the North.

- How to put an end to the conflict with the Free Folk, and where to install them. How to integrate them into the North ?

- What rewards and lands for the houses and people that have been loyal to their family. 

- What to do with the Dreadfort and the Bolton land.

- The Hornwood lands issue.

- Free Torrhen Square and end the last occupations by Ironborn. 

- To do something with Theon and Asha Greyjoy. 

- To deal with Littlefinger.

- What to do about the Riverlands allies and northmen still trapped or wandering in the south. 

 

The Starks are not going to be in the position to make these decisions even if they defeat the Boltons.  The Starks are the losers of a rebellion which they started.  Winterfell and its lands were formally taken from them and given to the Boltons.  King's Landing will not agree to give the Starks their authority again.  The Stark name is tainted.  Ned, Jon, and Robb all are guilty of treason.  Robb and Jon are known for oathbreaking.  Sansa is an accomplice to Kingslaying.  We really do not want a nut job like Jon to make these decisions.  He is woefully inadequate to even manage the few men and free folk he had at the wall.  I pity the north if Jon is their lord.  He's a moron.  Bran could grow up capable but what kind of time are we going to have.  Bran will need at least ten years to mature and he isn't that smart at that.  He is their best hope though. Sansa is a disaster on two legs. 

 

[Curled Finger]

Reading through the replies it occurs to me again that there are red herrings in this story and misdirection.  I think Jon and Sansa both have shared trajectory of uniting and organizing people while we suspect Rickon has learned nothing but ferocity in Skaggos.   In that the Skaggosi have a hierarchy in place I would imagine they would be a culture fairly well suited to infusing the North with transplants.  One thing is certain, the North is about to experience an explosion of migrating 1st Men which serves the dual purpose of supplying the north with fighters as well as perhaps permanent population.   These clans will have methods of hunting and agriculture and perhaps magic practices/understanding the mainlanders may not have.    All this incoming may be a boon to the region.

I wouldn't expect any pleas from the South for anything until the North is domestically settled.   That is, the South learns there is a new ruler in Bolton stead.   We have the dregs of the Umbers left doing their part and the possible death of the richest ruler in the only city in the North.   We need to take a serious look at Wyllis Manderly along with all Wyman's conspirators to see if he supports his father's ideal of Northern independence and the restoration of House Stark and allegiance to Stannis.   There are a lot of moving parts where House Manderly is concerned in the overall politics and governance of the North.  How likely are Bolton supporters to hang on to their lands?   What impact does Walda Frey's presence have as well as the impact her baby may have?   Are Northmen willing to kill her and and innocent child?   Some of them would, but it isn't a Starkish sort of move in the least.  

I think a lot of the point of Dany having such a large force is to supplement the forces of Westeros while overcoming other native forces.   There is not a whole lot of fight left in the people remaining to Westeros as so many men of fighting age are dead.  The Lannisters are spread thin.   Will the Reach really join Aegon if the Dornish are already with him?  Euron seems to be targeting the Reach and that will not end well for the area.   Will the Vale even be able to leave their lofty place to go anywhere?  Are there enough people left in the Riverlands to unite and form any sort of force at all?  While the Iron Born are divided and conquering what could anyone expect of Stromlands or Crownlands forces?   Will Cersei simply wipe an entire city out?   Dany will need to head North eventually because regardless how many clans transplant there are simply not enough there to fight the Others.     

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 12/27/2021 at 4:58 PM, Curled Finger said:

Reading through the replies it occurs to me again that there are red herrings in this story and misdirection.  I think Jon and Sansa both have shared trajectory of uniting and organizing people while we suspect Rickon has learned nothing but ferocity in Skaggos.   In that the Skaggosi have a hierarchy in place I would imagine they would be a culture fairly well suited to infusing the North with transplants.  One thing is certain, the North is about to experience an explosion of migrating 1st Men which serves the dual purpose of supplying the north with fighters as well as perhaps permanent population.   These clans will have methods of hunting and agriculture and perhaps magic practices/understanding the mainlanders may not have.    All this incoming may be a boon to the region.

I wouldn't expect any pleas from the South for anything until the North is domestically settled.   That is, the South learns there is a new ruler in Bolton stead.   We have the dregs of the Umbers left doing their part and the possible death of the richest ruler in the only city in the North.   We need to take a serious look at Wyllis Manderly along with all Wyman's conspirators to see if he supports his father's ideal of Northern independence and the restoration of House Stark and allegiance to Stannis.   There are a lot of moving parts where House Manderly is concerned in the overall politics and governance of the North.  How likely are Bolton supporters to hang on to their lands?   What impact does Walda Frey's presence have as well as the impact her baby may have?   Are Northmen willing to kill her and and innocent child?   Some of them would, but it isn't a Starkish sort of move in the least.  

I think a lot of the point of Dany having such a large force is to supplement the forces of Westeros while overcoming other native forces.   There is not a whole lot of fight left in the people remaining to Westeros as so many men of fighting age are dead.  The Lannisters are spread thin.   Will the Reach really join Aegon if the Dornish are already with him?  Euron seems to be targeting the Reach and that will not end well for the area.   Will the Vale even be able to leave their lofty place to go anywhere?  Are there enough people left in the Riverlands to unite and form any sort of force at all?  While the Iron Born are divided and conquering what could anyone expect of Stromlands or Crownlands forces?   Will Cersei simply wipe an entire city out?   Dany will need to head North eventually because regardless how many clans transplant there are simply not enough there to fight the Others.     

I do think that the Skagosi aren't as savage and barbaric as most believe that they are, and that they will actually help tame Rickon to a degree and teach him some real values and life-lessons much like how Jon learned from the Free Folks. 

I think one of the magnars will have started to raise Rickon as one of his sons and that he or another Skagosi with warging abilities will have taught Rickon on how to fully master his powers and allow him to take control of all kind of beasts and not just Shaggydog. 

 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Speaking of skagosi I wonder if some of them, at least a few of their leaders will go to the North's maindland and serve possibly as protectors of Rickon and possibly later as part of the lords and advisors that the Starks will be able to rely on or have to reason with in order to prepare the North for the Others' invasion. 

It would be interesting to see their interactions with the Free Folks, but also with representatives of the Mountain Clans and with the Crannogmen who'll be represented by Meera, Howland Reed and possibly other crannogmen. 

Imagine the meeting and possible clashes between the Northern's "savage" minorities, that could lead to many funny and interesting moments.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Regardless of whether the Skagosi are savage or not, Rickon won't play a large part in the governance of the North. He's ~6 years old. He might bring some fighters from Skagos with some unique ability in the fight against the others, but there's not much else he can bring to the table.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:03 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Once the Boltons are finally defeated and gone, and that a new Stark is installed as the ruler of Winterfell and of the North, what are the political problems and issues, both internal and external to the North, that the Starks will have to deal with outside of having evidently to prepare the North for the coming of the Others ? 

What solutions the Stark kids may find and put in practice to resolve or at least try to resolve these problems and issues ?

What could be the solutions to solve these dilemnas such as :

- How to provide as much food as possible for the people of the North.

- How to put an end to the conflict with the Free Folk, and where to install them. How to integrate them into the North ?

- What rewards and lands for the houses and people that have been loyal to their family. 

- What to do with the Dreadfort and the Bolton land.

- The Hornwood lands issue.

- Free Torrhen Square and end the last occupations by Ironborn. 

- To do something with Theon and Asha Greyjoy. 

- To deal with Littlefinger.

- What to do about the Riverlands allies and northmen still trapped or wandering in the south. 

 

What if the Boltons are not all gone by the time that the Starks are reinstalled as Lords of Winterfell?

I think the likelihood of either Ramsay or Roose (not both) escaping and falling back on the Dreadfort to continue to menace the Starks and the other northmen is pretty high.

Having the North have to contend with Lord Bolton, the Others and maybe King Stannis makes for an interesting, more nuanced story in A Dream of Spring than if it was just the Others that they had to deal with.

 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

What if the Boltons are not all gone by the time that the Starks are reinstalled as Lords of Winterfell?

I think the likelihood of either Ramsay or Roose (not both) escaping and falling back on the Dreadfort to continue to menace the Starks and the other northmen is pretty high.

Having the North have to contend with Lord Bolton, the Others and maybe King Stannis makes for an interesting, more nuanced story in A Dream of Spring than if it was just the Others that they had to deal with.

 

I kind of doubt that. The Starks being restored, with the support of most of the other Northern houses makes things pretty much impossible for the Boltons. Don't forget, everybody in the North knows the Boltons participated in the Red Wedding; they just can't say it out loud yet, politically. Once the Boltons stop being in charge, the other houses will be fine with rooting the Boltons out. They could hold out for a while in the Dreadfort, but they'd be isolated and outnumbered, so I don't think they'll be an issue going into A Dream of Spring.

[BlackLightning]

6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I kind of doubt that. The Starks being restored, with the support of most of the other Northern houses makes things pretty much impossible for the Boltons. Don't forget, everybody in the North knows the Boltons participated in the Red Wedding; they just can't say it out loud yet, politically. Once the Boltons stop being in charge, the other houses will be fine with rooting the Boltons out. They could hold out for a while in the Dreadfort, but they'd be isolated and outnumbered, so I don't think they'll be an issue going into A Dream of Spring.

I would normally agree. But maybe the Boltons will be an issue going into A Dream of Spring if the Wall falls early and/or if Rickon is taken hostage by them?

Doesn't Davos still think Stannis is trying to take the Dreadfort? What if he goes there only to find that its Bolton HQ?

If the hostage route happens, then Roose Bolton is the one who lives.

[Nathan Stark]

42 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I would normally agree. But maybe the Boltons will be an issue going into A Dream of Spring if the Wall falls early and/or if Rickon is taken hostage by them?

Doesn't Davos still think Stannis is trying to take the Dreadfort? What if he goes there only to find that its Bolton HQ?

If the hostage route happens, then Roose Bolton is the one who lives.

Well, that entails some rather large "ifs" happening. And they'd all basically need to happen to keep the Boltons in the story. I don't see the Wall coming down until very late in Winds, possibly the beginning of Dream. And Davos will likely be our eyes and ears into what's happening at Hardhome. He's quite a ways from the Dreadfort. And Davos isn't stupid. I think he'd be fairly cautious about approaching the Dreadfort.

[chrisdaw]

Jon will have to consolidate the north and the external factions in the north. The will be brought forth and make him a viable leader, he will take the mantle of king in the north or acting king in the north so far as he understands Bran or Rickon to live. What belongs to Stannis will become his. He may marry Val to bring in the Wildlings but it probably won't be necessary. He will defeat the Boltons and those allied with them and bring them to heel through beheadings and marriages. He will deal with the Iron Bank to gain their support and archers and he will absorb the Iron Born. He will send for help from the crown but it will not come, so he will begin an exodus of the north in whatever direction he can and make three fighting forces to march on the south via three different routes.

He will take conquer, take heads and turn foes to allies as he moves south.

Sansa will be queen and Tyrion king on the Iron Throne, it will have taken great political skill to achieve this and exhaustive manoeuvrings but at the time of Jon's coming south their realm will be in disarray, and their attentions will be more devoted to personal affairs than the realm's. Jon will defeat Tyrion and Sansa will negotiate with Jon the pact of ice and fire, the peace that will consolidate the north back into the realm and make a new king and queen. Arya will be the new queen.

Arya will have convinced much of the Riverlands to turn from Tyrion's rule to Jon's through previous relations with key actors and knowledge of Sansa's/Tyrion's rule to contrast to Jon's. Arya's primary political play will be to decide if she will even become a politician. Her arc culminates in the question of if she will do as her lord orders and duty dictates and become a politician, marry a person she doesn't love and become queen, or become no-one again and run away to freedom.

Bran and Rickon aren't making political decisions.

[BlackLightning]

@chrisdaw why do you want Tyrion to become king? Or why do you see him becoming king?

Why would anyone in Westeros be okay with a kinslayer and a kingslayer (the fact he didn't do it doesn't matter -- as of right now, he confessed to doing it on at least two occasions) becoming king? Take all the vitriol that Jaime got and multiply it by three.

Also, the fact that he is a known lecherous dwarf who previously was a key supporter of a bad, illegitimate dynasty (which he betrayed no less) also hurts him.

Plus, he's a Lannister. Why would the northmen or the rivermen (or the Dornishmen for that matter) pledge fealty to a Lannister?

[chrisdaw]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

@chrisdaw why do you want Tyrion to become king?

I don't want Tyrion to become king, I think, I don't really think about what I want, this topic has nothing to do with that. Why do you think of the series in terms of what you want? Why would that be the first thing you think to ask?

I have a topic in my signature explaining the foreshadowing behind Tyrion becoming king and Sansa becoming queen. The circumstances of how that will come to be I suppose are part of this topic as they are Sansa's political actions. So this is generally how Tyrion will be redeemed and elevated in they eyes of Westeros (KL mainly).

- Dany will be queen, hated, and kicked out off the throne, and Tyrion will play some part in that. Tyrion will be a dragon rider and Sansa will position him as the natural defender of the realm should Dany return. Dany will be seen of foreign gods or R'hllor and Sansa will point to Tyrion having historically defeated Red God Stannis and saved the city.

- The Faith will be very powerful, the DWDs will very much be a religious war. Lancel is going to rise to become High Septon and particularly has good reason to believe in the judgement of Tyrion and good nature of Sansa.

- Cersei will push for Sansa to be trialed for her role in Joff's death and will succeed. Sansa will demand a trial by Seven which will culminate in the unmasking of Robert Strong, this will see Cersei fall, she will be known to be in league with the undead and Tyrion will be largely forgiven as his trial was against an undead combatant and Cersei was his accuser.

- Tyrion is a package deal with Sansa who will be loved by the people and particularly the Faith, she will stand in contrast to Cersei, Arianne and Dany as seemingly whole heartedly pure and of the Seven. There are seemingly never ending quotes I can point to from Tyrion/Sansa's POVs that are concerning the at the time current ruling situation in KL but double as commentary/set up for their own rule, and this is probably the most poignant of all.

Quote

He heard them cheering outside even before he reached the doors. The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again.

The mob will love Sansa so much she will bring them to accept Tyrion.

- Tyrion will reconcile with Jaime and Jaime will come as part of the package too. During her reign Dany will publicly trial Jaime for murdering Aerys and Jaime will explain his actions, the public will overwhelmingly support Jaime. The Lannister brothers will be sold as having saved the city from first Mad King Aerys and then Mad King Dany.

- The city will be starving and Sansa/Tyrion will feed it with food from the Vale, making sure it's known it was their doing.

- Sansa's cousin will rule the Vale, her uncle will be reinstated to RR and when Cersei falls all the Lannister leadership is in Tyrion or Jaime. The Bolton's may swear allegiance before they're through but the IT isn't going to rule the north in any true capacity. The rest may or may not fall in line, Tyrion's and Sansa's rule is going to be a tumultuous.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

There is also the eternal question of who to bethrothe the Stark kids with, one question that will surely be asked and reminded many times by the northern lords as well as Littlefinger and the Vale allies, since I don't think that Littlefinger's plan to marry Sansa to Harold Hardyng will work out and that many northern lords will hope to marry Sansa to their son or to themselves. 

Same for Arya once she comes back home.

No doubt that they will also want to marry their daughters, granddaughters or nieces to Bran and/or Rickon, and that Wyman Manderly in particular may hope to marry his beloved Wylla or Wynafrid to Rickon and/or to Bran when he comes back to Winterfell as reward for his efforts to depose the Boltons and restore house Stark to power, as well for the northern fleet that he has built and hidden.

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There is also the eternal question of who to bethrothe the Stark kids with, one question that will surely be asked and reminded many times by the northern lords as well as Littlefinger and the Vale allies, since I don't think that Littlefinger's plan to marry Sansa to Harold Hardyng will work out and that many northern lords will hope to marry Sansa to their son or to themselves. 

Sansa probably marries for a political alliance. If she becomes lady of WF, her husband might be a second son of one of the northern lords who takes up the Stark name. If Jon, Bran or Rickon becomes the lord, Sansa could marry a southern lord in hopes of maintaining peace.

[BlackLightning]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

I don't want Tyrion to become king, I think, I don't really think about what I want, this topic has nothing to do with that. Why do you think of the series in terms of what you want? Why would that be the first thing you think to ask?

 

I ask because it's a plot point that you keep pushing that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Who is going to sit by and allow Tyrion to ascend to the Iron Throne

And even if he did become king in the end, he would not be a good one. Think Robert Baratheon mixed with Bloodraven and Maegor.

I think you are really underestimating how people feel about kinslayers. No one is more accursed than a kinslayer and it appears to be a universal taboo.

You also forget that what makes it worse is that Tyrion jokes about it openly...

Kinslaying is dry work. It gives a man a thirst.

That's from a conversation with Illyrio in his first chapter in A Dance with Dragons

Bro, you just killed your father in cold blood and you're joking about being an alcoholic dreg...while spending the last couple days/weeks, mulling and whinging about someone else's home ungratefully.

And you don't even know this guy.

It's not funny.

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

I have a topic in my signature explaining the foreshadowing behind Tyrion becoming king and Sansa becoming queen. The circumstances of how that will come to be I suppose are part of this topic as they are Sansa's political actions. So this is generally how Tyrion will be redeemed and elevated in they eyes of Westeros (KL mainly).

If anything, your story explains why Sansa would be queen. But why would Sansa do all the heavy-lifting in the task of repairing Tyrion's ruined reputation? She doesn't like him.

And why is she taking responsibility for Tyrion? Why would she have to? Not seeing how she owes him anything.

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

- Dany will be queen, hated, and kicked out off the throne, and Tyrion will play some part in that. Tyrion will be a dragon rider and Sansa will position him as the natural defender of the realm should Dany return. Dany will be seen of foreign gods or R'hllor and Sansa will point to Tyrion having historically defeated Red God Stannis and saved the city.

1. Why would Sansa do that? Why wouldn't Sansa -- I don't know -- position herself or one of her family members or a Martell or anyone else as a natural defender of the realm? And why would people be okay with this logic? By this point, Tyrion will have betrayed three different monarchs for another. Sansa will be a great politician no doubt but she's not a magician. Again...what would be her motive? She doesn't like him.
2. Yes, Tyrion saved King's Landing from Stannis and his red god...before publicly stating he wished he had enough poison to kill every highborn person present and that he should've let Stannis kill them all. Mind you, he all but screamed this

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

- The Faith will be very powerful, the DWDs will very much be a religious war. Lancel is going to rise to become High Septon and particularly has good reason to believe in the judgement of Tyrion and good nature of Sansa.

I agree with how powerful the Faith will be and how the Second Dance is going to be a religious war.

But why would Lancel rise so high? Why would he believe in the judgment of Tyrion? Didn't Tyrion bully and terrorize him in A Clash of Kings?! For stuff that wasn't even his fault?

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

- Cersei will push for Sansa to be trialed for her role in Joff's death and will succeed. Sansa will demand a trial by Seven which will culminate in the unmasking of Robert Strong, this will see Cersei fall, she will be known to be in league with the undead and Tyrion will be largely forgiven as his trial was against an undead combatant and Cersei was his accuser.

The timelines for this is all off.

Cersei's trial is next week, Sansa is doing a good job pretending to be someone else a couple hundred of miles away in the Vale, there is inclement weather, the Red Keep is in chaos, Littlefinger is too powerful and observant to let Sansa be kidnapped and taken hundred of miles away on his watch, Cersei has no real power of her own in the capital anymore and, as this is the Middle Ages, no one is travelling that quickly.

If a trial-by-combat unfolds and Robert Strong is unmasked, then this is more likely to involve the Sand Snakes and the Tyrells. Not Sansa.

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

- Tyrion is a package deal with Sansa who will be loved by the people and particularly the Faith, she will stand in contrast to Cersei, Arianne and Dany as seemingly whole heartedly pure and of the Seven. There are seemingly never ending quotes I can point to from Tyrion/Sansa's POVs that are concerning the at the time current ruling situation in KL but double as commentary/set up for their own rule, and this is probably the most poignant of all.

Again.

Why is Tyrion a package deal with Sansa? Why would Sansa or any of her family members allow that?

Sansa doesn't want to have anything to do with Tyrion. Never did and she probably never will.

And Sansa is considered to be a kingslayer herself and the daughter/sister of traitors and rebels. I don't think the people of King's Landing will like her all that much either...

On 1/13/2022 at 3:28 PM, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion will reconcile with Jaime

I doubt that will happen.

A LOT will need to happen for those two to reconcile and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Again: you're underestimating the stigma of kinslaying. And it's not just any family member. It was their father!

And Tyrion also wants to rape, torture and kill Cersei. Even if Jaime has this terrible falling out with Cersei, he's not going to be okay with that.

[EggBlue]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:39 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There is also the eternal question of who to bethrothe the Stark kids with, one question that will surely be asked and reminded many times by the northern lords as well as Littlefinger and the Vale allies, since I don't think that Littlefinger's plan to marry Sansa to Harold Hardyng will work out and that many northern lords will hope to marry Sansa to their son or to themselves. 

Same for Arya once she comes back home.

No doubt that they will also want to marry their daughters, granddaughters or nieces to Bran and/or Rickon, and that Wyman Manderly in particular may hope to marry his beloved Wylla or Wynafrid to Rickon and/or to Bran when he comes back to Winterfell as reward for his efforts to depose the Boltons and restore house Stark to power, as well for the northern fleet that he has built and hidden.

I'd like to think Sansa won't marry politically if she ever does..  Arya..I can't make up my mind about her ... she was once betrothed to a Frey.. maybe we'll see something of the same sort in the future?

it's the boys -Jon and Rickon- who I assumed will marry in asoiaf books for alliances.. Rickon to Wylla Manderly or a Skagosi and Jon to Val and later maybe Dany. However , "will Jon have an erection thread" is giving me doubts