Gilly and Mance's sons fate

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

What do you think will be the fates of the two babies that were swapped during AFFC, that are the son that Gilly had from her twisted father Craster and Mance Rayder and Dalla's son, due to Jon Snow fearing that Melissandre would have taken Mance's son and burned him as a sacrifice for his royal blood ?

Do you think that the two shall survive until their adulthood, or at least their teenage years, or will at least one of them dies a child ?

Will they ever reunite with their respective biological families ? What importance they and the swap will have in the future of ASOIAF ?

[EggBlue]

unfortunately , I think Gilly's baby might go to the flames. Jon is currently either dead or in a coma and Val is beyond the wall as I recall , thus, nobody knows little monster isn't Mance's child to prevent Mel (who will hear of her king's defeat and witness her Snow's fall in the aftermath of PL ) from burning the poor kid for her own desperate hopes. meanwhile, little Aemon might live long as his namesake did:) 

the significance of baby swap ,in my view, is largely for drawing a parallel with events and possibilities of the past. though , for the future, Monster's dead would definitely make Jon feel guilty and broken due to the promise he made to Gilly. besides, it most certainly anger the wildlings and might cause a war between them and the Watch ,if there already isn't .

[Apoplexy]

44 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

unfortunately , I think Gilly's baby might go to the flames. Jon is currently either dead or in a coma and Val is beyond the wall as I recall , thus, nobody knows little monster isn't Mance's child to prevent Mel (who will hear of her king's defeat and witness her Snow's fall in the aftermath of PL ) from burning the poor kid for her own desperate hopes. meanwhile, little Aemon might live long as his namesake did:) 

the significance of baby swap ,in my view, is largely for drawing a parallel with events and possibilities of the past. though , for the future, Monster's dead would definitely make Jon feel guilty and broken due to the promise he made to Gilly. besides, it most certainly anger the wildlings and might cause a war between them and the Watch ,if there already isn't .

I agree.

Also, I think since this baby swap is indeed true, I am getting a feeling that the Aegon baby swap will turn out to be false somehow.

[Egged]

Selyse will kidnap Monster, and either burn him or he’ll be given to the Others.

Mance’s son… we’ll see. I think someone who is supposed to be one of “the good guys” will want him dead out of anger against Mance.

[EggBlue]

36 minutes ago, Egged said:

 

Mance’s son… we’ll see. I think someone who is supposed to be one of “the good guys” will want him dead out of anger against Mance.

do you have a suggestion who that good guy might be?

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Mance's son is with Gilly in the south onboard the same boat they took to get there.  They will accompany Marwyn to meet Dany.  The Queen can find some use for them.  The baby has king's blood and she can use him to take control of the Wildlings without the need to use force. 

Gilly's own son is at the wall and he is in danger from the red woman.  Jon was playing with his life. 

[Egged]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

do you have a suggestion who that good guy might be?

Not yet, too unclear what Mance’s real intentions are regarding Winterfell.

[Julia H.]

23 hours ago, EggBlue said:

and Val is beyond the wall as I recall

Val is beyond the Wall? 

[X-Buster]

On 12/25/2021 at 4:51 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What do you think will be the fates of the two babies that were swapped during AFFC, that are the son that Gilly had from her twisted father Craster and Mance Rayder and Dalla's son, due to Jon Snow fearing that Melissandre would have taken Mance's son and burned him as a sacrifice for his royal blood ?

Do you think that the two shall survive until their adulthood, or at least their teenage years, or will at least one of them dies a child ?

Will they ever reunite with their respective biological families ? What importance they and the swap will have in the future of ASOIAF ?

Cruel Irony.  Mellissandre will burn Gilly's baby and his Stark blood (because Craster has Stark blood) will produce a miracle.  His death will birth another shadowbaby.  Jon's soul will inhabit the shadow baby if his body happens to be in close proximity.  Gilly and Samwell will never forgive Jon but a shadow is no longer human.

Mance's baby will be raised by the Tarlys.  

[Curled Finger]

Gilly's baby absolutely cannot be named as she adamantly instructs Jon.   This is a very big deal to her and she will extend the same to Dalla's boy.  But at least Gilly's baby has a nickname given him by Val, which is Monster.  Bad luck to name Wildling babies until they are 2 or 3 indeed and Val seems to be fond of this baby.   Stuck up in the tower with a raging giant below guarding her door, if the baby is with Val nothing will happen to him.  Unless Melisandre has some sort of transport spell.  No I think Shireen for the value of her kings blood to Mel and the curse of greyscale (as told by Val) will be precisely how an agreement to burn her will transpire.   Her dumbass mom Selyse, doesn't like her anyway. 

Gilly's boy was intended for The Others.   They have come for him and they want him.  Inasmuch as I really hope the little guy escapes the Others I think he is the force drawing them to the Wall.  But Val is fierce and will do all she can to protect him.  There is an opportunity for readers to see what the whole Craster sacrifice was really about if they get to him and that would be something about the others, but a really lousy way to get.  Gird your loins.   

We aren't even sure where Gilly and Dalla's boy are--on the boat, on the dock--where?  Whether they end up up with Dany or Sam you can be certain no harm will come to him.   The biggest problem I see facing Dalla's boy is surviving both travel and winter.   At least he is safer than little Monster.  

[EggBlue]

14 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Val is beyond the Wall? 

I'm not sure. that's how I remember it.

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Gilly's baby absolutely cannot be named as she adamantly instructs Jon.   This is a very big deal to her and she will extend the same to Dalla's boy.  But at least Gilly's baby has a nickname given him by Val, which is Monster.  Bad luck to name Wildling babies until they are 2 or 3 indeed and Val seems to be fond of this baby.   Stuck up in the tower with a raging giant below guarding her door, if the baby is with Val nothing will happen to him.  Unless Melisandre has some sort of transport spell.  No I think Shireen for the value of her kings blood to Mel and the curse of greyscale (as told by Val) will be precisely how an agreement to burn her will transpire.   Her dumbass mom Selyse, doesn't like her anyway. 

Gilly's boy was intended for The Others.   They have come for him and they want him.  Inasmuch as I really hope the little guy escapes the Others I think he is the force drawing them to the Wall.  But Val is fierce and will do all she can to protect him.  There is an opportunity for readers to see what the whole Craster sacrifice was really about if they get to him and that would be something about the others, but a really lousy way to get.  Gird your loins.   

We aren't even sure where Gilly and Dalla's boy are--on the boat, on the dock--where?  Whether they end up up with Dany or Sam you can be certain no harm will come to him.   The biggest problem I see facing Dalla's boy is surviving both travel and winter.   At least he is safer than little Monster.  

1. Absolute safer than little Monster.  Dalla and Mance's son is indeed safer if they can get away before Euron attacks Oldtown. 
2. Shireen is a key to what happens to little Monster.  Isn't it convenient how the boy doesn't yet have a name?  Like he was being prepared for the Others who was to give him a name after they transform him.  This little guy COULD become the new vessel for Jon Snow.  Shireen's blood will power the magic to bring Snow's soul into little Monster.  It's just a possibility. 
3. Yes so the Others want their boy back and they get a baby with Jon's soul instead.  If the time frame is long enough, yes, we get to see Jon become an Other.  Will his mind still fixate on Arya?  Hmm. 

[Julia H.]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gilly's baby absolutely cannot be named as she adamantly instructs Jon.   This is a very big deal to her and she will extend the same to Dalla's boy.  But at least Gilly's baby has a nickname given him by Val, which is Monster.  Bad luck to name Wildling babies until they are 2 or 3 indeed and Val seems to be fond of this baby.   Stuck up in the tower with a raging giant below guarding her door, if the baby is with Val nothing will happen to him.  Unless Melisandre has some sort of transport spell.  No I think Shireen for the value of her kings blood to Mel and the curse of greyscale (as told by Val) will be precisely how an agreement to burn her will transpire.   Her dumbass mom Selyse, doesn't like her anyway. 

Gilly's boy was intended for The Others.   They have come for him and they want him.  Inasmuch as I really hope the little guy escapes the Others I think he is the force drawing them to the Wall.  But Val is fierce and will do all she can to protect him.  There is an opportunity for readers to see what the whole Craster sacrifice was really about if they get to him and that would be something about the others, but a really lousy way to get.  Gird your loins.   

We aren't even sure where Gilly and Dalla's boy are--on the boat, on the dock--where?  Whether they end up up with Dany or Sam you can be certain no harm will come to him.   The biggest problem I see facing Dalla's boy is surviving both travel and winter.   At least he is safer than little Monster.  

That's very interesting. I do hope little Monster has a purpose in the story which is different from a baby burning scene. With all the cruelty already described in the books, the line should be drawn somewhere...

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I'm not sure. that's how I remember it.

The last thing we know of Val is that Ser Patrek wants to steal her from her tower in Castle Black wildling-style but is stopped by Wun Wun. If Val has left Castle Black, the readers haven't been told yet. Still if she went anywhere, chances are she took Monster with her (if for no other purpose, then to keep him away from Shireen). 

While we are on this topic, I'm curious what current opinions are on the theory that the baby swap may not have taken place after all. I'm in two minds about it. The two babies apparently change their behaviour after the swap, on the one hand, but, on the other hand, Gilly's grief seems to be totally genuine. Then again, she could cry because she is afraid that what she did would be discovered or because she feels guilty about leaving behind Mance's child in mortal danger. Yet, the name she chooses for the baby does not make sense if the baby is not Mance's son. There is also Val, who seems to be very fond of Monster. She could be fond of a child not related to her, but when she finds him (supposedly) threatened by Shireen's condition, one has the feeling she still regards him as her sister's child and her own nephew.

[Egged]

I think when Stannis is defeated and takes the black to become 999th lord commander at the Nightfort, after Selyse destroyed the alliance with the free folk and kidnapped Monster and wildling hostages as she and her men fled to the Nightfort, where Mel has come as she feels increasingly desperate, as the winter storm rages on them and greyscale spreads, Stannis will open the Black Gate, and Mel, utterly hysterical at having had Shireen burned and getting nothing for it, will offer Monster to the Others.

Quote

 

"No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don't know . . . a kind of woman's courage. And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis."

Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb's turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck. "When the time comes, I will not hold you back."

 

Quote

"The Nightfort is the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall," the king said. "That is where I intend to make my seat, whilst I fight this war. You will show me this gate."

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. 

Sunset, the opposite of dawn.

[EggBlue]

15 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

That's very interesting. I do hope little Monster has a purpose in the story which is different from a baby burning scene. With all the cruelty already described in the books, the line should be drawn somewhere...

The last thing we know of Val is that Ser Patrek wants to steal her from her tower in Castle Black wildling-style but is stopped by Wun Wun. If Val has left Castle Black, the readers haven't been told yet. Still if she went anywhere, chances are she took Monster with her (if for no other purpose, then to keep him away from Shireen). 

thanks. I forgot that. that's a good thing though , I hope Val can protect the boy. now I'm in favor of the theory that says Val's a witch .. it could become a showdown between a woodswitch and a red witch:)

15 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

While we are on this topic, I'm curious what current opinions are on the theory that the baby swap may not have taken place after all. I'm in two minds about it. The two babies apparently change their behaviour after the swap, on the one hand, but, on the other hand, Gilly's grief seems to be totally genuine. Then again, she could cry because she is afraid that what she did would be discovered or because she feels guilty about leaving behind Mance's child in mortal danger. Yet, the name she chooses for the baby does not make sense if the baby is not Mance's son. There is also Val, who seems to be very fond of Monster. She could be fond of a child not related to her, but when she finds him (supposedly) threatened by Shireen's condition, one has the feeling she still regards him as her sister's child and her own nephew.

no , I think the swap definitely happened. Gilly is the proof of that. she is no schemer nor a deceiver . she simply cried and didn't say anything when she was supposed to keep the child's identity from Sam , then later on she talked calmly and with no stress about naming the boy and reasoning on how the name is related to Dalla . she wouldn't lie like that. as for Val I think she has an affection for monster since she is basically raising him . what is more , Monster is the last thing Val can cling on .. she has lost her sister , brother in law , nephew and freedom in different ways. it's only natural that she finds herself love this baby who is also all alone in the world.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Egged said:

I think when Stannis is defeated and takes the black to become 999th lord commander at the Nightfort, after Selyse destroyed the alliance with the free folk and kidnapped Monster and wildling hostages as she and her men fled to the Nightfort, where Mel has come as she feels increasingly desperate, as the winter storm rages on them and greyscale spreads, Stannis will open the Black Gate, and Mel, utterly hysterical at having had Shireen burned and getting nothing for it, will offer Monster to the Others.

Egads that's just awful!   I can envision this horror!   However, Shireen has got King's Blood and I think it will do the trick.   I can't see Mel so much as handing over little Monster as perhaps one of the dissatisfied Wildlings--oh that's just all bad.  I have long wondered if Crasters son's aren't part of the Pact.   Surely it was readdressed and modified after the Long Night???  A last desperate act to make things right--something at least one person in the north remembers?  

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gilly's baby absolutely cannot be named as she adamantly instructs Jon. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Warrior, make me brave. "I know little of dragons and less of gods . . . but the queen spoke of curses. No man is as cursed as the kinslayer, in the eyes of gods and men."

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken."

 

 

[Egged]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Egads that's just awful!   I can envision this horror!   However, Shireen has got King's Blood and I think it will do the trick.   I can't see Mel so much as handing over little Monster as perhaps one of the dissatisfied Wildlings--oh that's just all bad.  I have long wondered if Crasters son's aren't part of the Pact.   Surely it was readdressed and modified after the Long Night???  A last desperate act to make things right--something at least one person in the north remembers?  

If giving Monster to the Others causes them to leave for a time, until a solution is found to defeat them it might be all that Stannis, Mel, and the Watch (at least at the Nightfort) can do.

Another possibility is that Monster would stay at Castleblack, and it would be Jon or Val or both who would hand over Monster to the Others as it is the only thing they can do for now.

Both Jon and Stannis have a potential "Night's King and Corpse Bride" future. Val dresses in all white, was found north of the wall, has blue eyes. Could go either way. Could be two parallel plots; Stannis with Mel burning Shireen to stop the Others, and it fails to do so. Jon and Val giving up Monster, to hold them back for a time, and it works.

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

Just spooky like only you can lay it out.  After I composed my bit above I looked up the only other Wilding baby I could remember, Little Lump, Varamyr's baby brother.   He was only 2.  (I did find the babies have to be 3 to get a name though)  Varamyr gave him the name.   I don't know what it means, but we know what happened to Lump and none of this can be good. 

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Just spooky like only you can lay it out.  After I composed my bit above I looked up the only other Wilding baby I could remember, Little Lump, Varamyr's baby brother.   He was only 2.  (I did find the babies have to be 3 to get a name though)  Varamyr gave him the name.   I don't know what it means, but we know what happened to Lump and none of this can be good. 

I'm not sure of the magical powers that someone can have over a name.  Saying someone's true name gives you power over them in some way; which is probably why the faceless men give up their names and identity. You cannot know them.  Invoking a powerful demon's name draws their attention to you.  Not having a name protects you in some way.