Gilly and Mance's sons fate

[Moiraine Sedai]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Egads that's just awful!   I can envision this horror!   However, Shireen has got King's Blood and I think it will do the trick.   I can't see Mel so much as handing over little Monster as perhaps one of the dissatisfied Wildlings--oh that's just all bad.  I have long wondered if Crasters son's aren't part of the Pact.   Surely it was readdressed and modified after the Long Night???  A last desperate act to make things right--something at least one person in the north remembers?  

There is king’s blood and that is anybody in the family. The blood of the king himself is different. It may be the latter that is needed. The son of the king beyond the wall has the blood as soon as Mance dies.  

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is king’s blood and that is anybody in the family. The blood of the king himself is different. It may be the latter that is needed. The son of the king beyond the wall has the blood as soon as Mance dies.  

I didn't realize there was a difference in an actual king's blood and that of family members.  You learn something new everyday around here.  BTW:  I finally understand your user name.  Just finished book 1.  This could maybe get me through our Long Night.

[Mister Smikes]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:40 PM, EggBlue said:

unfortunately , I think Gilly's baby might go to the flames.

Gilly's foster baby is in greater danger, seeing as she has fallen into the hands of Marwyn the blood mage.  Someone is going to wake those stone dragons.  And Aegon has mysterious friends in the reach. 

A mystery -- why does everyone take Marwyn at his word when he tells Sam -- trust ME because I'm on team Dany too.  Nah, he's not on team Dany.  He's on another team that wants dragons of its own.  And now they have a kingsblood baby and a picked kingsblood corpse.  And they will use them.

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I didn't realize there was a difference in an actual king's blood and that of family members.

Yes, the exact parameters of qualifying "family" are unclear, but they at least include the children of kings.  Example, Mel doing magic with the King's Blood she leeched from Edric Storm.

[James West]

On 12/26/2021 at 12:19 AM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Mance's son is with Gilly in the south onboard the same boat they took to get there.  They will accompany Marwyn to meet Dany.  The Queen can find some use for them.  The baby has king's blood and she can use him to take control of the Wildlings without the need to use force. 

Gilly's own son is at the wall and he is in danger from the red woman.  Jon was playing with his life. 

Gilly will become a source of information for Daenerys with regards to the Wildlings and White Walkers.  Her own son is in harm's way.  Mel won't believe he isn't a Rayder.  

[Lady Anna]

On 12/27/2021 at 2:56 PM, Curled Finger said:

Gilly's boy was intended for The Others.   They have come for him and they want him.  Inasmuch as I really hope the little guy escapes the Others I think he is the force drawing them to the Wall.  But Val is fierce and will do all she can to protect him.  There is an opportunity for readers to see what the whole Craster sacrifice was really about if they get to him and that would be something about the others, but a really lousy way to get.  Gird your loins.  

Interesting! I've never heard this before but I'm intrigued by this ideia.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Interesting! I've never heard this before but I'm intrigued by this ideia.

Just another bait and switch Martin is so very good at.   Everyone is thinking about Dalla's boy but it seems only Gilly is thinking about her babe.  It's all about protecting that valuable kings blood.  Craster told us he sacrifices--all the devices of his life are twisted to some cult mindset.  Gilly told us what would happen if her child was male while her sisters and mothers and aunts told us about Craster's sons.  Wish I had a map of the Others' movements after Sam rescued Gilly.  Were they on the same path or running adjacent or parallel?  The cold gods have been showing up all over the place for the past what? 20 years?  15 Years?  Mormont understood much more about the Others than he was willing to speak plainly out loud, but he does give us more than 1 reason to believe.  Just wish he'd told us plainly what Craster was doing and why.   Our imaginations are pretty twisted where the Others are concerned.  Here we have Gilly's robust boy separated from his milk brother and wet nurse.  Little as he is I would think he would notice his world changed.   Will this actually be the child sacrificed for reasons far more nefarious than Mel's own kiss of life?  

[SeanF]

I think Monster will be consigned to the flames, either because he’s believed to be Mance’s, or because he’s revealed as Ann”abomination born of incest.”  Either way, Mel will see him as a fitting sacrifice.

The baby swap was a really shitty thing for Jon to do.

[Julia H.]

I don't think Jon wanted save one baby by sacrificing another one. I think he was planning to tell Stannis and Melisandre who Monster was as soon as they were taking the first move towards a baby sacrifice. Stannis may do a lot for power, but he is not a Ramsay who would easily kill a baby just because he can. However, after "Mance's" execution, the plan was apparently off the agenda, and later Jon learned that they had not even executed Mance. While Mance is alive, his son is not a king. 

To provide some hope for Monster: I don't think it's impossible that Melisandre knows about the baby swap, but I find it even more likely that the fact that she uses Mance for other purposes is indication that she has stopped regarding him as king. Selyse has already explained to Jon that Mance was a lowborn nobody and a usurper, and her information is likely to come from Melisandre. Gerrick Kingsblood, however.... I think he is there to save Monster now that Jon cannot look after him. King of the Wildlings. And what a name... 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Jon was willing to sacrifice Gilly’s baby because of his own personal feelings for Mance. He valued one baby and not the other. Jon was a crappy leader and commander.  Gilly has every right to betray Jon. I hope she does. 

[Julia H.]

Quote

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. 

Quote

 

The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

 

ADwD Jon I

[Quoth the raven,]

Mance Rayder II and Craster Ii should have both been sent to the south for safety.  Jon's plan was to have Mellissandre burn Craster II and make her think the boy was Rayder II.  Jon knowingly sacrificed Gilly's baby. 

Rayder II is on the Cinnamon Wind with the Archmaester. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:13 PM, Curled Finger said:

I didn't realize there was a difference in an actual king's blood and that of family members.  You learn something new everyday around here.  BTW:  I finally understand your user name.  Just finished book 1.  This could maybe get me through our Long Night.

 

Oh The Wheel of Time is great.  I’m delighted for you. The show has its ups and downs though. The choice of Rosamund Pike to play me is a good one.  I like the actors for Lan, Perrin, and Elan Morin Tedronai. The rest ____ let’s just say they went in a direction which I do not prefer. 
 

You will LOVE The Great Hunt. You’ve got something to escape to for a few years in Jordan’s world. 
 

Curled Finger, do not think that I will be nicer to the Starks, ok!  My loyalties and affections are with Dany.  

 

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Oh The Wheel of Time is great.

I've actually never read it. Is it fair to say if I enjoyed LotR and ASoIaF I'd probably enjoy these?

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

Oh The Wheel of Time is great.  I’m delighted for you. The show has its ups and downs though. The choice of Rosamund Pike to play me is a good one.  I like the actors for Lan, Perrin, and Elan Morin Tedronai. The rest ____ let’s just say they went in a direction which I do not prefer. 
 

You will LOVE The Great Hunt. You’ve got something to escape to for a few years in Jordan’s world. 
 

Curled Finger, do not think that I will be nicer to the Starks, ok!  My loyalties and affections are with Dany.  

 

It's not my job nor intention to change anyone's mind.   ASOIAF would not be what it is without Dany...or The Lannisters...or The Starks.  The tale is big enough for everyone.   

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I've actually never read it. Is it fair to say if I enjoyed LotR and ASoIaF I'd probably enjoy these?

Oh yah.  

[Julia H.]

I provided two quotes above which show what Jon's opinion was of burning children in general (children in the plural, any child) - only a monster would do it. 

He explains why he does not think it a good idea to send both boys South:

Quote

"Take both boys and the queen's men will ride after you and drag you back. The boy will still burn … and you with him."

Melisandre cannot be trifled with, and Jon may not get a second chance to save the baby. 

He also explains why Gilly's boy is in no danger:

Quote

"Your son has no king's blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he'll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He'll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I'll even see that he is taught to read and write." Sam would like that. "And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He'll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants."

So the plan is that Stannis and Melisandre will learn about the baby swap when Mance's son is at a safe distance from them. 

Not a happy story, but it's the surest way Jon sees to prevent the baby sacrifice.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 12/25/2021 at 4:51 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What do you think will be the fates of the two babies that were swapped during AFFC, that are the son that Gilly had from her twisted father Craster and Mance Rayder and Dalla's son, due to Jon Snow fearing that Melissandre would have taken Mance's son and burned him as a sacrifice for his royal blood ?

Do you think that the two shall survive until their adulthood, or at least their teenage years, or will at least one of them dies a child ?

Doubtful.  At least one will die. 

Will they ever reunite with their respective biological families ? What importance they and the swap will have in the future of ASOIAF ?

Craster's boy will die at the Wall.  No, for him.  Mance Rayder's boy will make the long trip to Meereen.  He will grow up in Dany's court.  He will grow up with Ghiscari and Dothraki.  Mance Rayder and the Wildlings will live on in his blood after they have perished in Westeros.  The surviving Wildlings will migrate to Essos and there is a chance of a reunion.  Gilly Craster has the old blood of the First Men and the Starks.  Quaithe may find her a useful subject to study. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:40 PM, EggBlue said:

unfortunately , I think Gilly's baby might go to the flames. Jon is currently either dead or in a coma and Val is beyond the wall as I recall , thus, nobody knows little monster isn't Mance's child to prevent Mel (who will hear of her king's defeat and witness her Snow's fall in the aftermath of PL ) from burning the poor kid for her own desperate hopes. meanwhile, little Aemon might live long as his namesake did:) 

Val is not beyond the Wall. She returned to Castle Black and brought Tormund with her and she is still there. In the final pages of his chapter, after Jon leaves the Shieldhall and hears the scream, he thinks that it has to do with Val, bur arrives to find Wun Wun swinging Ser Patrek around.

About the babies, Val seemed fairly convinced that Melisandre knows that the babies have been swapped and she didn't stop it because it suited her.

More than that, though, the baby doesn't matter as much as he might have at the start of ADwD. One of the men Maester Aemon was treating said that Mel and Stannis intended to burn Mance and then his son so that both can die kings.

Melisandre saved Mance from the flames. She burned Rattleshirt instead, so I don't think she is intent on burning his "son." And there's actually something really interesting that bookends the burning of the father and then the son so that both may died kings. It so happens that Gerrick Kingsblood was named the king of the wildlings by Selyse while Mance was named a usurper. Gerrick also has a son who is one of Jon's hostages. 

And she and Stannis have an even more valuable person they can burn and whose blood is unquestioned. Shireen.

So all that to say that Monster will likely not burn. I think he will end up at Winterfell whenever Jon leaves the Wall. Mance's son will likely end up there eventually. Although whether Gilly is still on the Cinammon Wind with the baby when Marwyn fucks off to Slaver's Bay on that ship remains to be seen.