Will Jaime become a "True Knight", or the Smiling Knight?

[Egged]

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"Have their tongues out," urged Strongboar.

"Good luck getting answers then," said Jaime. "If you want their help, you need to make them love you. That was how Arthur Dayne did it, when we rode against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He paid the smallfolk for the food we ate, brought their grievances to King Aerys, expanded the grazing lands around their villages, even won them the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer during the autumn. The forest folk had looked to Toyne to defend them, but Ser Arthur did more for them than the Brotherhood could ever hope to do, and won them to our side. After that, the rest was easy."

"The Lord Commander speaks wisely," said Lady Mariya. "We shall never be rid of these outlaws until the smallfolk come to love Lancel as much as they once loved my father and grandfather."

Jaime glanced at his cousin's empty place. Lancel will never win their love by praying, though.

Lady Amerei put on a pout. "Ser Jaime, I pray you, do not abandon us. My lord has need of you, and so do I. These are such fearful times. Some nights I can hardly sleep, for fear."

"My place is with the king, my lady."

 

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And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

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Lady Genna waved her cup in dismissal. "No, that horse has left the yard. Emm has it in his pointed head that he will rule the riverlands. And Lancel . . . I suppose we should have seen this coming from afar. A life protecting the High Septon is not so different from a life protecting the king, after all. Kevan will be wroth, I fear. As wroth as Tywin was when you got it in your head to take the white.

 

Lancel is like Jaime was as a boy, and Lancel will likely be at the forefront of the effort to turn the smallfolks against the Brotherhood Without Banner. Considering the horrors spoken of regarding the Hound's massacres around the Riverlands, and that the one with the helmet is now among the BwB, it should be obvious enough that the BwB are going to be "the bad guys" and Jaime is going to be either dead, or forced to serve under Lady Stoneheart, against those who are rising to stand against them as they once did under Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Will Jaime end up having to kill Lancel as he is forced to serve on Lady Stoneheart and "the Hound"'s side? Lancel is much as Jaime was, as Lady Genna said.

Will Jaime avoid becoming ever more "the Smiling Knight"? How?

[Curled Finger]

Whether he likes it or not Jamie will protect his sister.  Like all men he is only a man or perhaps an onion is a better frame of reference.  As to Jamie's service to LSH, we don't yet know what she wants of him.  It may be as simple as his head on a spike.  Jamie has the qualities and characteristics of a true knight finding his truth again.   That doesn't mean he will live up to all his own ideals but deal with each horrible situation as it arises because he simply cannot have all the right answers to everything.  If it came down to Cersei burning down the city with Lancel trying to hurt her you betcha Jamie will knock his ass out.   Or if the Sparrows imprison her or any numbers of scenarios.  The most interesting situation will be if Cersei and Brienne get at odds with each other.  Lancel won't matter at all if what Jamie loves is in danger.  

Jamie has a lot of information and seems quite practiced at keeping secrets.  He may know the Hound better than we think he does and just do away with Lem Lemoncloak.   Jamie isn't that predictable now that he is making a conscious effort to be Brienne, I mean the knight he once thought he could be.   

[Mister Smikes]

Jaime is a narcissist.  He wants to be loved.  But he does not love goodness for its own sake.  In the end, he will become neither Arthur Dayne nor the Smiling Knight.  He will become undead demonic "savior" wielding a red hot flaming sword in his animated golden hand, and bribing the smallfolk with cursed gifts that will only serve to accellerate the destruction of mankind.

[Lord Lannister]

8 hours ago, Egged said:

That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

It's one of my favorite quotes of Jaime. The thing I remember about Jaime was the was the only member of the supposedly most noble version of the Kingsguard to protest Aerys raping Rhaella and wanting to intervene. In the end he's neither Dayne or the Smiling Knight but his own person with many shades of gray. Though we often can be our own worst critics.

If you remove Cersei from the equation he's arguably one of the most heroic and good people in the series. Almost all his negative actions stem from his association with Cersei. She's like a drug for him. He's finally realizing she's no good for him, but he still longs for her and he probably will relapse. 

[Egged]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Jaime is a narcissist.  He wants to be loved.  But he does not love goodness for its own sake.  In the end, he will become neither Arthur Dayne nor the Smiling Knight.  He will become undead demonic "savior" wielding a red hot flaming sword in his animated golden hand, and bribing the smallfolk with cursed gifts that will only serve to accellerate the destruction of mankind.

Sounds more like Euron.

[Egged]

8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

It's one of my favorite quotes of Jaime. The thing I remember about Jaime was the was the only member of the supposedly most noble version of the Kingsguard to protest Aerys raping Rhaella and wanting to intervene. In the end he's neither Dayne or the Smiling Knight but his own person with many shades of gray. Though we often can be our own worst critics.

If you remove Cersei from the equation he's arguably one of the most heroic and good people in the series. Almost all his negative actions stem from his association with Cersei. She's like a drug for him. He's finally realizing she's no good for him, but he still longs for her and he probably will relapse. 

It's a good quote, that part and his dinner scene with the Freys are my favorite ones of his, but all of his chapters are great.

Cersei was a little girl brought up to believe she would marry the perfect prince. She has an upbringing that in some ways is akin to Sansa's own, her head filled with dreams which were shattered by reality.

Then she was exposed to prophecies that made her ever fearful of the future, in a way enslaving her to fear.

What Cersei has become, so could have Sansa.

Jaime, similarly had his head filled with dreams, also shattered by reality. I am not so sure that he is seeking to do good, rather he is hoping Brienne can succeed where he failed. He constantly looks down on himself, and the chapter with the dinner scene and his meeting with Lancel demonstrates as much. People plead for help and he can't bring himself to stand up for them, because he is afraid of failure after what he has gone through.

So far, he is not on a path to becoming a "true knight", he has given up on that each time the opportunity presented itself to him, and now he is about to either be killed, or more likely be forced to be part of a band of outlaws of which the leader is a vengeful spirit and one of its members is the monstrous "Hound" who has been mass-murdering and raping across the Riverlands, right after he told people to do like Ser Arthur Dayne did to defeat the Mountain of his days.

Not looking good for him.

[Mark of the West]

Neither.  The Smiling Knight and Arthur Dayne; both are metaphors. Paragons of good and evil. It's hypnotic to watch Jaime vacillate from one to the other in thought and deed because he's not a convenient hero. He's the anti-Eddard. Anti-heroes are more interesting and less predictable. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

“True Knight” is not in Jaime’s nature. He doesn’t have the discipline. He follows his feelings and feelings can lead a person astray from his duties. Knighthood is about duty and service. It’s not about injecting his own values afterwards. 

[HoodedCrow]

I think Cersei is a textbook Narcissist, but Jamie has more to him. I can’t recall Cersei ever once being kind or even sympathetic until the Walk of Shame( which should make her worse). Jaime did not want to burn down Kings Landing. He was moved by Brienne’s courage and honor. He saved her life three(?) times. He gave her a great weapon. He did want to be like Arthur Dayne, and yet was disillusioned by many things. His Dad was nasty, and his mother was dead. He didn’t go out of his way to kill his friends and clearly he is upset by the Tysha horror. A narcissist would not have the feelings that we see in Jaime, but he seemed like that until the author revealed layers to his character. He is struggling for insight, clarity and identity. Cersei is shown to be chaotic, untrustworthy, murderous and paranoid.

 

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

empty content

[Egged]

48 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think Cersei is a textbook Narcissist, but Jamie has more to him. I can’t recall Cersei ever once being kind or even sympathetic until the Walk of Shame( which should make her worse). Jaime did not want to burn down Kings Landing. He was moved by Brienne’s courage and honor. He saved her life three(?) times. He gave her a great weapon. He did want to be like Arthur Dayne, and yet was disillusioned by many things. His Dad was nasty, and his mother was dead. He didn’t go out of his way to kill his friends and clearly he is upset by the Tysha horror. A narcissist would not have the feelings that we see in Jaime, but he seemed like that until the author revealed layers to his character. He is struggling for insight, clarity and identity. Cersei is shown to be chaotic, untrustworthy, murderous and paranoid.

There is reason to believe that Johanna is not dead, that she joined the Silent Sisters (maybe ordered to do so by Tywin, I'm guessing after he figured Tyrion must surely have been born of Aerys).

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That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father's corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier. "Sister?" he said.
But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes. "Sister," he said, "what would you have of me?" His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe.

"I am not your sister, Jaime." She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. "Have you forgotten me?"

Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long . . .

"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly." Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. "He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most."

"Who are you?" He had to hear her say it.

"The question is, who are you?"

"This is a dream."

"Is it?" She smiled sadly. "Count your hands, child."

One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

 

[HoodedCrow]

I think a narcissist would want to appear to be a better man. Jaime didn't even bother to give the circumstances around the Kinslaying. Jaime wants to BE a better man. Is that his tragic flaw? I had Cersei down for the silent Sisters. It would be a surprise if Johanna were still alive, but it’s a cool idea. It is a great way to show how Cersei and Jamie's ambitions were successful, did not go well. Jaime also wanted to skip town and live with his lady love and children. Cersei wouldn’t do that for Jaime.

[Lord Lannister]

47 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think Cersei is a textbook Narcissist, but Jamie has more to him. I can’t recall Cersei ever once being kind or even sympathetic until the Walk of Shame( which should make her worse). Jaime did not want to burn down Kings Landing. He was moved by Brienne’s courage and honor. He saved her life three(?) times. He gave her a great weapon. He did want to be like Arthur Dayne, and yet was disillusioned by many things. His Dad was nasty, and his mother was dead. He didn’t go out of his way to kill his friends and clearly he is upset by the Tysha horror. A narcissist would not have the feelings that we see in Jaime, but he seemed like that until the author revealed layers to his character. He is struggling for insight, clarity and identity. Cersei is shown to be chaotic, untrustworthy, murderous and paranoid.

 

 

I agree. This even manifests itself in how they love each other. Jaime, however messed up it is, is a romantic who loves Cersei. I think Cersei just sees a male version of herself in Jaime. Who better for a narcissist to love than a copy of herself? When Jaime deviates from this mental image she has of him, is when she gets exceptionally nasty to him. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think Cersei is a textbook Narcissist, but Jamie has more to him. I can’t recall Cersei ever once being kind or even sympathetic until the Walk of Shame( which should make her worse). Jaime did not want to burn down Kings Landing. He was moved by Brienne’s courage and honor. He saved her life three(?) times. He gave her a great weapon. He did want to be like Arthur Dayne, and yet was disillusioned by many things. His Dad was nasty, and his mother was dead. He didn’t go out of his way to kill his friends and clearly he is upset by the Tysha horror. A narcissist would not have the feelings that we see in Jaime, but he seemed like that until the author revealed layers to his character. He is struggling for insight, clarity and identity. Cersei is shown to be chaotic, untrustworthy, murderous and paranoid.

 

 

100%. From an early age when she dumped her friend into a well and left her there to die without a second thought. Not to mention her sadism towards Tyrion in his cradle.

Jaimie provides narcissistic supply and when he returns without his sword hand he's less than perfect, somewhat repellent and no longer useful.  So she discards him.  He's now starting his own process of cutting her off and not responding to her attempts to reel him back in.

[HoodedCrow]

Jaime has been caught trying to uphold his vows to Catelyn. Stay tuned:) 

 

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think a narcissist would want to appear to be a better man. Jaime didn't even bother to give the circumstances around the Kinslaying.

That's because the lion does not explain himself to the wolf.  And if that is not narcissistic pride, what is?

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Jaime wants to BE a better man.

No he doesn't.  He wants to admire himself in the mirror.  Cersei used to be the mirror in which he admired himself.  But now that mirror is broken and he needs another mirror.

Reread Jaime's Lancel chapter.  Lancel wants to be a better man and Jaime despises him for it.  But Jaime does also talk to Ami about the love of the smallfolk, and why it is important.  It gives a pretty good idea of the shallowness of his newfound desire to be (perceived as) a better man.

 

[Egged]

35 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's because the lion does not explain himself to the wolf.  And if that is not narcissistic pride, what is?

No he doesn't.  He wants to admire himself in the mirror.  Cersei used to be the mirror in which he admired himself.  But now that mirror is broken and he needs another mirror.

Reread Jaime's Lancel chapter.  Lancel wants to be a better man and Jaime despises him for it.  But Jaime does also talk to Ami about the love of the smallfolk, and why it is important.  It gives a pretty good idea of the shallowness of his newfound desire to be (perceived as) a better man.

 

But he rejects every opportunity handed to him to be seen as a hero. He is training with Ilyn, so maybe he just doubts his capacity to fight currently, but Ami was asking him to help and he claims his place is by the king to walk away from it. I wonder if it's just a fear of losing in a fight.

[HoodedCrow]

Why bother reading the books?

[Arthur Peres]

7 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Jaime has been caught trying to uphold his vows to Catelyn. Stay tuned:) 

 

Nope. He broke every single vow he made to Catelyn.

He did not returned Sansa or Arya, in fact he didn't even tried to.

He didn't went to Kingslanding with Brienne, the moment he had the chance he attacked her.

He did went on to take arms against her family when he took control of a armie and marched against them Riverlords, and he personally threatned her unborn nephew and later on ordered a hit on her uncle.

9 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think Cersei is a textbook Narcissist, but Jamie has more to him. I can’t recall Cersei ever once being kind or even sympathetic until the Walk of Shame

 

Well she has... she show more concern and regret about tossing Bran out of the window than he did.

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Lickspittle. If truth be told, Jaime had come to rue heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die. “He wasseven , Jaime,” she’d berated him. “Even if he understood what he saw, we should have been able to frighten him into silence.”

 

 

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Egged said:

But he rejects every opportunity handed to him to be seen as a hero. 

Until recently, he has been satisfied with the illusion of Cersei's love, as a mirror for self admiration.  He is now looking for a substitute, but has not yet made up his mind.