Will Jaime become a "True Knight", or the Smiling Knight?

[Arthur Peres]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:23 AM, Apoplexy said:

I truly don't understand all the Jaime hate. He is far from perfect, but I don't get trying claim to everything he did was just evil or malicious.

 

He is a selfish and selfserving manchild that refuses to take responsabilty.

Jaime joined the KG not because he wanted to be a hero, or because he admired the KG, or because he saw as his duty to serve the king... he did because he wanted to fuck his sister, he swore a vow of celibate in order to keep sleeping with his sister... from the get go he already is selfserving and broking a oath he made, before it even comes into a dilema. The whole keep one vow to break the other does not work when from the starting point he already intended to break them.

Now he keeps blaming Cersei, or the KG, or Ned Stark, everything but himself for the choices he made "It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around." is a fine example of him refusing responsability for his actions, and blaming anyone and anything but himself.

[Dofs]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:21 PM, LynnS said:

Jaimie provides narcissistic supply and when he returns without his sword hand he's less than perfect, somewhat repellent and no longer useful.  So she discards him.  He's now starting his own process of cutting her off and not responding to her attempts to reel him back in.

Cersei never actually treats Jaime worse for his lack of a hand and never mentioned it as a reason why Jaime is no longer her perfect partner. I don't remember her being ever repelled by Jaime's condition, she was much more annoyed with Jaime refusing to shave than but it. Her problem was that Jaime started to voice his own opinions and desires, started to constantly argue with her and disagree with her, started to deny her wishes. The reason why Cersei discarded him was because he stopped being her yes-man, not due him missing a sword hand.

On 12/28/2021 at 9:48 PM, Mister Smikes said:

It gives a pretty good idea of the shallowness of his newfound desire to be (perceived as) a better man.

Which is why Jaime makes sure he is perceived as a bad man in Feast?

15 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Now he keeps blaming Cersei, or the KG, or Ned Stark, everything but himself for the choices he made "It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around." is a fine example of him refusing responsability for his actions, and blaming anyone and anything but himself.

Huh, feels like you stopped reading Jaime's chapters somewhere in the middle of Storm. Jaime is constantly calling himself a bad person in various ways after he lost his hand which he would have never done if he was refusing responsibility for his actions.

[Mister Smikes]

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Which is why Jaime makes sure he is perceived as a bad man in Feast?

Don't see your point.  I was merely remarking on the shallowness of his desire to be perceived as a better person.  If you are going to argue with me that he does not desire to be perceived as a better person at all, then fine.   If there is nothing there, there is no need for me to argue that it is shallow.  I'm saying these signs of redemption mean little, and you are saying they mean less.  

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Huh, feels like you stopped reading Jaime's chapters somewhere in the middle of Storm. Jaime is constantly calling himself a bad person in various ways after he lost his hand which he would have never done if he was refusing responsibility for his actions.

I'm not sure what you have in mind, but singing "I'm bad!" does not necessarily mean one is repentant and has a significant desire to change for the better.

[Arthur Peres]

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Huh, feels like you stopped reading Jaime's chapters somewhere in the middle of Storm. Jaime is constantly calling himself a bad person in various ways after he lost his hand which he would have never done if he was refusing responsibility for his actions.

No, I just give more weight to his actions than his self pity.

He keeps refusing resposability knowing that it will result in a bad outcome, like refusing become Hand and letting Cersei having free reing over the realm and over Tommen.

He keep breaking his words to Catelyn, by leading a army against her family lands, threatining her unborn nephew and ordering a hit on her uncle and taking her brother as a prisoner.

He keep his cynical behaviour mocking everyone that tries to change for the better, like he did with Lancel.

[Dofs]

55 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Don't see your point.  I was merely remarking on the shallowness of his desire to be perceived as a better person.  If you are going to argue with me that he does not desire to be perceived as a better person at all, then fine.   If there is nothing there, there is no need for me to argue that it is shallow.  I'm saying these signs of redemption mean little, and you are saying they mean less.  

My point is that he does not actively try to make sure he is perceived as a better person and does not engineer his behaviour to achieve this goal. His desire to be perceived better doesn't heavily influence what he does. If it did, I would agree that his actions and redemption are shallow but as it's not the case, then such desire becomes only natural. 99% of people probably wouldn't enjoy to have a reputation of being a major douchebag. I certainly wouldn't. Neither does Jaime. Would you?

55 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not sure what you have in mind, but singing "I'm bad!" does not necessarily mean one is repentant and has a significant desire to change for the better.

It doesn't necessarily mean that but the poster I've replied to is claiming that the song "I'm bad" doesn't even exist which is pretty blatantly wrong.

[LynnS]

I sincerely hope that Jaime doesn't remain a soiled or smiling knight and Martin has something better in store for his character.  It will be a far more interesting for me if Brienne's story of the Just Maid and the Perfect Knight are played out through their characters.  I think there are some changes in that direction.

[Nathan Stark]

I'm not especially interested in Jaime's words, or his self pity in Storm. I'm more compelled by his actions after losing his hand. He chooses to return to Harrenhal, and jumps into a pit and faces off against a bear to save Brienne. He  sends Brienne off on a quest to find Sansa and honor their oaths to Catelyn. He upholds his oath to Catelyn to not shed Tully blood, though he threatens to do so in order to make Edmure give up Riverun. He advises helping the smallfolk of the Riverlands as a way to fight the BwB, using Arthur Dayne as an example to follow. Jaime is making active choices to do good and be honorable. He sees his empty page in the White Book of the Kingsgaurd as a challenge to do better deeds, to choose a better path for himself. Jaime is a morally ambiguous character, like everybody else in this series. But his actions in Storm and Feast show that his desire to become a better version of himself is not shallow. He has started to make choices that put that desire into action.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm not especially interested in Jaime's words, or his self pity in Storm. I'm more compelled by his actions after losing his hand. He chooses to return to Harrenhal, and jumps into a pit and faces off against a bear to save Brienne. He  sends Brienne off on a quest to find Sansa and honor their oaths to Catelyn. He upholds his oath to Catelyn to not shed Tully blood, though he threatens to do so in order to make Edmure give up Riverun. He advises helping the smallfolk of the Riverlands as a way to fight the BwB, using Arthur Dayne as an example to follow. Jaime is making active choices to do good and be honorable. He sees his empty page in the White Book of the Kingsgaurd as a challenge to do better deeds, to choose a better path for himself. Jaime is a morally ambiguous character, like everybody else in this series. But his actions in Storm and Feast show that his desire to become a better version of himself is not shallow. He has started to make choices that put that desire into action.

That's what I see happening as well.  Including his growing respect for Brienne and treating her with honor.  As she says she is the keeper of his honor and must not fail him.  Primarily because he has divulged what Aerys was going to do with wildfire.  

It would be a crummy story if he just remains a crappy character.  I'm hoping for something better.

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

My point is that he does not actively try to make sure he is perceived as a better person and does not engineer his behaviour to achieve this goal. His desire to be perceived better doesn't heavily influence what he does. If it did, I would agree that his actions and redemption are shallow but as it's not the case, then such desire becomes only natural. 99% of people probably wouldn't enjoy to have a reputation of being a major douchebag. I certainly wouldn't. Neither does Jaime. Would you?

I think there are signs that Jaime cares what others think.  I would also tend to agree that he is usually too proud to act on it in any obvious way.

But never mind.  I think we agree that Jaime's failure to give any fucks (to whatever extent) is not evidence of anything, one way or the other.  And his caring what others think of him (to the extent he does) does not prove anything either way either.

So do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?  Because I don't see it.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

So do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?  Because I don't see it.

Looking at Jaime through Brienne's eyes:

Radio Westeros E13 - Brienne of Tarth - YouTube

[Mister Smikes]

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He chooses to return to Harrenhal, and jumps into a pit and faces off against a bear to save Brienne.

That was kind of awesome.  On the other hand, he is a man of action, and such feats are fairly consistent with his character.  Note that he was also prepared to leave her to die, and changed his mind after the weirwood dream.  The logic behind his change of heart is a bit unclear.  I can't take it as a given that he was necessarily driven by moral considerations.

It certainly looked awesome from Brienne's POV, which might have plot relevance for her developing feelings for him.

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He  sends Brienne off on a quest to find Sansa and honor their oaths to Catelyn.

Not a huge sacrifice, so far.  He basically delegates his honor to another and washes his hands of it.  But okay.  It is a nice token gesture.  He is not a complete monster.  GRRM is saving that for zombie Jaime.

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He upholds his oath to Catelyn to not shed Tully blood, though he threatens to do so in order to make Edmure give up Riverun.

Hmmf.  I dunno if this example helps or hurts.  What next?  Will he honor his oath by drowning them and hanging them and burning them alive?  Or maybe human Jaime would not go that far, but zombie Jaime will  I am thinking of GRRM's quote about how fire wights are driven by their oaths but lose a portion of their humanity.

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He advises helping the smallfolk of the Riverlands as a way to fight the BwB, using Arthur Dayne as an example to follow.

Strictly as a means to an end.  He does not value the smallfolk for their own sake.  His aristocratic contempt for them becomes clear in his encounter with Lancel.

 

[Apoplexy]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:16 PM, Mister Smikes said:

You just changed the subject.  We were not talking about intent as it exists in the penal law, but about something else entirely.

But since, you bring it up, Jaime was definitely guilty of the crime of attempted murder, including the element of intent to kill, when he pushed Bran out the window.

So how do you mean when you bring up intent. And again, I've never said he wasn't gulity.

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:16 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Depends.  Men have been known to walk away from a toxic relationship, grab a gun, return, murder wife, murder kids, and then finally murder self. 

Which Jaime didn't do, so it's a moot point.

On 12/29/2021 at 11:16 PM, Mister Smikes said:

This is a false dichotomy.  The fact that Cersei is evil, does not make Jaime good.  And he does not hate her for her wicked crimes.  He hates her because he found out she does not love him as well or as faithfully as he (falsely) imagines he deserves.

We disagree. I think Jaime isn't good just compared to Cersei, overall he is inherently good.

[Apoplexy]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:25 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I was not conflating them at all.  I thought I made it clear I did not want to talk about "narcissistic personality disorder"

Neither do I and I wasn't there.

On 12/29/2021 at 11:25 PM, Mister Smikes said:

He is motivated, to a significant extent, by pride and self-love.   That may not be the whole truth, but it is a big part of it.

Nor am I saying that he has never shown an act of kindness, nor that it will be impossible for him to choose to be better.  I'm not ruling out redemption for him.  I don't think he will be redeemed, but that's just my guess as to where the story is headed.  I've seen few signs of redemption so far (except maybe a handful of moments with Brienne).

We disagree.

[Apoplexy]

On 12/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, Arthur Peres said:

He is a selfish and selfserving manchild that refuses to take responsabilty.

Except he takes responsibility for everything.

On 12/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime joined the KG not because he wanted to be a hero, or because he admired the KG, or because he saw as his duty to serve the king... he did because he wanted to fuck his sister, he swore a vow of celibate in order to keep sleeping with his sister... from the get go he already is selfserving and broking a oath he made, before it even comes into a dilema. The whole keep one vow to break the other does not work when from the starting point he already intended to break them.

Why is it a bad thing to join the KG to stay close to the person he loved? 

He was manipulated into taking that decision of course by Cesie, but what's self serving about it?

On 12/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Now he keeps blaming Cersei, or the KG, or Ned Stark, everything but himself for the choices he made "It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around." is a fine example of him refusing responsability for his actions, and blaming anyone and anything but himself.

He was referring to being reviled for killing a king who was going to blow up an entire city. And he is right in blaming the KG there. He was blaming the expectation of blind loyalty in the KG.

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Except he takes responsibility for everything.

Yeah, I don't know what you even mean by that.  It certainly does not signify repentance.  

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Why is it a bad thing to join the KG to stay close to the person he loved? 

Why is it a bad thing to take an oath of celibacy and loyalty to your king, knowing that you intend to break it by committing incest, adultery and treason, risking civil war, and depriving him of a proper heir?  Dunno, man.   Is it something you would have done in his place?

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He was manipulated into taking that decision of course by Cesie, but what's self serving about it?

It takes two to tango.  And he was more-than-capable of walking away from the relationship when he realized that Cersei was having sex with other men.   Before that, he was a willing part of a treasonous conspiracy, because he thought there was something in it for him.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He was referring to being reviled for killing a king who was going to blow up an entire city.

Nonsense.  He was reviled for killing the king, sitting his proud leonine ass on the throne, and trying to stare down anyone who might dare to suggest his proud lion ass could not just take what it pleased.  Ned Stark outstared him.

The wildfire plot is irrelevant to what he was reviled for because he never told anyone about it.  And the reason he did not tell anyone was because he was offended by the suggestion that his proud leonine ass could not just do whatever it wanted and take whatever it pleased.  The lion does not explain himself to the wolf, and certainly not to the mice.  And of course the stag is only its rightful prey.

The wildfire plot story is not even over yet.  That ticking time bomb is still going to go off, because Jaime never did enough to stop it.  His proud leonine ass just killed a few people, which is something his proud leonine ass likes to do anyway.  He only delayed the tragedy.  Because the lion does not concern itself unduly with the lives of 1000s of irrelevant mice.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And he is right in blaming the KG there. He was blaming the expectation of blind loyalty in the KG.

What expectation of "blind" loyalty?  The issue of how "blind" the loyalty should have been never came up because Jaime decided he owed no-one any explanations.  The issue was whether he owed ANY loyalty.

[Apoplexy]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yeah, I don't know what you even mean by that.  It certainly does not signify repentance.

I was taking about joining the KG. He refused to leave when tywin wanted to have him dismissed, so i'd say he tries to take responsibilty.

9 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Why is it a bad thing to take an oath of celibacy and loyalty to your king, knowing that you intend to break it by committing incest, adultery and treason, risking civil war, and depriving him of a proper heir?  Dunno, man.   Is it something you would have done in his place?

That's my point. He certainly made some terrible decisions, but it wasn't malicious. It was because he loved cersei. What I would do is irrelevant to the discussion.

13 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

It takes two to tango.  And he was more-than-capable of walking away from the relationship when he realized that Cersei was having sex with other men.

It takes one to manipulate. And that's the point, he finally realized he was being manipulated when found out cersei was sleeping with other men. That's how he walked away.

 

15 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nonsense.  He was reviled for killing the king, sitting his proud leonine ass on the throne, and trying to stare down anyone who might dare to suggest his proud lion ass could not just take what it pleased.  Ned Stark outstared him.

The wildfire plot is irrelevant to what he was reviled for because he never told anyone about it.  And the reason he did not tell anyone was because he was offended by the suggestion that his proud leonine ass could not just do whatever it wanted and take whatever it pleased.  The lion does not explain himself to the wolf, and certainly not to the mice.  And of course the stag is only its rightful prey.

The wildfire plot story is not even over yet.  That ticking time bomb is still going to go off, because Jaime never did enough to stop it.  His proud leonine ass just killed a few people, which is something his proud leonine ass likes to do anyway.  He only delayed the tragedy.  Because the lion does not concern itself unduly with the lives of 1000s of irrelevant mice.

We disagree about the interpretation of spoken words.

17 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

What expectation of "blind" loyalty?  The issue of how "blind" the loyalty should have been never came up because Jaime decided he owed no-one any explanations.  The issue was whether he owed ANY loyalty.

It did come up. Jaime thought it was wrong to nothing when Aerys repeated assaulted and raped Rhaella.

[Nathan Stark]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:52 PM, Mister Smikes said:

That was kind of awesome.  On the other hand, he is a man of action, and such feats are fairly consistent with his character.  Note that he was also prepared to leave her to die, and changed his mind after the weirwood dream.  The logic behind his change of heart is a bit unclear.  I can't take it as a given that he was necessarily driven by moral considerations.

It certainly looked awesome from Brienne's POV, which might have plot relevance for her developing feelings for him.

There isn't any logic to be found in Jaime's decision to turn back for Brienne. Even he can't put a finger on it. To me it seems like Jaime just got used to Brienne and it felt wrong not having her around. So he went back. Maybe there is a supernatural element here if the wierwood stump is resonsible for his dream, but if so, it's left ambiguous. Ultimately, Jaime chose to go back. The choice is what is important.

On 12/31/2021 at 8:52 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Not a huge sacrifice, so far.  He basically delegates his honor to another and washes his hands of it.  But okay.  It is a nice token gesture.  He is not a complete monster.  GRRM is saving that for zombie Jaime.

A token gesture can be a step in the right direction. But zombie Jaime isn't happening.

On 12/31/2021 at 8:52 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Hmmf.  I dunno if this example helps or hurts.  What next?  Will he honor his oath by drowning them and hanging them and burning them alive?  Or maybe human Jaime would not go that far, but zombie Jaime will  I am thinking of GRRM's quote about how fire wights are driven by their oaths but lose a portion of their humanity.

No, Jaime wouldn't go through on such threats, had he made them, which he did not. He threatened to kill Edmure's baby with a trebuchet, knowing it would make Edmure compliant. I think you know, as well as I do, that Jaime's oath not to shed Tully or Stark blood means not killing them at all. If he drowned or burned Edmure or any other Tully, Jaime would be breaking his oath. An oath that he remembered on more than one occasion and intended to follow through on.

Zombie Jaime also will not do these things because, again, zombie Jaime isn't happening.

On 12/31/2021 at 8:52 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Strictly as a means to an end.  He does not value the smallfolk for their own sake.  His aristocratic contempt for them becomes clear in his encounter with Lancel.

No more than Arthur Dayne did. Having aristocratic contempt towards smallfolk doesn't mean very much in the end. Jaime still sees the value in treating them well. 

We have seen Jaime make an effort to be a better man. He still has a ways to go, of course. But his efforts thus far indicate that his intent isn't shallow.

[Mister Smikes]

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I was taking about joining the KG. He refused to leave when tywin wanted to have him dismissed, so i'd say he tries to take responsibilty.

He wanted to boink Cersei, who he had no right to.  This was more important to him than Casterly Rock, which he actually had a right to.

And okay, sure -- maybe there was also an element of youthful idealism in his original decision to join the Kingsguard.  If there were no potential for goodness, then his mother (The Mother?) would have had no cause to be disappointed in what he has later become.  

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

That's my point. He certainly made some terrible decisions, but it wasn't malicious. It was because he loved cersei.

Malice is when you do something you know is wrong.  Doing it for love and/or desire is merely a question of motive.  

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

It takes one to manipulate. And that's the point, he finally realized he was being manipulated when found out cersei was sleeping with other men. That's how he walked away.

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

 

It did come up. Jaime thought it was wrong to nothing when Aerys repeated assaulted and raped Rhaella.

That did not stop him from doing nothing.  

[Apoplexy]

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He wanted to boink Cersei, who he had no right to.  This was more important to him than Casterly Rock, which he actually had a right to.

And okay, sure -- maybe there was also an element of youthful idealism in his original decision to join the Kingsguard.  If there were no potential for goodness, then his mother (The Mother?) would have had no cause to be disappointed in what he has later become.

The morality/rightness of Jaime and cersei having a sexual relationship is besides the point for this discussion. And joining the KG was not Jaime's idea, it was cersei's. He joined because he loved cersei. This is the whole point to Jaime's character, the things he does for love. And that he takes responsibility for his actions, right and wrong.

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Malice is when you do something you know is wrong.  Doing it for love and/or desire is merely a question of motive.  

I agree. And its a better motive than malice and cruelty for the sake for being malicious and cruel.

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That did not stop him from doing nothing.  

It was his LC barristan that told him it's not his job to protect the queen from the king. And he regrets not doing anything. The larger point here is this was one of the reasons Jaime says the white cloak soiled him.

An the even larger point is that it is indicative of Jaime being sincere in wanting to be remembered as 'goldenhand the just'. He had always wanted to be honorable, and his arc is moving him in that direction.

[Dofs]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:27 AM, Mister Smikes said:

I think there are signs that Jaime cares what others think.

He absolutely does, but as we agreed, it's not an indication of anything.

On 1/1/2022 at 12:27 AM, Mister Smikes said:

So do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?  Because I don't see it.

Better person than he was in a Game of Thrones? Absolutely. Let's take a few examples that were already mentioned in the thread:

On 1/1/2022 at 1:52 AM, Mister Smikes said:

That was kind of awesome.  On the other hand, he is a man of action, and such feats are fairly consistent with his character.  Note that he was also prepared to leave her to die, and changed his mind after the weirwood dream.  The logic behind his change of heart is a bit unclear.  I can't take it as a given that he was necessarily driven by moral considerations.

The reason he changed his mind was because he lost his fight with his conscience. Over the last decade or so he became very good at silencing and dismissing it, to the point he didn't even recognize it when it called to him (like how he was explaining his urge to return Cat's daughters before he lost his hand). He has built a wall around his heart back then, but as Jaime himself mentions, his walls were gone when he got maimed and he was no longer able to contain his conscience and guilt. When he was thinking that he should leave Brienne to Brave Companions, it was his last attempt to fight it, he was trying to convince himself that what he was doing was fine, but that all led to that dream where his conscience and guilt ate him alive and he woke up a loser of his fight. At that point he just gave in to his conscience and instinct and desperately rushed back to Brienne as fast as he could with only thought on his mind - that he has to save her no matter what.

Jaime back in a Game of Thrones wouldn't have lost this fight.

On 1/1/2022 at 1:52 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Not a huge sacrifice, so far.  He basically delegates his honor to another and washes his hands of it.  But okay.  It is a nice token gesture.  He is not a complete monster.  GRRM is saving that for zombie Jaime.

The big point that is missed here is that one of the reasons he specifically entrusted Brienne with the task of finding Sansa was that he knew that she wouldn't give her up to Cersei. Jaime was acting against the interests of his House and, most importantly, his sister's. There is absolutely no way a Game of Thrones Jaime would have gone against his sister like that.

On 1/1/2022 at 1:52 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Hmmf.  I dunno if this example helps or hurts.  What next?  Will he honor his oath by drowning them and hanging them and burning them alive?

Jaime went out of his way to find a bloodless solution to the siege. A Game of Thrones Jaime wouldn't even think about it.

These are some of the examples how Jaime in a Storm of Swords became a better person than he was in a Game of Thrones.