Will Jaime become a "True Knight", or the Smiling Knight?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 12/28/2021 at 5:24 PM, Egged said:

But he rejects every opportunity handed to him to be seen as a hero. He is training with Ilyn, so maybe he just doubts his capacity to fight currently, but Ami was asking him to help and he claims his place is by the king to walk away from it. I wonder if it's just a fear of losing in a fight.

Gatehouse Ami was asking Jaime to stay and have an affair with her, and Jaime knew that.  

[Mister Smikes]

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

The reason he changed his mind was because he lost his fight with his conscience.

Maybe.  It's a theory.  Maybe a plausible one.  But he never explains in his own thoughts the logic behind his change of mind.  And I see nothing, in the Weirwood dream that prompted him, any appeal to morality.  Maybe he just figured he would need an ally when Ned Stark's ghost came after him.

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

The big point that is missed here is that one of the reasons he specifically entrusted Brienne with the task of finding Sansa was that he knew that she wouldn't give her up to Cersei.

I'm not saying Brienne was not a good choice.  I'm saying he's not making much of a sacrifice.

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime was acting against the interests of his House and, most importantly, his sister's. 

He's angry at Cersei for reasons that have nothing to do with any moral improvement on his own part.

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime went out of his way to find a bloodless solution to the siege. A Game of Thrones Jaime wouldn't even think about it.

He broke the spirit of his oath by hiding behind a technicality.  

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

These are some of the examples how Jaime in a Storm of Swords became a better person than he was in a Game of Thrones.

And these examples also perfectly explain why I am unimpressed.

They are not completely meaningless.  But then again, I expect zombie Jaime to be even worse, so there has to be room for him to become less human.

[Dofs]

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And I see nothing, in the Weirwood dream that prompted him, any appeal to morality.

Huh? Did you miss all the guilt the dream was about?

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not saying Brienne was not a good choice.  I'm saying he's not making much of a sacrifice.

What do sacrifices have anything to do with here? I am answering to your question "so do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?" here.

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He's angry at Cersei for reasons that have nothing to do with any moral improvement on his own part.

For what reasons is he angry at Cersei here? And are you implying here that he is sending Brienne to save Sansa out of spite to his sister?

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He broke the spirit of his oath by hiding behind a technicality.  

I think you are missing something here. You asked: "so do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?"

I answered:

"Jaime went out of his way to find a bloodless solution to the siege. A Game of Thrones Jaime wouldn't even think about it."

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

And these examples also perfectly explain why I am unimpressed.

I am not sure you even addressed them in the context of your question to me. I repeat, your question is "so do you think Jaime is becoming a better person?  If so, why?" and to answer this question we need to compare "before" with "after".

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

They are not completely meaningless.  But then again, I expect zombie Jaime to be even worse, so there has to be room for him to become less human.

I believe zombie Jaime is going to be more concerned with zombie Catelyn and their budding romance than anything.

 

[Mister Smikes]

21 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And that he takes responsibility for his actions, right and wrong.

You keep saying this.  But what does it even mean?  What possible difference does it make to me if my murderer, with a proud grin, says " I take responsibility for my actions", while he is murdering me?

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

Huh? Did you miss all the guilt the dream was about?

Sounds like a theory.  I see no evidence, from Jaime's POV, that Jaime sees it that way.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

What do sacrifices have anything to do with here?

Well, by analogy, if I commit a murder on Saturday, because 10 million dollars are at stake; and I decline to commit a murder on Sunday, where only $10 are at stake, I am not making much of a sacrifice.  It is nice, to be sure, that I failed to commit the second murder, but it is not compelling evidence that I have become a better person.  I'm only giving up $10.00.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

For what reasons is he angry at Cersei here? And are you implying here that he is sending Brienne to save Sansa out of spite to his sister?

No.  I think that, all other factors being equal, and there being little temptation to do otherwise, he would rather keep his oaths.  I'm merely saying he is not making much of a sacrifice.  He already wants to turn against Cersei for selfish reasons of his own.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

I am not sure you even addressed them in the context of your question to me. I repeat, your question is "so do you think Jaime is becoming a better person? 

I'm just explaining why I don't find your reasons compelling.  That's all.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

I believe zombie Jaime is going to be more concerned with zombie Catelyn and their budding romance than anything.

GRRM said in an SSM that zombies like UnBeric are driven by their oaths.  So if Jaime has become a red wight, his various oaths, and his twisted zombie interpretation of them, will probably become important.

[Dofs]

46 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Sounds like a theory.  I see no evidence, from Jaime's POV, that Jaime sees it that way.

It's not a theory, the scene in the dream between him and the Kingsguard with Rhaegar is pretty clear.

Anyway, it's besides the point. I've explained to you why Jaime went back to Brienne. If you don't want to neither accept it, nor come up with your own interpretation, I can't do anything about it. The point is, would a Game of Thrones Jaime come back for Brienne? No.

46 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, by analogy, if I commit a murder on Saturday, because 10 million dollars are at stake; and I decline to commit a murder on Sunday, where only $10 are at stake, I am not making much of a sacrifice.  It is nice, to be sure, that I failed to commit the second murder, but it is not compelling evidence that I have become a better person.  I'm only giving up $10.00.

A Jaime from Saturday would have committed murder on Sunday for $10 too. This what you are missing in what I am telling to you. The sacrifice is irrelevant here. The question is, did Jaime become a better person? Hence we need to compare "before" and "after". Would Jaime from a Game of Throne try to save a Stark daughter from his sister? The answer is a flat no. But he does that in Storm. Is it a change? Yes. Is it a change for better? Also yes. Hence Jaime has become a better person. It's that simple.

46 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

He already wants to turn against Cersei for selfish reasons of his own.

Wait, he wants to do what again? To turn against Cersei? In Storm? Before even Tyrion told him anything? What are you even talking about here?

46 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm just explaining why I don't find your reasons compelling.  That's all.

And I am telling you that your explanations don't match the question we are discussing. I'll repeat, the question is "did Jaime become a better person?" and you are only talking about why you don't think Jaime is a good person still. But these are two different things. You don't believe he is, sure, but why do you believe he is still the same as he was in Game? You are not explaining any of that.

46 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

GRRM said in an SSM that zombies like UnBeric are driven by their oaths.  So if Jaime has become a red wight, his various oaths, and his twisted zombie interpretation of them, will probably become important.

I think it's silly to miss the obvious clues, like the whole Jaime's and Cat's dialogue in Clash, or Jaime's obsession with the oath he gave to her, that show that the zombie Jaime and zombie Cat romance is the endgame for the entire series.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Anyway, it's besides the point. I've explained to you why Jaime went back to Brienne. If you don't want to neither accept it, nor come up with your own interpretation, I can't do anything about it.

I thought I already indicated my interpretation:  Jaime feels the ghostly karma cops are after him, and is inspired by the dream with the idea that Brienne may help him defeat or escape the ghostly karma cops.

Fear of the police may have a vague association with guilt.  But the selfish desire to defeat them or escape from them is not compelling evidence of reformation or repentance.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The point is, would a Game of Thrones Jaime come back for Brienne? No.

The pre-weirwood dream Jaime would not have gone back either.  But that begs the question of what it was about the weirwood dream that caused him to change his mind.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

A Jaime from Saturday would have committed murder on Sunday for $10 too.

I disagree.  The main difference for GOT Jaime is that we don't have access to his inner thoughts.  So we focus on his actions as seen by the Starks, et al., which are crimes, especially from the Stark POV.

When GOT Jaime says to Cersei: "the things I do for love", he is saying, "this murder is distasteful to me, but I'm going to do it anyway because you are worth THAT much to me".  He would not have done it for $10.00.  

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

This what you are missing in what I am telling to you. The sacrifice is irrelevant here.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.  Moral ideals are not very relevant if you only obey them when it does not cost you much.  Sacrifice is critical.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Would Jaime from a Game of Throne try to save a Stark daughter from his sister?

Would he honor a wartime trade?  Maybe.  Why not?  There are obvious reasons, even from a selfish perspective, why one should occasionally keep one's word.  And GOT Jaime has a certain loyalty, not merely to Cersei, but also to Tyrion.  He does not want Tyrion convicted.  He does not want Tyrion's wife caught.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The answer is a flat no.

No.  That's just YOUR flat answer.  

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Wait, he wants to do what again? To turn against Cersei? In Storm? Before even Tyrion told him anything? What are you even talking about here?

Fair enough.  I was associating Jaime's assignment to Brienne with the later FEAST chapters.

Of course, the relationship was starting to show tension before Tyrion's revelations.  But not, I think for any reasons that show that Jaime is becoming a better person.  Because, again, Jaime has always had a certain loyalty to Tyrion.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

And I am telling you that your explanations don't match the question we are discussing. I'll repeat, the question is "did Jaime become a better person?" and you are only talking about why you don't think Jaime is a good person still. But these are two different things.

Not that I can see.  You seem to be assuming that Jaime was an absolute demon before, merely because we don't have actual access to his POV.  I don't think that was the case at all.  

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

You don't believe he is, sure, but why do you believe he is still the same as he was in Game?

I don't believe he is the same.  I think he has one less hand, for one thing.  And I think he is now hates Cersei, who he used to love.  He has different priorities and different motives.  

I just don't see compelling evidence of moral improvement.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

I think it's silly to miss the obvious clues, like the whole Jaime's and Cat's dialogue in Clash, or Jaime's obsession with the oath he gave to her, that show that the zombie Jaime and zombie Cat romance is the endgame for the entire series.

Red wights are dead.  They lose their humanity, and retain at most a shadow of that humanity.  They will not be having any romantic relationships; or at least, they will not be developing any new ones.

But they may have shadows of their old humanity.  zombie Brienne may kiss Jaime (kiss of fire) after she kills him.  And zombie Jaime may do the same to Cersei.

[Dofs]

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I thought I already indicated my interpretation:  Jaime feels the ghostly karma cops are after him, and is inspired by the dream with the idea that Brienne may help him defeat or escape the ghostly karma cops.

Fear of the police may have a vague association with guilt.  But the selfish desire to defeat them or escape from them is not compelling evidence of reformation or repentance.

Wait, so you don't buy a "theory" that it was Jaime's conscience and guilt causing him to return because Jaime specifically doesn't think about it (though acts like it), but at the same time you think that he is afraid of a ghost police, something that Jaime also never thinks about and and no point indicates that he even believes in such a thing in the first place? It's perfectly plausible for Jaime to not specifically spell out his emotions, like conscience, in his thoughts but I definitely don't buy the idea that he could be afraid of a 'ghost police' and never even think about them or not bring the dream up ever again.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

The pre-weirwood dream Jaime would not have gone back either.  But that begs the question of what it was about the weirwood dream that caused him to change his mind.

A Game of Thrones Jaime is also a pre-weirwood dream Jaime.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I disagree.  The main difference for GOT Jaime is that we don't have access to his inner thoughts.  So we focus on his actions as seen by the Starks, et al., which are crimes, especially from the Stark POV.

We can see a glimpse of aGoT Jaime in his first three chapters and from his flashbacks. 

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

When GOT Jaime says to Cersei: "the things I do for love", he is saying, "this murder is distasteful to me, but I'm going to do it anyway because you are worth THAT much to me".  He would not have done it for $10.00.  

What do you mean "he would not have done it for $10.00"? Don't overuse your metaphor to the point it doesn't make sense anymore. We are talking about whether he would have sent Brienne to save Sansa from Cersei in aGoT, not if he would have done something for $10.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.  Moral ideals are not very relevant if you only obey them when it does not cost you much.  Sacrifice is critical.

If a person is a thief but then stops being one, he becomes a better person. What is a sacrifice here?

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Would he honor a wartime trade?  Maybe.  Why not?

Against his sister's wishes? Of course not.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He does not want Tyrion's wife caught.

Jaime thinks the "wife" killed Joffrey, a crime for which Tyrion was about to be executed. He also understands that the wife was nothing more than a political prisoner that was forced to marry Tyrion relatively recently. And hence he never considers Tyrion in his motivation to save her. His says his motivation very clearly: to keep his oath to Catelyn and that Sansa Stark is his last chance for honour. Nothing to do with Tyrion.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  That's just YOUR flat answer.

It is indeed my answer and I am absolutely sure in it.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Of course, the relationship was starting to show tension before Tyrion's revelations.  But not, I think for any reasons that show that Jaime is becoming a better person.  Because, again, Jaime has always had a certain loyalty to Tyrion.

The reason why the tension began is connected to why he decided to protect Sansa from Cersei - Jaime stopped being her yes-man and started following his heart.

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not that I can see.  You seem to be assuming that Jaime was an absolute demon before, merely because we don't have actual access to his POV.  I don't think that was the case at all.  

I don't think Jaime was a demon before, in fact, I consider him to have been always an inherently good person, even better than Tyrion. But in aGoT he just wasn't in a good mental state. He was still suffering from PTSD, felt ostracized and hence angry at the entire world, fallen into nihilism, devoted himself to make Cersei happy no matter what, silenced his conscience to do so, started to parrot her and even in the end started to believe himself that he was a honourless bastard. Of course getting an access to his POV showed a very different side to him than what was portrayed before but he also underwent a significant character arc. There is a reason why Jaime now compares himself with Smiling Knight, who in turn he calls to be the Mountain of previous generation. So Jaime now literally sees the Mountain in himself and there is a reason why (Jaime is being too harsh with himself with that comparison, in my opinion, but the point still stands).

5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Red wights are dead.  They lose their humanity, and retain at most a shadow of that humanity.  They will not be having any romantic relationships; or at least, they will not be developing any new ones.

But they may have shadows of their old humanity.  zombie Brienne may kiss Jaime (kiss of fire) after she kills him.  And zombie Jaime may do the same to Cersei.

Lady Stoneheart feels hate. If you can feel hate, you can feel love. Jaime has already indicated that Catelyn has caught his eye before and Catelyn mentioned multiple times before how beautiful Jaime was. So they aren't going to develop anything new. The zombie Jaime x zombie Catelyn pairing is coming and it's going to be the climax of the books. It's silly to argue otherwise.

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Wait, so you don't buy a "theory" that it was Jaime's conscience and guilt causing him to return because Jaime specifically doesn't think about it (though acts like it),

He does not "act like it".  I am aware of no evidence that the dream was fueled by guilt, nor that it makes him feel guilty.  Maybe he does feel guilty, but that's only a theory.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

but at the same time you think that he is afraid of a ghost police, something that Jaime also never thinks about and and no point indicates that he even believes in such a thing in the first place?

They are both theories.  Neither explanation is in the text.  And both explanations could be wrong.  The truth might be something that neither of us has thought of.  j

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

It's perfectly plausible for Jaime to not specifically spell out his emotions, like conscience, in his thoughts but I definitely don't buy the idea that he could be afraid of a 'ghost police' and never even think about them or not bring the dream up ever again.

There's no point in being too rational about a person's reaction to a dream.

 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

What do you mean "he would not have done it for $10.00"? Don't overuse your metaphor to the point it doesn't make sense anymore. We are talking about whether he would have sent Brienne to save Sansa from Cersei in aGoT, not if he would have done something for $10.

Why are you arguing with me about nothing?  If you agree that Jaime would not have murdered Bran for $10.00, say so, and move on.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

If a person is a thief but then stops being one, he becomes a better person.

Not at all.  If a person stops stealing it may merely be that he has no particular need or desire to steal, due to changed circumstances

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

What is a sacrifice here?

Depends on what the consequences are of not stealing.  For instance, if one refrains from stealing a loaf of bread, the sacrifice is that you give up the loaf of bread, which may mean you have to endure hunger.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

I don't think Jaime was a demon before, in fact, I consider him to have been always an inherently good person,

Yes, in the end it always comes down to this.  Those who claim that Jaime is on a redemption arc never really 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

even better than Tyrion. 

Tyrion is a villain

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

.Lady Stoneheart feels hate. If you can feel hate, you can feel love. 

It is unclear if Stoneheart feels hate in any human sense of the word.  She (it) is mechanistically carrying out an oath and mission that was driven by human emotion once, when she was alive.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime has already indicated that Catelyn has caught his eye before and Catelyn mentioned multiple times before how beautiful Jaime was. So they aren't going to develop anything new. The zombie Jaime x zombie Catelyn pairing is coming and it's going the the climax of the books. It's silly to argue otherwise.

How hot will the zombie sex scenes be?

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/29/2021 at 10:47 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I am only referencing ancient myth, and have no interest in discussing the diagnostic criteria of mental illness as reflected in the DSM IV.  I think that Jaime is motivated by pride and self love, and considers the lives of lesser persons to be expendable to his whims.   Tyrion invokes the idea that Jaime's love for Cersei is a sort of self love -- analogous to admiring oneself in the mirror.  This is straight from the text, and recalls the myth of Narcissus.  

If he were motivated by pride and self love, he would probably want to remove the vast caches of wildfire from the city in which he currently lives and serves the new king, as self love is hard to do while burning to death because someone fell through a floor or a shelf rotted.

[norwaywolf123]

On 12/29/2021 at 4:56 AM, Apoplexy said:

I think LS wants to kill Jaime, she is unlikely to want him to go kill other people. I think Jaime either convinces LS he had nothing to do with the RW or manages to escape. If he does convince her, he could eventually manage to give Riverrun back to Edmure to try to make amends.

Does not Jaime also have obligations towards the rest of House Lannister and it's allies? He cannot just give it away for personal reasons. There needs to be a push factor for House Lannister to relinquish Riverrun. Jaime must justify his actions, unless he wants to make his kin and other Westermen distrust him.

1. Riverrun is taken from the House Lannister.
2. Edmure is relinquished on the condition that there will be a marriage between his heir. and someone connected to the Lannister family.
3. Edmure is released or handed over, as part of a agreement with a third party. Which House Lannister agrees to as they are put in a position that makes a surrender neccesary.

On 12/29/2021 at 4:23 AM, Apoplexy said:

I truly don't understand all the Jaime hate. He is far from perfect, but I don't get trying claim to everything he did was just evil or malicious.

I don't see jaime killing lancel. As he is moving away from cersei and now that Tywin is dead, Jaime seems to want to make better decisions. He has no pressure to try to please Tywin and he has decided to stop trying to please cersei. I have a feeling he will do something heroic during the long night.

How would Jaime be able to do something heroic during the long night? What might it be? Does it have to be actions of personal valor or could it be the creation of new political settlement?

On 12/29/2021 at 4:23 AM, Apoplexy said:

I think we have the Qhorin halfhand as a character to set up the possibility that Jaime will become proficient with his left hand. That is how he could end up being remembered as the 'true knight'.

Good point!

[norwaywolf123]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:42 PM, Arthur Peres said:

He keep breaking his words to Catelyn, by leading a army against her family lands, threatining her unborn nephew and ordering a hit on her uncle and taking her brother as a prisoner.

Jaime does not only have obligations towards Catelyn due to his promise. He also has obligations towards House Lannister, and the Westerlands. This is a central element of Jaime's story. In Jaime's position it is not easy to follow every vow, or even possible, because many of them contradict other vows.

Quote

"How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?"

 

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. "I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak."

 

"And the youngest to betray all it stood for, Kingslayer."

[norwaywolf123]

On 1/1/2022 at 8:10 PM, Apoplexy said:

I was taking about joining the KG. He refused to leave when tywin wanted to have him dismissed, so i'd say he tries to take responsibilty.

Or perhaps he is avoiding his duty as Tywin's heir. I imagine that is how Tywin sees it.

On 1/2/2022 at 8:36 AM, Nathan Stark said:

No, Jaime wouldn't go through on such threats, had he made them, which he did not. He threatened to kill Edmure's baby with a trebuchet, knowing it would make Edmure compliant. I think you know, as well as I do, that Jaime's oath not to shed Tully or Stark blood means not killing them at all. If he drowned or burned Edmure or any other Tully, Jaime would be breaking his oath. An oath that he remembered on more than one occasion and intended to follow through on.

Sometimes vows and obligations contradict each other. Jaime tried to do both, and his solution was not perfect.

On 1/2/2022 at 8:36 AM, Nathan Stark said:

A token gesture can be a step in the right direction. But zombie Jaime isn't happening..........Zombie Jaime also will not do these things because, again, zombie Jaime isn't happening.

If Jaime does not survive his encounter with Lady Stoneheart, then i hope he stays dead.

[Lord Lannister]

On 12/29/2021 at 9:53 AM, Mister Smikes said:

So yeah, he kind of is mooning around for a "romance" of sorts.  

Jaime definitely is a romantic, though he tries to hide it. I always looked at that scene as him tapping into some of his youthful idealism that had been tainted by his service to kings like Aerys, Robert and Joffrey and of course the in the aftermath of the shattered romance with Cersei that he put everything into that Cersei never met him halfway on. 

I just took the scene to mean he was thinking he can still do some good despite it all and be something of the heroic knight he wanted to be as a boy.

[Dofs]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

He does not "act like it".  I am aware of no evidence that the dream was fueled by guilt, nor that it makes him feel guilty.  Maybe he does feel guilty, but that's only a theory.

He absolutely was, even you want to give another explanation to his act.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

They are both theories.  Neither explanation is in the text.  And both explanations could be wrong.  The truth might be something that neither of us has thought of. 

Well, you speak about it as if it's going to be revealed later. The dream is a turning point in Jaime's arc that makes Jaime's go back to save Brienne, this is the conclusion of his character heel-face turn that George has been extensively writing about since the beginning of the book. And understanding why Jaime went back for Brienne is required to understand Jaime's character. You cannot say "I don't know, I just have a theory" and then try to analyse Jaime's character as you'll be mssing a huge piece.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

There's no point in being too rational about a person's reaction to a dream.

This makes no sense. A dream is not a rational thing but a reaction to it is. Because if Jaime believes in a ghost police, then he has to think about it, it's not going to be just a raw emotion, it's becoming an entire motivation for Jaime going back - that he has to save himself, not Brienne. This motivation would also continue to drive his actions afterwards, as surely he would remain scared of such police after he saves Brienne too. They weren't talking about her in the first place anyway, were they? But he never thinks about them at all, and at no point in the books is presented the idea that he would even believe in one in the first place. This whole idea is literally you inventing something out of thin air. We have been in Jaime's head for 12 chapters after the dream. There is nothing about any fear of ghosts in there, or even that Jaime takes any of his dreams seriously.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Why are you arguing with me about nothing?  If you agree that Jaime would not have murdered Bran for $10.00, say so, and move on.

Well, yeah, I assumed that you took $10 to be equivalent to going against Cersei for the sake of a Stark. I guess I was wrong and it was nothing more than a random irrelevant stream of thoughts. I am sorry for even taking it seriously.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Not at all.  If a person stops stealing it may merely be that he has no particular need or desire to steal, due to changed circumstances

But what if he just decided that stealing is wrong?

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Depends on what the consequences are of not stealing.  For instance, if one refrains from stealing a loaf of bread, the sacrifice is that you give up the loaf of bread, which may mean you have to endure hunger.

Consider the following example - a person decides not to steal because he decided it's a wrong thing to do and he won't do it anymore. There is no sacrifice that he made. Did he not become a better person?

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Yes, in the end it always comes down to this.  Those who claim that Jaime is on a redemption arc never really 

Never really what?

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

It is unclear if Stoneheart feels hate in any human sense of the word.  She (it) is mechanistically carrying out an oath and mission that was driven by human emotion once, when she was alive.

She must feel hate in a human sense, because otherwise she wouldn't be going to feel love for zombie Jaime.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 AM, Mister Smikes said:

How hot will the zombie sex scenes be?

Yeah, I am waiting for a decade for it already.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

He absolutely was, even you want to give another explanation to his act.

Because you say so I guess.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Well, you speak about it as if it's going to be revealed later.

No, I speak about it as if we don't know.  You're the one who wants to argue from ignorance.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The dream is a turning point in Jaime's arc that makes Jaime's go back to save Brienne, this is the conclusion of his character heel-face turn that George has been extensively writing about since the beginning of the book. And understanding why Jaime went back for Brienne is required to understand Jaime's character.

The text does not actually say that, though

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

You cannot say "I don't know, I just have a theory" and then try to analyse Jaime's character as you'll be mssing a huge piece.

Yes I can.  Your absolute certainty to the contrary does not bother me, because you are not GRRM.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

This makes no sense. A dream is not a rational thing but a reaction to it is.

Nothing has to be "rational".  After the dream, Jaime (perhaps) feels more kindly toward Brienne.  This kindly feeling is inspired by the dream, in which he and Brienne are allies against a common foe.  He then acts on his feelings, perhaps without thinking much about them.

None of which necessarily implies guilt or repentance.  Which I'm not necessarily ruling out either.  It's just that the text never documents such a though process.  And later, Jaime makes clear to Lancel that he has no interest in repentance.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Because if Jaime believes in a ghost police, then he has to think about it, it's not going to be just a raw emotion, it's becoming an entire motivation for Jaime going back - that he has to save himself, not Brienne. This motivation would also continue to drive his actions afterwards, as surely he would remain scared of such police after he saves Brienne too.

Says who?  The dream is less likely to influence his conduct if it was weeks ago, rather than something he just woke up from.  You are WAY overthinking this, while ironically accusing me of being too "rational" about Jaime's sudden impulsive reaction to a dream vision.

[Apoplexy]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:03 AM, Mister Smikes said:

You keep saying this.  But what does it even mean?  What possible difference does it make to me if my murderer, with a proud grin, says " I take responsibility for my actions", while he is murdering me?

Because its a mitigating factor. Catelyn and Ned Stark, who's child Jaime tried to murder, find themselves thinking what they would do in his position. It doesn't absolve him of guilty, it's context. If you don't see nuance and see everything in black and white, this is not going to make sense.

[Apoplexy]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:23 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Does not Jaime also have obligations towards the rest of House Lannister and it's allies? He cannot just give it away for personal reasons. There needs to be a push factor for House Lannister to relinquish Riverrun. Jaime must justify his actions, unless he wants to make his kin and other Westermen distrust him.

1. Riverrun is taken from the House Lannister.
2. Edmure is relinquished on the condition that there will be a marriage between his heir. and someone connected to the Lannister family.
3. Edmure is released or handed over, as part of a agreement with a third party. Which House Lannister agrees to as they are put in a position that makes a surrender neccesary.

As of right now, House Frey holds Riverrun. I think it's safe to say the freys are seeing their downfall and wont hold it for long and riverland houses are most likely to support a tully as liege. There could be an alliance between the Westermen and the Tullys/riverland houses in which riverrun is restored to the Tullys. A marriage alliance between Edmure's heir and a lannister could definitely be a condition.

On 1/4/2022 at 6:23 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

How would Jaime be able to do something heroic during the long night? What might it be? Does it have to be actions of personal valor or could it be the creation of new political settlement?

Jaime known to be a fighter not a statesman, so it would have to be an act of personal valor. I dont think its an accident that Brienne has one half of Ice and I think Jaime is likely to have the other half since Joffrey is dead. 

That is not to say Jaime is incapable of being a statesman, the siege at riverrun is proof of that. But for his character to be glorified in history, it will probably have to be some physical heroic act, considering Jaime's reputation.

On 1/4/2022 at 6:23 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Good point!

I personally feel it wouldn't be a stretch for Jaime, one of the best swordsman in the realm, to learn to use his left hand even without Qhorin. But I think that's the reason for Qhorin's backstory. 

On 1/4/2022 at 6:41 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Or perhaps he is avoiding his duty as Tywin's heir. I imagine that is how Tywin sees it.

Tywin sees it that way for sure! I think Jaime will be dismissed from the KG. Jaime sees himself as knight/soldier and does not wish to leave the KG. But he may find a calling in commanding the westerlands army. Plus, he is a romantic. He wanted to marry Cersei. If he finds someone he loves and gets his boyhood desire for love and romance, he may not regret leaving the KG.

[Dofs]

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

No, I speak about it as if we don't know.  You're the one who wants to argue from ignorance.

I am analysing the situation based on what is given in the text by considering that all elements that are needed to come to a correct conclusion are already present there. You are the one trying to create mystery out of thin air when there are no hints of one existing. The difference between you and me is not that you don't want to come to conclusion due to a lack of information but I do, the difference is that you believe that there is a lack of information in the first place but I don't.

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

The text does not actually say that, though

It doesn't say what exactly?

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nothing has to be "rational".  After the dream, Jaime (perhaps) feels more kindly toward Brienne.  This kindly feeling is inspired by the dream, in which he and Brienne are allies against a common foe.  He then acts on his feelings, perhaps without thinking much about them.

It makes no sense for Jaime not to think about ghost police.

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

None of which necessarily implies guilt or repentance.  Which I'm not necessarily ruling out either.  It's just that the text never documents such a though process.  And later, Jaime makes clear to Lancel that he has no interest in repentance.

The scene with Kingsguard and Rhaegar clearly documents guilt.

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Says who?  The dream is less likely to influence his conduct if it was weeks ago, rather than something he just woke up from.  You are WAY overthinking this, while ironically accusing me of being too "rational" about Jaime's sudden impulsive reaction to a dream vision.

Because if you believe that a ghost police is after you, you are not going to stop thinking about it weeks later. It's simple common sense.

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime known to be a fighter not a statesman, so it would have to be an act of personal valor. I dont think its an accident that Brienne has one half of Ice and I think Jaime is likely to have the other half since Joffrey is dead. 

The other sword was inherited by Tommen, and is still in King's Landing.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Widow's_Wail

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

That is not to say Jaime is incapable of being a statesman, the siege at riverrun is proof of that. But for his character to be glorified in history, it will probably have to be some physical heroic act, considering Jaime's reputation.

Even if Jaime does a physical heroic act it might not be valor. It could perhaps be sacrifice or perhaps comforting someone?

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Tywin sees it that way for sure! I think Jaime will be dismissed from the KG. Jaime sees himself as knight/soldier and does not wish to leave the KG. But he may find a calling in commanding the westerlands army. Plus, he is a romantic. He wanted to marry Cersei. If he finds someone he loves and gets his boyhood desire for love and romance, he may not regret leaving the KG.

Why would Jaime be dismissed from the Kingsguard, and who would push for the outcome? If Jaime is not dismissed, the kingsguard that he is part of might be dissolved following Aegon conquest.