The Milk Brother Bond

[Curled Finger]

Young Ned Dayne proudly announces to Arya that he is the milk brother of her bastard brother, Jon Snow.   Arianne thinks of Gared as her milk brother,  Jon and Melisandre refer to both babies at the wall as milk brothers.   Ned Dayne has no memory of this but he does seem to dig the idea he shared mother’s milk with a Stark child.  Arianne very matter of factly states that she and Gared have been inseparable since their days at the breast together.   Melisandre suggests Jon is cruel to separate the babies at the wall because they share this bond.   But what is the bond between milk babies (can’t all be brothers, Arianne is all girl all day).   Jacaerys Velarion and his cousin Daeron Targaryan were also milk brothers because their grandfather hoped this bond would heal the enmity between the families.   We have a decent grasp on the relationships between people in ASOIAF but I wonder what general consensus regarding milk brothers is.  Ned Dayne really does sound like he believes there is something shared between himself and Jon Snow.  Is there anything special in mother’s milk for these children normally fed by a woman who is not mother to either of them?  

[Julia H.]

Add to the above the following quote:

Quote

Jon was still not certain how he felt about it. Robb a king? The brother he'd played with, fought with, shared his first cup of wine with? But not mother's milk, no. So now Robb will sip summerwine from jeweled goblets, while I'm kneeling beside some stream sucking snowmelt from cupped hands. "Robb will make a good king," he said loyally.

Is it significant? Jon thinks this when he envisions the very different fates he and his brother will have. Maybe it means milk siblings (who are not blood siblings) can expect to have a similar future in some way? That they are either "inseparable" or, if separated, will meet one day and share the same fate? Or that they will share a similar fate even if they remain separated?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Add to the above the following quote:

Is it significant? Jon thinks this when he envisions the very different fates he and his brother will have. Maybe it means milk siblings (who are not blood siblings) can expect to have a similar future in some way? That they are either "inseparable" or, if separated, will meet one day and share the same fate? Or that they will share a similar fate even if they remain separated?

Yes!  I saw that one, too.  Jon feels set apart from Robb yet loves him as a brother.  Is Jon placing more importance on the blood bond of milk brothers sharing the milk of their mother or is it a desperate declaration of further isolation from Robb's blood?  It is a very interesting thought.  King Viserys thought nursing 2 children together would build a bond yet tenuous as an experience as it may be Jon doesn't even have that to explain his love for Robb.  I tell you, I really really want to see a meeting between Ned Dayne and Jon Snow just to see Jon's bafflement at the pride in calling himself milk brother by the small connection of the woman.   Jon is what 3 to 5 years older?  This kid still thinks it's very cool.  Yes, I want to read Jon's mind blow.  To shared destiny I hadn't got that far with the thoughts, but yes, certainly it could be an indication.  Still I am most hesitant to get into possible prophecy.   Just not any good at divining the story.  Of our few examples Arianne takes her closeness with Gared for granted that they would be close which I put under the same sort of category as Melisandre regarding Gilly & Dalla's boys separations as cruel--both statements recall Cersei declaring the bond she and Jamie share as twins.    Hmph.  

[Julia H.]

I would also like a future meeting between Ned Dayne and his milk brother. 

(- "I am the sword in the darkness."

- "I am the Sword of the Morning. Do you know that we are milk brothers?")

The quote in my previous post symbolizes fates with types of drink. Jon and Robb shared wine but not mother's milk and their expected fates are then symbolized by drinking summerwine and snowmelt, respectively. (I do think their fates will be hugely different, if not the way Jon envisioned.) I wonder what @Seams might think of drinks and fates. (Cf. cup referring to 'fate', bitter cup in the Bible etc.) 

Milk for babies and wetnurses are recurring, important motifs in ASOIAF, and perhaps being milk brothers is part of this larger theme. As it is being discussed in another thread, Monster and little Aemon may expect very different futures (but perhaps they remain tied together through Gilly's milk). After Gilly's departure, Monster gets new wetnurses from the mountains and probably gains some new, far-away milk siblings.

Quote

The Norrey woman was forty, with the biggest breasts Jon Snow had ever seen. The Flint girl was fourteen and flat-chested as a boy, though she did not lack for milk. Between the two of them, the child Val called Monster seemed to be thriving.

A mature wetnurse and a young one, and the baby thriving... I remember it was suggested once that it might mean the wildlings in Westeros could eventually be "nursed" by the mountain clans. Perhaps the wildlings and the clans can discover their shared past and culture (symbolized by the mature, maternal wetnurse) and can look forward to an abundant future (symbolized by the girl) together. Late in ADwD, Tormund suspects that his son, Toregg has taken a liking to one of Monster's wetnurses.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I would also like a future meeting between Ned Dayne and his milk brother. 

(- "I am the sword in the darkness."

- "I am the Sword of the Morning. Do you know that we are milk brothers?")

Milk for babies and wetnurses are recurring, important motifs in ASOIAF, and perhaps being milk brothers is part of this larger theme. As it is being discussed in another thread, Monster and little Aemon may expect very different futures (but perhaps they remain tied together through Gilly's milk). After Gilly's departure, Monster gets new wetnurses from the mountains and probably gains some new, far-away milk siblings.

A mature wetnurse and a young one, and the baby thriving... I remember it was suggested once that it might mean the wildlings in Westeros could eventually be "nursed" by the mountain clans. Perhaps the wildlings and the clans can discover their shared past and culture (symbolized by the mature, maternal wetnurse) and can look forward to an abundant future (symbolized by the girl) together. Late in ADwD, Tormund suspects that his son, Toregg has taken a liking to one of Monster's wetnurses.

Dialogue is flawless hehehe...

I'm still batting your idea about shared fate around.   Trying to consider all four examples and I cannot shake the Cersei speech.  Viserys could not force a bond between children who should have naturally got along.  No bonding there.  What will Jon think of a milk brother?  Went back and reread your quote from Jon.  It strikes me as sad Cat could not accept him, shame she was not his mother.  Resentment.  I think he wonders how he could love Robb so much in light of his step mother's cold shoulder.  Cersei would have us believe that she and Jamie are halves of a whole.  I just don't have enough for our Southron babies.   Surely no one could say Gared is not loyal.  There is a sense of destiny in Arianne's statement.  And a welcome peace for a boy from a very different station in life.  I dunno, the quote just made me hate her a little less.  Our current milk brothers are way too young to be able to say what goes between them.  As I recall Dalla's boy has been with Gilly from very early in his suckling career.  Yet he sobs and wails on the ship--he is inconsolable at times as Gilly herself becomes.  Maybe he misses his milk brother?  By all accounts Gilly's son is thriving...and suddenly has a name  *shudder*  I do wonder what that's all about really.  

Nice nice wrap up.  I don't read enough hope around this joint.   Yes, let's hope they can discover themselves in each other and push peace forward.  Something tells me our friend Seams will like what you've done with the symbolism.  

[Seams]

Great topic!

Another interesting pair of "milk brothers" is Bloodraven and Bittersteel - turned into symbolic milk brothers because Aegon IV renames the Riverlands hills known as  The Teats as, in turn, Barbra's Teats and Missy's Teats. Since Barbra is the mother of Aegor Rivers (Bittersteel) and Missy is the mother of Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven), the interchangeable breast names for the hills might represent their father turning the boys into milk brothers, even if they never shared a nurse maid.

In Jaime's travels through the Riverlands, we learn that Pennytree - located in the middle of the teats - is a royal fief, so it is not part of the spoils of war to be apportioned to House Bracken or House Blackwood. We do see Jaime transfer ownership of Honeytree (but not Pennytree, Raventree or The Teats). 

When Dunk is inventing his name and back story, he almost claims to be from Pennytree but decides not to make that claim. I think the town is symbolic of royal bloodlines and/or legitimate claims to the throne. This would explain why the Blackwoods and Brackens both want to surround it. There are wordplay possibilities in Ser Arlan of Pennytree (as well as Illifer the Pennyless) that might tie the location to serpents, which is a traditional way to refer to dragons. Maybe the dragon presence at The Teats links to Dany as the Mother of Dragons.

On 12/27/2021 at 6:23 PM, Julia H. said:

Jon was still not certain how he felt about it. Robb a king? The brother he'd played with, fought with, shared his first cup of wine with? But not mother's milk, no. So now Robb will sip summerwine from jeweled goblets, while I'm kneeling beside some stream sucking snowmelt from cupped hands. "Robb will make a good king," he said loyally.

Excellent catch. Jon is picturing Robb drinking summerwine but, like Melisandre, his mental image might be just a little off: it is Bran's wolf that is named Summer. And what does Summer drink? All kinds of blood. And when Summer drinks blood, Bran drinks vicariously, as he is often warging Summer when the wolf makes a kill. 

I wonder whether we see a similar contrast at Joffrey's wedding feast? Joffrey drinks wine from a jeweled goblet and soon dies. (Before he drank from it, he joked about chipping the direwolf off of the cup.) Tyrion doesn't drink snowmelt from cupped hands but he was the King's Hand (until he was demoted) and he imagines kissing Sansa - the bride that Joffrey rejected. Would kissing the Stark maid be like drinking snow water? 

Regarding the question of drinks and fates, Bran has an additional important shared drink: he uses Ned's silver wolf goblet at the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. (And symbolically dies and is carried to bed by Hodor.) He speaks of the feel of the goblet in his palm, which made me wonder whether GRRM was making a tree allusion (i.e., palm tree or it could be a near-anagram of maple). Maybe the symbolism is that the wine in the wolf goblet is like blood being poured on the roots of a tree. 

Cressen uses the wine glass that belonged to Davos when he pours out the Strangler poison. So both Cressen and Melisandre drink from Davos's glass. 

Jon Snow gives Sam Tarly the broken horn from the obsidian cache, telling him he can use it for a drinking horn. This may be a symbolic "shared" drink. 

 

[Julia H.]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:10 AM, Curled Finger said:

By all accounts Gilly's son is thriving...and suddenly has a name  *shudder*  I do wonder what that's all about really.  

I don't think Monster counts as a name. It is certainly not like the names wildlings usually have. Besides, Val knows the tradition and I don't see a reason why she should break it. 

There are parallels here with real life cultures where it was customary to avoid using the names of small babies to protect them from evil spirits - even if they did have official names (because they had been baptized and named). But it was still necessary to refer to the babies somehow, to talk to them even, so protective pseudonyms were used. Some of them were words meaning something like 'no one, non-existent' to mislead the evil powers, others were designed to make the baby unattractive to those powers, such as 'little ugly one'. I think Monster may fall into the latter category. If the Others are looking for him, they are looking for a human baby, so this name may, supposedly, mislead them. Perhaps.

[James West]

No bond.  Milk brothers is not a formal relationship.  It's a nice way of saying the two were together as infants and suckled from the same breasts.  

[Lord Lannister]

The milk brother bond seemed a clumsy and forced way to connect Ned Dayne to the Starks. Like if I sleep with the same woman as someone else, does that make us milk brothers? 

[Curled Finger]

@James West & @Lord Lannister, I actually never paid much attention to whatever this bond may or may not be until the the fates of Gilly & Mance's babies topic running concurrently.  Family is such an important theme throughout ASOIAF.  Family one is born to and family one chooses.   One of our major characters really only has dragons for family.   I'm sort of looking at the Milk Brother bond in the same light as Arya removing The Hound from her list.   She's made a choice.  He has somehow redeemed himself in her eyes and ... what?   I am not so sure the bond is about sharing mother's milk so much as the time and proximity the children are forced to spend together.  They would share routine and rearing.  They would share lullabys and stories and lessons and appetites.   Of our 4 or 5 examples and the glaring omission of Robb and Jon sharing the nursing, most of them leave the children as very close in their adult hood.   Or at least Ned Dayne feels a kinship with House Stark through his shared nursing with Jon Snow though they did not nurse together.   

In real life I am actually a milk brother (sister?) with my cousin.   While I enjoyed my 3 month older cousin when we were children I have not spoken with her in decades.  There is no bond there, but that is reality.   I cannot help but look for threads of magical relationships in Martin's fantastic world.  

[Seams]

I'm not even sure that the bond is about time and proximity for the bonded pair. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think there is a dairy motif in the books that may include the "milk brother" notion as well as eggs (dragon, chicken, etc.) and perhaps even House Darry. I suspect that "milk of the poppy" might be wordplay on milk that comes from a male line instead of breast milk, which originates from a female. And then we have detailed or seemingly significant references to cheese - Olenna demanding cheese after her interrogation of Sansa and Tyrion serving cheese to Janos Slynt:

Quote

Slynt went on, oblivious. "A hard man for a hard job, is Deem. Does as he's told, and never a word afterward." He cut a slice off the cheese. "This is fine. Sharp. Give me a good sharp knife and a good sharp cheese and I'm a happy man."

Tyrion shrugged. "Enjoy it while you can. With the riverlands in flame and Renly king in Highgarden, good cheese will soon be hard to come by. So who sent you after the whore's bastard?"

Lord Janos gave Tyrion a wary look, then laughed and wagged a wedge of cheese at him. "You're a sly one, Tyrion. Thought you could trick me, did you? It takes more than wine and cheese to make Janos Slynt tell more than he should. I pride myself. Never a question, and never a word afterward, not with me."

(ACoK, Tyrion II)

What does cheese represent in this rare interaction between a major character and a character with a major symbolic role to play in the arc of a different major character? Why would Renly as King of Highgarden have a major influence on the cheese supply? Is it just that the Reach is a breadbasket for that area of Westeros, or is there more important symbolism in this dairy product? 

In analyzing the milk brother symbolism, we also have to examine the river known as the Milkwater. Mance and a gathering of Free Folk are camped at the source of the Milkwater, which is at the foot of a glacier. (Which probably means that milk and ice are linked.)

Jon Snow is sent on a ranging to the Milkwater. As they leave the headwaters, he bonds with Qhorin and Stonesnake by sharing a meal that includes the blood of Stonesnake's horse (a shaggy garron) which had broken a leg and had to be killed. Another one of those shared "drinks" that could symbolize a convergence of powers or symbols, or a shared fate? I suspect that this blood is a balance for the milk (ice?) into which Jon is about to immerse himself as he joins the wildlings as a spy. Is Qhorin giving him some kind of inoculation? Or just making sure he has both blood and milk in his veins, as part of the "balance of forces" magic that Jon embodies so well with his mixed bloodlines?

[Springwatch]

23 minutes ago, Seams said:

Quote

With the riverlands in flame and Renly king in Highgarden, good cheese will soon be hard to come by.

Expand  

What does cheese represent in this rare interaction between a major character and a character with a major symbolic role to play in the arc of a different major character? Why would Renly as King of Highgarden have a major influence on the cheese supply? Is it just that the Reach is a breadbasket for that area of Westeros, or is there more important symbolism in this dairy product? 

Cows are everywhere; Highgarden doesn't have a monopoly on dairy - so the symbolic approach is the right one, I think.

I like the idea of white foods representing winter or the moon (that would be all milk and most, if not all, cheeses). In that case, cheese will indeed be absent from the riverlands (so hot they're on fire) and Highgarden (ruled by the King of the knights of summer).

Hard to prove though - a lot of people eat cheese, and a lot of people will be affected by winter, or winter people.  The examples that do pop out are Janos (heading north), and Shagga (of the Mountains of the Moon, smells strongly cheeselike).

The really interesting question would be how to treat golden cheeses. A golden moon? A golden sun? Gold is so often cold in asoiaf, it's hard to know where to place it. Not to mention moon dragons that drink sun fire.

Which brings us to Olenna's feast for Sansa. She wants to cut straight to the cheese, and at the time she's demanding cheese, she's demanding the truth about Joffrey. I think this particular cheese was golden.

[Seams]

One of the pairs of balancing forces in ASOIAF is shaggy and sharp: Bran observes that statues of past Stark lords and kings in the Winterfell crypt are either shaggy (bearded) or sharp and there are many other shaggy and sharp references once you start looking for them (including Shaggydog, the direwolf belonging to Rickon, and Qhorin Halfhand seeming to express relief when the "sharp" tip of Jon Snow's sword slices open his throat). 

I think the sharp cheese is part of this symbolism but, thankfully, there does not seem to be a shaggy cheese paired with the sharp cheese. Instead, there are some references to soft cheeses. 

I have compared GRRM's web of symbolism to chainmail, with one link connecting to others in several directions, not just a single straight line. I hope this might explain why cheese could link to the "sharp" symbolism that also refers to facial features and swords, but apparently not link to the shaggy symbolism. Certainly there is still work to do to articulate a key to all mythologies explaining ASOIAF dairy and other symbols.

It could be that the sharp/shaggy, yin/yang duality is like the milk/blood duality, underscoring Jon Snow drinking the blood of a shaggy garron before he enters the camp at the Milkwater, as I mentioned earlier. Yet this is the detail of the cheese Tyrion serves to Janos Slynt:

Quote

Tyrion broke off a nibble of the cheese. It was sharp indeed, and veined with wine; very choice. "Whoever the king names will not have an easy time stepping into your armor, I can tell. Lord Mormont faces the same problem."

(ACoK, Tyrion II)

Is wine a symbolic form of blood? Are there any other places in the books where cheese and wine are united as one? As the wine god of ASOIAF, does Tyrion have a special ability to unite cheese and wine? 

As if to answer my questions (or to puzzle me further), the next two references to cheese in Tyrion POVs are these:

Quote

Varys stood over the brazier, warming his soft hands. "It would appear Renly was murdered most fearfully in the very midst of his army. His throat was opened from ear to ear by a blade that passed through steel and bone as if they were soft cheese."

(ACoK, Tyrion VIII)

The ship was small, his cabin smaller, but the captain would not allow him abovedecks. The rocking of the deck beneath his feet made his stomach heave, and the wretched food tasted even worse when retched back up. But why did he need salt beef, hard cheese, and bread crawling with worms when he had wine to nourish him? It was red and sour, very strong. Sometimes he heaved the wine up too, but there was always more.

(ADwD, Tyrion I)

Fwiw, I see no references to gold or golden cheese in the books. The cheese ordered by Olenna is not characterized in any way, except to indicate that it was brought out of order, according to Olenna's demand:

Quote

"... You know, child, some say that you are as big a fool as Butterbumps here, and I am starting to believe them. Comely? I have taught my Margaery what comely is worth, I hope. Somewhat less than a mummer's fart. Aerion Brightfire was comely enough, but a monster all the same. The question is, what is Joffrey?" She reached to snag a passing servant. "I am not fond of leeks. Take this broth away, and bring me some cheese."

"The cheese will be served after the cakes, my lady."

"The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "Are you frightened, child? No need for that, we're only women here. Tell me the truth, no harm will come to you."

...

"I thought that dreadful song would never end," said the Queen of Thorns. "But look, here comes my cheese."

(ASoS, Sansa I)

Note: The fool called Butterbumps is very likely part of the dairy motif. "Butterbumps" may even be a veiled reference to mammary glands. He also hatches eggs as Sansa watches. Interestingly, he sings the Bear and Maiden Fair song to cover the treasonous conversation between Olenna and Sansa. The bear song may link to Tyrion and Slynt briefly discussing Jeor and Maege Mormont (the bear is their House sigil) during their shared meal with the wine-veined cheese. 

I am seeing a possible link between dairy foods and interrogation, but I'm not sure yet. More puzzlement. 

[HoodedCrow]

Blood and Cheese killed Prince Jaehaerys?

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Blood and Cheese killed Prince Jaehaerys?

Yep. A ratcatcher and a gold cloak. Here you go: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Cheese_(ratcatcher)

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blood_(butcher)

[Springwatch]

16 minutes ago, Seams said:

Fwiw, I see no references to gold or golden cheese in the books. The cheese ordered by Olenna is not characterized in any way, except to indicate that it was brought out of order, according to Olenna's demand:

I beg your pardon. Yellow cheese, not gold.  And I like to speculate as much as the next person, and try always to say when I do.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The really interesting question would be how to treat golden cheeses. A golden moon? A golden sun? Gold is so often cold in asoiaf, it's hard to know where to place it.

 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I beg your pardon. Yellow cheese, not gold.

Interesting to note that the five references to yellow cheese are all in the arcs of Arya, Brienne and Asha. The yellow cheeses are sometimes described as wheels. I wonder whether the travels, quests or odysseys associated with those three women tie back to the wheels? The yellow cheeses also seem to be associated with "simple fare," as opposed to the fancy, multi-course meals served to Tyrion, Olenna and their guests.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

The bond seems to imply that the two are the next closest thing to biological siblings.  They do not share DNA.  The number of bonds are endless.  Robert and Ned are connected by the Foster Bond since they both grew up with the same adoptive family.  Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are bound by the Birth Bond, or Fire Bond.  The eggs all hatched on the same fire by the same Mother.  All of the hatchlings were bought with the lives of Drogo, Viserys, and Rhaego.

The milk bond foretells a future contact between the Daynes and the Starks. 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Jon Snow is sent on a ranging to the Milkwater. As they leave the headwaters, he bonds with Qhorin and Stonesnake by sharing a meal that includes the blood of Stonesnake's horse (a shaggy garron) which had broken a leg and had to be killed. Another one of those shared "drinks" that could symbolize a convergence of powers or symbols, or a shared fate? I suspect that this blood is a balance for the milk (ice?) into which Jon is about to immerse himself as he joins the wildlings as a spy. Is Qhorin giving him some kind of inoculation? Or just making sure he has both blood and milk in his veins, as part of the "balance of forces" magic that Jon embodies so well with his mixed bloodlines?

I love it when you do that.   Brilliant as usual.   Thank you Seams.  

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The bond seems to imply that the two are the next closest thing to biological siblings.  They do not share DNA.  The number of bonds are endless.  Robert and Ned are connected by the Foster Bond since they both grew up with the same adoptive family.  Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are bound by the Birth Bond, or Fire Bond.  The eggs all hatched on the same fire by the same Mother.  All of the hatchlings were bought with the lives of Drogo, Viserys, and Rhaego.

The milk bond foretells a future contact between the Daynes and the Starks. 

I have a niece who swears she got dermatitis from the pregnancy with one of her sons.   This is the only son, indeed person, in the immediate family who suffers this ailment other than his mom.   His paternal grandfather has the er, malady.  Great idea at any rate!   Yes, next closest thing to blood brothers.  I like your bringing in the fosters.  I cannot divine the purpose or symbolism of much at all, but I do think this bond as well as those you listed are part of the fabric--next closest thing to blood.   The brother you choose.  

I always thought Ned Dayne's delight as his connection with Arya was odd--smacks of unpaid debt or something way back to me.   Then Viserys thinking yep this will do the trick enforced that uneasiness about the idea.  I have my eye on your milk bond portent.