The Wheel of Time TV: Ta'veren Tango (Book Spoilers)

[IlyaP]

So where were we? 

Ah yes - showing off a new trailer for season 2. 

I regret nothing!

 

 

[Corvinus85]

Issue resolved.

[Rippounet]

Finally found some time to watch the last two episodes together. I'd seen some very negative comments (Ran's and Zorral's) in other threads, so I braced myself for the worst.

Imagine my surprise when episode 7 opened with a truly excellent fight scene. Oh sure, it's not perfect, and the fact that Tigraine is in labor makes it unbelievable, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for rule of cool. And it establishes the Maidens of the spear as amazing warriors, which will be handy later on.
The rest of the episode was decently executed (they got the pace right imho).
I thought they dealt with Mat staying behind well. I was afraid that wouldn't be properly addressed (like on The Expanse).
The Ways and Machin Shin were ok, though narratively speaking, it's not clear how and why Padan Fain was able to get inside, and then follow the group. His objectives there don't make much sense (did he want them to get lost or not?).
Anyway, the arrival in Shienar was a great moment for me. They managed to build the story of that little kingdom in just a few minutes (not bad). Visually, the fortress and the costumes work very well. And it was nice (and something of a relief) to have a kingdom of competent, smart people who have their priorities straight and don't indulge in petty political bickering (it's a nice contrast with the Aes Sedai, as it should be).
Lan and Nynaeve relationship truly grew, and the two actors sold it for me. Lots of good bits there. Though Lan really shouldn't have said he had nothing to die for, that is a big mistake right there.
The argument between our heroes was a bit ridiculous (Rand and Perrin never fought over Egwene, even if Perrin's attention to her was noticeable). It feels like something they had to rewrite because of Mat's absence.
Min was a surprise. I have to admit, I really didn't expect her to be Asian for some reason. Her viewings were well-done, if a bit confusing (Moiraine's especially). All that will no doubt serve for season 2.
Contrary to many people, I thought the reveal of Ran as the dragon was well-executed. Tigraine's story should have been enough to give the truth away to anyone having paid attention (by that I mean that Rand not being Tam's biological son and his mother being a badass, tells us he's special), but it was still properly done. Rand slowly getting better at archery was a fine way of hinting at him becoming a much better fighter. The flashbacks were exactly what was needed, and him going to Min made sense and hinted at a (possible?) future relationship too. Him leaving with Moiraine to protect his friends was the logical thing to do at that point.
All in all, a very strong episode for me.

Episode 8... Well, after the buildup of episode 7, what was supposed to be the climax of the season felt disappointing.
The opening with Lews Therin was excellent. Good acting there, and nice glimpse of the Age of Legends.
The blight was... well, it felt a bit cheap.
Rand's confrontation with Ishamael (it's Ishamael, right?), was ok. I like the actor playing Ishy. But Iit feels like I've seen such moments a dozen times before. To be fair, given what had been established (in the show, but also in the books), they just had to do it that way. Partner noted the little smile in the end, as Rand destroys him. It's a good thing that it's both obvious and not too obvious that Rand has actually broken a seal.
The girls' arc... I dunno. I was a bit disappointed that they didn't really do the channeling themselves (though this may prove a very good choice for the next seasons, as they still have a lot to learn). Most importantly it was visually underwhelming for me. I think they could have made the slaughter of the trolloc army a bit better. Can't quite put my finger on it. And I didn't like Egwene resurrecting Nynaeve (it's ok to have Nynaeve as a super-healer, but there's no reason why Egwene should be able to do that), though I guess it establishes that one has to be careful about interpreting Min's visions.
OTOH, I had no problem with the women going outside the wall for their suicide super-charge slow-down-the-enemy mission. Though, yes, some lightning hitting the walls to show how difficult it was to control would have been nice.
I really didn't buy Nynaeve having a « tell » for tracking Moiraine that Lan can conveniently use.
Perrin's arc with Padan Fain was a trainwreck. The excavation for the Horn of Valere was ridiculous. Padan Fain waltzing in with his fades was ridiculous. Perrin leaving the throne room and then going back to talk with Fain was ridiculous. Perrin's face during the whole thing was ridiculous. Fuck, the whole thing was ridiculous.
That and Agelmar's quick death (seriously, wtf?) did Shienar wrong. It's a shame, because episode 7 had done the job, and I liked having the women in charge of the fortress.
The episode ending with Rand leaving on his own and Moiraine being stilled (or shielded) sounds about right. It makes sense to do it that way, I think.
And lastly, the introduction of the Seanchan was nice. I didn't expect the Damane to make it to the show tbh! I do think they could have added some sails there, but I guess this wasn't supposed to be the main invasion fleet.

There are lots of mistakes here and there, things that don't add up. I especially don't like the way they used Padan Fain. But then, I remember disliking the way he was written in the books as well (I remember thinking of him as a poor variation of Gollum).

I'm intrigued by what they're doing with Mat. Obviously, the actor leaving was a terrible blow, and though it's not flawless, I think they dealt with it as well as one could hope, and are now introducing something new (which will no doubt allow the other characters to be surprised by his new appearance when they meet again, ha ha). I just hope he still turns out as cool as in the books in the end.

 

All in all, I thought the whole season was ok. It's obviously not great : there are too many mistakes, small and big, and it's not as visually impressive as I expected (given the budget). But I don't think it's bad either. There were some truly terrible scenes (really didn't like Valda), but the writing wasn't atrocious enough for me to laugh or roll my eyes, and the terrible scenes didn't hurt the overall story. I think there's a decent balance between world-building and entertainment, and that's the most important to me, because it gives the show the potential to improve.

The show is just harder to enjoy for book readers. And the more one likes the books and knows them, and the harder it is imho. Fortunately, my memories of the books are vague, so I can see what they're trying to do most of the time. Not all of their choices work, and it doesn't help that there are mistakes (not all of them due to Mat's absence). But I can see why these choices might make the story better for non-book readers, and I strongly believe some of them will only make sense over the course of several seasons.

[IlyaP]

Thx for the title fix, @Ran! 

[Denvek]

Given that the first thought I had when Rand had his vision of rural idyllic life with Egwene was "I HAVE WON AGAIN, LEWS THERIN" I'm going to assume they're not doing anything with Portal Stones in Season 2.

[Ran]

I agree. It felt a lot like the "flicker" scene in TGH where Rand rapidly runs through things when trying to use the portal stones.

One of the posts in the previous thread speculated that Rand's going what seemed to be east suggested he might be going to the Waste next season, but per a recent interview with Judkins he's just said that some characters will be involved in TGH storylines and some will be in TDR storylines.

Sooo, I'm thinking that they may parallel the women and presumably Mat at Toman Head with Rand making his way to Tear and getting Callandor or something. Not sure where that leaves Perrin.

[Maltaran]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I agree. It felt a lot like the "flicker" scene in TGH where Rand rapidly runs through things when trying to use the portal stones.

One of the posts in the previous thread speculated that Rand's going what seemed to be east suggested he might be going to the Waste next season, but per a recent interview with Judkins he's just said that some characters will be involved in TGH storylines and some will be in TDR storylines.

Sooo, I'm thinking that they may parallel the women and presumably Mat at Toman Head with Rand making his way to Tear and getting Callandor or something. Not sure where that leaves Perrin.

If they’re going to merge Hurin and Elyas to give Perrin some wolfbrother training/exposition then presumably he’ll be chasing Rand (which describes much of his storyline in both TGH and TDR)

[Ran]

Yeah, that makes sense. I vaguely recall he was in Tear by the time Rand got Callandor. Certainly, he's depicted on the cover.

[Maltaran]

The damane costumes remind me of the Qunari mages in Dragon Age 2, which kind of makes sense given that both cultures see them as dangerous things to be controlled

[sologdin]

rather liked the last temptation of christ bit in the eye. i don't recall the novel handling it that way?

having egg and nyn nuke the enemy preserves the mystery of who the DR is. they could maintain that uncertainty for a while. no need to resolve the undecidability, i don't think.

[karaddin]

Daniel Greene's season review is more critical of the show than I am, but I think measured and reasonable. He also had more details of some of the production issues they faced which he thinks (and seems right to me) really harmed the final episode - I'd taken into account the loss of Mat, but hadn't followed the implication to realise that other plots were probably disturbed by removing Perrin to take Mat's place seeing Fain steal the horn. 

Also hadn't realised how badly the pandemic screwed the location shooting with them being outright unable to get back to some of the planned locations. Even though i had no issues with the women being in the open field, the blocking of the set up was odd and clunky from a visuals point of view and I did think "they should have brought chairs" while they were just standing around waiting. 

He's also critical of the Egwene reviving Nynaeve scene but sticking to what I think is right and fair - it's not bad writing in that Egwene didn't bring Nynaeve back from the dead, but it's bad effects and editing which made it look like Nynaeve was dead when she wasn't.

On the whole I think the show was dealt some really bad cards that didn't let them put the best version of this season out, and I hope the combination of circumstances and experience result in a cleaner second season. Possibly with some additional lighting/editing etc staff to improve those elements.

[Corvinus85]

24 minutes ago, sologdin said:

having egg and nyn nuke the enemy preserves the mystery of who the DR is. they could maintain that uncertainty for a while. no need to resolve the undecidability, i don't think.

umm, only one of the characters has Lews Therin's memories and we've seen who that is. So the mystery has unraveled.

[sologdin]

do we know that? father of lies and all that. my point was that the scriptwriting has enhanced an ambiguity that's latent in the underlying text.

[Rippounet]

47 minutes ago, sologdin said:

do we know that? father of lies and all that.

I suppose the beginning of the second season could try to cast doubt on whether the DR is really Rand after all. Padan Fain did talk about the five Ta'veren, and Rand hasn't demonstrated extraordinary powers so far. The non-book reader has no way of knowing what really happened at the Eye, so some level of ambiguity remains.
It would be a rather cheap trick though, because we know something happened at the Eye, something beyond what any "normal" channeler should be able to do.

But it is not impossible. Ishamael (or another Forsaken) could tell Rand he isn't the DR, to confuse and weaken him ; he could pretend that he used Rand to break the seal, which only required using Saidin. And the story of Rand's origins (with Tigraine's story) could muddy the waters quite a bit. Especially if Nynaeve and Egwene continue displaying amazing powers (not to mention Perrin), while Rand refrains from using his powers.
Worst-case scenario, they could even surprise everyone and make the DR someone else at the very end (Egwene, I guess). It's "another turning of the wheel" after all. The DR could be one, a dyad (hello SW), or all five. They could keep the viewer guessing for as long as they want.

I don't think I'd like this.

47 minutes ago, sologdin said:

my point was that the scriptwriting has enhanced an ambiguity that's latent in the underlying text.

What do you mean by "underlying text" ?

[fionwe1987]

17 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Imagine how many men who were Aes Sedai may have existed in the previous age. 

We don't have to. The answer is about 150 million, per RJ.

Not all went mad at once, of course. And new channelers in similarly large-ish numbers were born who also went mad. There were attempts at finding cures. Denial. Escapes to places where access to the Power was blocked. All told, 400 odd years of massive destruction that moved tectonic plates, tossed the world around, and broke down most of the infrastructure of the world. 

[karaddin]

I'd suggest that if they actually go that route, every book reader that disliked the mystery to the point of it ruining the show should pass on the season in advance - I'd be getting annoyed at it at that point lol

[UnplayableChar]

In hindsight, why IS Rand the Dragon? Because he can channel? So can Nynaeve and Egwene, and as we established the Dragon can be either a man or a woman. Like what is the reason stated in the show that he believes he's the Dragon, and that Moiraine believes him?

EDIT: he did see the "Dark One" in his memories, but it's still not clear why Moiraine would believe that he actually is the Dragon. Maybe Min told him? It's unclear.

[BigFatCoward]

What the fuck was that last scene about? 

[UnplayableChar]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

What the fuck was that last scene about? 

MCU-like after-credit scene presenting the story's next villain. You can tell they're villains because they tsunami little girls. Only villains would do that.

[BigFatCoward]

7 minutes ago, UnplayableChar said:

MCU-like after-credit scene presenting the story's next villain. You can tell they're villains because they tsunami little girls. Only villains would do that.

It seemed like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and a large amount of wasted power.