The Wheel of Time TV: Ta'veren Tango (Book Spoilers)

[Darryk]

2 hours ago, UnplayableChar said:

In hindsight, why IS Rand the Dragon? Because he can channel? So can Nynaeve and Egwene, and as we established the Dragon can be either a man or a woman. Like what is the reason stated in the show that he believes he's the Dragon, and that Moiraine believes him?

EDIT: he did see the "Dark One" in his memories, but it's still not clear why Moiraine would believe that he actually is the Dragon. Maybe Min told him? It's unclear.

Well he has memories of things Lews Therin did, which confirms to the audience that he's the Dragon.

How Rand himself was able to conclude that he's the Dragon, I've got no frigging idea. In the books he's still hoping it's not true right up until he gets Callandor.

[Rippounet]

4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

It seemed like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and a large amount of wasted power. 

It's not obvious in the scene, but of course the tsunami was really aimed at the (port) city the little girl was from, not the liitle girl herself.

2 hours ago, Darryk said:

Well he has memories of things Lews Therin did, which confirms to the audience that he's the Dragon.

Rand has the memories, so he has at least part of the Dragon's soul. Is that enough to make him the "Dragon reborn" ? Oddly enough, not per show-lore only.
But on second thought, I don't think the show will go there.

[BigFatCoward]

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

It's not obvious in the scene, but of course the tsunami was really aimed at the (port) city the little girl was from, not the liitle girl herself.

 

I think this is my biggest problem with the show. It seems to require a degree of knowledge of the story. 

[Werthead]

11 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

We don't have to. The answer is about 150 million, per RJ.

This presupposes that the population of the Age of Legends was comparable to our modern world.

I think it's much more likely - and supported by the apparent mastery of genetics, birth control etc in the AoL - that the population of the world in the AoL was waaay lower than it is now. Enough so that there were still millions to tens of millions of Aes Sedai, but probably not 300 million.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I think it's much more likely - and supported by the apparent mastery of genetics, birth control etc in the AoL - that the population of the world in the AoL was waaay lower than it is now.

With limitless energy, no pollution, mastery of the climate, no warfare and almost nonexistent violence, and super-agriculture, I'd actually guess the opposite and suppose the population was at least as large as our own. Probably larger, to be honest.

This obviously presents the problem of where all the evidence of the highly-populated AoL is, but "The Breaking" is as good an answer as any.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

This presupposes that the population of the Age of Legends was comparable to our modern world.

I think it's much more likely - and supported by the apparent mastery of genetics, birth control etc in the AoL - that the population of the world in the AoL was waaay lower than it is now. Enough so that there were still millions to tens of millions of Aes Sedai, but probably not 300 million.

The population was about 10 billion. I'll get the quote for ya.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

With limitless energy, no pollution, mastery of the climate, no warfare and almost nonexistent violence, and super-agriculture, I'd actually guess the opposite and suppose the population was at least as large as our own. Probably larger, to be honest.

Demographically, that would be offset by the fact that when women have equal access to education, employment and opportunity (which was the case in the Age of Legends waaaaay more than it is in reality), they don't have as many children, and in fact don't have enough children to replace the existing population. That's why population trends in many Western and more equal Asian countries - where such opportunities exist, or are getting there - are already raising massive alarm bells, even in overpopulated China, whilst places like Africa are seeing a massive population explosion.

It might be that a high population is possible if there was a widespread programme of genetic engineering or some kind of exowomb technology, but that is never mentioned as a thing.

Of course, the greater lifespan in the Age of Legends (150-200 years for non-channellers, 700-800 years for channellers) would mitigate that to some extent, but probably not over the many thousands of years that the Age of Legends lasted in total.

[fionwe1987]

19 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Demographically, that would be offset by the fact that when women have equal access to education, employment and opportunity (which was the case in the Age of Legends waaaaay more than it is in reality), they don't have as many children, and in fact don't have enough children to replace the existing population. That's why population trends in many Western and more equal Asian countries - where such opportunities exist, or are getting there - are already raising massive alarm bells, even in overpopulated China, whilst places like Africa are seeing a massive population explosion.

That demographic trend isn't destiny, just a signal that while women have been given access to education and jobs, men haven't been pushed enough to take up domestic responsibilities. 

Taking the gender utopia of the Age of Legends at face value, there's no reason to assume a gendered view of caregiving necessarily existed.

[Cas Stark]

I finished the first book, still meh.  Some of the stuff about the ways, and the back story on breaking the world started to get interesting, but his writing style is fairly pedestrian.

Nynaeve was considerably more likeable in the show, while I thought they did a terrible job with Perrin, casting, story, everything.  Egwene was just as bland and so far useless in both mediums.  And having read the book, the show made some odd choices. 

I guess I will watch the next season, not sure I will read the next book.  I remain surprised that the Jordan series has sold 90+ million copies.

 

[Ran]

25 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That demographic trend isn't destiny, just a signal that while women have been given access to education and jobs, men haven't been pushed enough to take up domestic responsibilities. 

Taking the gender utopia of the Age of Legends at face value, there's no reason to assume a gendered view of caregiving necessarily existed.

Indeed. Even countries fairly close to gender equality and who seem to have high levels of support for families can probably do more than they are, and all these things clearly have material effects. Not enough, one may say, but then we don't live in a time of post-scarcity.

Of particular note is that in the worldbook it notes that it's a really good thing they had really reliable birth control, suggesting that certainly the AoL reached an equilibrium of some sort and managed to maintain replacement-level birth rates.

 

 

[Ran]

53 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I remain surprised that the Jordan series has sold 90+ million copies.

So they say, anyways. I remain dubious.

They definitely made some very odd choices in how to adapt it to the screen. 

 

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I finished the first book, still meh.  Some of the stuff about the ways, and the back story on breaking the world started to get interesting, but his writing style is fairly pedestrian.

Nynaeve was considerably more likeable in the show, while I thought they did a terrible job with Perrin, casting, story, everything.  Egwene was just as bland and so far useless in both mediums.  And having read the book, the show made some odd choices. 

I guess I will watch the next season, not sure I will read the next book.  I remain surprised that the Jordan series has sold 90+ million copies.

 

Like I say, if you read it at the right time in your life (18 years old in my case, when the only other fantasy I'd read was Tolkien and Raymond E. Feist), it's pure magic.

I personally found Egwene to be the most annoying character in the history of literature, and Nynaeve not that far behind. They're both more likeable in the series, because I get to see them as actual people, whereas in the books the way they're written just makes them feel like caricatures. 

 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Indeed. Even countries fairly close to gender equality and who seem to have high levels of support for families can probably do more than they are, and all these things clearly have material effects. Not enough, one may say, but then we don't live in a time of post-scarcity.

Yep. We aren't post scarcity, and we've barely begun to deal with patriarchy and capitalism. Neither of these structures existed in the Age of Legends, though it certainly wasn't in want of other heirarchies. 

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Of particular note is that in the worldbook it notes that it's a really good thing they had really reliable birth control, suggesting that certainly the AoL reached an equilibrium of some sort and managed to maintain replacement-level birth rates.

Yeah. There are times when you see flashes of genuine feminism in RJ's writing, and this is one such place. The Third Age has continued, broad access to birth control, and we see plenty of societies where female sexuality and sexual activity is way more liberal than even we've managed to achieve in 2021. Not that he does this perfectly or anything. This is the non-spoiler thread, so I'll just note that I'm not saying he handles sexuality or sexual violence that well, but he's certainly better than 99% of male authors in recognizing and showing women as sexual beings no different from men, even if places like the Two Rivers are inexplicably prudish, and here I feel the show wisely updated that stuff. 

[SpaceChampion]

13 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

What the fuck was that last scene about? 

 

[Jace, Extat]

8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

It's not obvious in the scene, but of course the tsunami was really aimed at the (port) city the little girl was from, not the liitle girl herself.

 

There was no port, there was no city. They tidal bombed a single little girl. 

If you wanna be generous in your interpretation of the scene, it is possible that the *cough* Seanchan *cough* characters were just showing off for the cameras and crew. It might save the series if the Seanchan have mockumentary crews following them around, like in The Office.

"Howdy, y'all! It's ya girl Tuon! We 'bout to go on yonder for the Corenne. Hailene forever, don't forget to smash that 'like' button pardners!"

[Wouter]

12 hours ago, Darryk said:

Well he has memories of things Lews Therin did, which confirms to the audience that he's the Dragon.

How Rand himself was able to conclude that he's the Dragon, I've got no frigging idea. In the books he's still hoping it's not true right up until he gets Callandor.

He was pressured into accepting it, because he was told only the DR could survive the confrontation and he didn't want his friends to die when he suspected he was the one. And the trip to the Eye only seems to have confirmed it.

 

 

 

I was rather disappointed in the final episode.

As others have written is the opening scene a curious choice, presenting Lews Therin as someone who is 100%  wrong and Latra Posae as the wise councillor who is 100% right and accurately predicts what will happen. With nary a hint that there is a war going on. A very unfortunate choice.

During the episode, Agelmar was also given rather poor treatment, in favour of the Aes Sedai who did not support him in the books, whereas here they made it explicit (having implied in the penultimate episode) that he did not want help. Admittedly, this was probably necessary to save Siuan as a character and to keep at least the facade of the White Tower being a competent organisation (which is important for the coming seasons), and Agelmar is a relatively small character.

With the unfortunate absence of Matt, Perrin seemingly being paralysed with inaction, Nynaeve rather implausibly telling Lan how to do his job and Rand so far failing to "shine as bright as the sun", it was the women who got to do everything of note this time (with exception of Rand's confrontation with Ishy).

While Perrin and Matt no doubt will improve next season, I wonder when Rand will have the opportunity to show something that even begins to compare with what Nynaeve has done so far. Depending on what they do with Rand, this may have to wait until Tear, with Callandor.

The many fake-out deaths were annoying in this episode, Nynaeve's apparent (by visuals and Egwene's reaction) death being the most egregious example. However, not only will Loial survive, it may be Uno will survive his wound from the fade as the actor is apparently supposed to be in season 2. At this rate, I wonder if even Agelmar can definitely be counted as being dead.

A small point, but I also disliked Rand's story about running off with Egwene. Out of character for both IMO, considering both had a good rapport with their parents (and this was not changed for the show) and Tam obviously was supportive of his involvement with Egwene.

On the flip side, the idea to save the day by using Nynaeve's and Egwene's mega channeling power without them doing the actual channeling was good.

Ishamael was excellent; the actor was very convincing in the role and the entire confrontation between Rand and Ishy was well done and IMO true to the books in spirit. It looks like Ishy manipulated Siuan (and by extension, Moiraine) into bringing the DR to the Eye (which may be a hall of the servants equivalent of the Age of Legends in the show, I suppose, given that there was a direct confrontation between Ishy and Lews Therin there), and once he was there Ishy was going to win no matter what. He didn't turn Rand, but his smile after Rand turned on him - and the broken seal afterwards - was telling. It looks like Ishy is a competent villain.

I also liked Padan Fain. Like all the Darkfriends so far, he seems to have a quasi-philosophical reason to be a Dark Friend, allthough his "balance" explanation doesn't make much sense as his boss wants to extinguish the light anyway. He's a terrifying villain anyway, and I wonder if he will be his own thing independent of the DO in S2 and later, as he is in the books.

I don't much like some of the implications of the way the season ended. Moiraine being stilled (?) implies that S2 will spend time on her coping with that (and it getting healed, probably) during S2, whereas they could also, have chosen to just add (channeling) Moiraine on one of the running storylines (with Perrin, most likely). Now, time spent on Moiraine will not be spent on the EF5.

Rand faking his death and seemingly entering his book 3 storyline means, unless it's another fakeout and he will be back with the group by the end of S2E01, that he will not get a journey with Ingtar and the Shienaran soldiers (of which few will be left in or near Fal Dara anyway). A pity, as turning Ingtar was a major point for him in the books.

The "flicker" scene is likely also shelved (as we saw a small aspect of it in Rand's temptation by Ishy in the final episode). And I wonder when and how Rand will finally meet Elayne in the show; unless Elayne isn't in the Tower yet and he meets her in Cairhien (Barthanes was cast, and this set of book scenes probably is difficult to transfer from Rand to either Matt or Perrin) on his way to Tear, it may be that they only meet once Rand is already openly the DR.

It's also the question if they plan to do both Falme - with the wondergirls and maybe Perrin and/or Matt, but without physical presence of Rand - and Tear (with Rand and Moiraine?) in S2.

The way they ended the season does leave the door open for Selene to start influencing Rand right from the start of S2. Possibly with the use of Portal Stones or the Ways.

The horn exists in the show. Of all the things they changed, I would have preferred the horn to be scrapped as it seems a rather cheesy element.

Speaking of cheesy, the Seanchan at the end also were pretty cheesy. Especially the appareance and gestures of the sul'dam and the nuking on an almost empty beach. Not the sort of visually spectacular but seemingly braindead scenes I would like to see on the show.

 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

She was playing with rocks instead of WATCHING!

[Corvinus85]

The unleashing of a tsunami on an empty beach where we think there should be a town reminds a bit of GoT season 2 when Stannis and Renly have their meeting on an empty cliff near the sea, followed by Davos taking Melisandre to an underground gate which we have no idea where it leads because the castle of Storm's End was never actually shown. And Renly was in his camp, anyways. 

[A True Kaniggit]

What I thought was weird about the Seanchan wave is it makes them seem genocidal.

They came to conquer, not exterminate everyone. 

[karaddin]

It made me think they ran out of CGI budget for the town or a defending army, and when picking between one of those and the tidal wave they picked the tidal wave. I'd have picked the town lol.