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The Wheel of Time TV: Ta'veren Tango (Book Spoilers)


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7 hours ago, Wouter said:

The horn exists in the show. Of all the things they changed, I would have preferred the horn to be scrapped as it seems a rather cheesy element.

I'm with you, but people love it. I thought I read that Rafe was the one fighting to keep this in the script when the other writers were questioning it.

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Perhaps removing it would have had knock on effects down the road that would have disrupted what he was planning, or maybe he just thinks it can be done in a less cheesey way on screen - and maybe it can, I have no idea. Or maybe he just likes it haha.

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Honestly, I don't see how they do the Horn without cheese and I've been hoping they drop it from Day 1. That does complicate the Birgitte issue if they keep her, but I think that could be worked around. I know it's beloved by lots of people, though, so good luck to the writers. It is also a good macguffin to chase and involve the Sheinarans, which has some nice payoffs. Not strictly speaking essential, but very flavorful. I hope they figure out some way for Rand and the Sheinarans to interact. Maybe Rand crosses paths briefly to make an impression and then he's off again? Who knows. They have a plan and we'll see it eventually.

And speaking of TAR, there's a whole lot there that ... I don't know how they are going to handle. I like it as a concept, but there was sooo much of it in the books and Perrin and Eg became so OP in TAR by the end that it just fell apart for me. It felt like there were no limits and thus no tension. Eg defeating Messana (I think) by casting feeble mind on her killed my last bit of good will towards TAR battles.

And then we have the Slayer/Luc situation. So fucking much they have to figure out. It's not an enviable job. 

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13 hours ago, karaddin said:

It made me think they ran out of CGI budget for the town or a defending army, and when picking between one of those and the tidal wave they picked the tidal wave. I'd have picked the town lol.

Just, I was just rewatching that scene and it does feel weird. Although I noticed what I hadn't before that the front of the boat the damane we see in close-up are on is modelled after a torm's face (possibly a grolm, actually, but one of the exotics with three eyes). That's a nice attention to detail.

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2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

And then we have the Slayer/Luc situation. So fucking much they have to figure out. It's not an enviable job. 

Considering how much of the Malkier story got cut or changed, I can see them not bother with connecting Isam with Lan. It doesn't come to anything in the books, either.

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Well, I am glad that I spoiled myself before watching this episode, and in the end I liked it more than I expected to. Much of what I disliked about it was clearly the result of Covid and Harris leaving.

However, they did very much hurt Lan's character by having to drop fights that he was clearly supposed to have (IIRC Henney even spoke about training his swordsmanship for fights at the end of the season in some clips?) and then, by inexplicably making him ask for Nyn's help in tracking Moiraine. I was on board with most changes to his character (not the mourning scene, though), but they really failed to showcase his being a warrior paragon. 

And fake deaths/"ressurection" also hurt the episode for no good reason that I can see, while also making Nyn's and Eg's abilities too samey. They tried to give the 3 boys different backgrounds to distinguish them from each other, but are doing the opposite with the girls' channeling skills? Eh.

Also, they failed to portray the Blight as sufficently dangerous - they should have had Moiraine point out a couple of deadly plants and have her secure their resting place with the One Power before just plopping down, for instance.

Anyway, I still liked the show on the whole, even if it didn't stick the landing.

 

However, what reprecussions for the future will all the changes have?

I understand why they felt that there had to be some lasting price to a main character - but what does Moiraine's shielding/(stilling?) and learning to live without the One Power mean for Siuan's plotline? Will she get killed in the coup now? But then, wouldn't this be "bury your gays" trope? And where will Moiraine and Lan go? Frankly, I feel that they should just follow Rand, because once she realised that it was "only the first battle", Moiraine had no more reason to mislead Lan about his fate, but would very much prefer it to remain a mystery to everybody else. Also, I assume that she'd want to keep her affliction a secret and a trek through the Blight with a powerless woman in tow would finally allow Lan to show his chops as the greatest warder. After they come out, Moiraine might figure out what had happened via research and identify some newly free Forsaken through her Eyes and Ears network? And if she is shielded, Rand will free her later in the season, I guess.

According to the showrunner Rand is on his TDR plot, so I'd expect some more detailed nightmares  sent by Ishy. But he will also meet Selene. I don't expect the Portal Stones and worlds of If to be included - so the most economical way for him to meet her in the circumstances similar to the ones in TGH would be in the Blight, where she'd play somebody who had been carried off by the Shadowspawn and he would feel honor-bound to "rescue" and "protect" her. She'd surreptitiously lead him out, cause him to channel, make him doubt that the Last Battle is done  and point him at Callandor. Depending on where he comes out, he might have some of his Cahirien adventures and maybe run into some visiting Trakands while there? And possibly Moiraine? Before heading to Tear where he'll have the big fight with Ishy that will somehow be seen in the skies all over the land. Not sure if the Seanchan will be involved there or not.

In the meantime, I expect the girls to fail at healing Loial and other wounded back at Fal Dara, showing them that they need to learn channeling, and for Verin to trundle in and do it, but in Loial's case only as a temporary measure. In fact, Nyn's block may now be caused by the fact that surrendering to an outside force nearly killed her and Egs. They will go to Tar Valon. Before the season 1 finale I hoped that season 2 will open with them already having spent some time there, but I don't see how it can work now, so I guess that their training in the WT will be even more rushed than in the books. Whether Liandrin will be the one to lure them out like she does in TGH or Ishy via Egwene's dreams, like he does in TDR, I don't know. Showrunner already said that Egwene will get collared, like in the books, so I expect the girls' plot to be the most similar to the canon. I am just unsure how Elayne  will be incorporated. Oh, and she'll have only one brother in the show, I am pretty sure. I thought that the whole Falme plot might be transferred to Tear, but given the hints from the show bonus materials this doesn't seem to be the case. Will the WT coup also happen in season 2? I dunno, it already seems to be pretty overloaded, but we'll see.

Perrin and Loial would be the ones on the Horn hunt, joined by Ingtar, Hurin/Elias combo, Uno and possibly Verin. They may run into Faile en route, or she might come to Fal Dara belatedly leading Saldean reinforcements to help against the assault on the Gap before they even set out. Perrin will largely take over Rand's TGH plot and learn about the wolves.

Mat will mainly have his TDR plot, with the difference that Siuan or Thom will rescue him from the Reds, I guess. OTOH, he'll go to save the girls from Falme (after learning about their danger in similar manner), likely re-uniting with Perrin. Because the 4EFs are so connected to the Dragon, the Horn will work even without Rand being there, to everybody's surprise.

Hm, or Mat may be still be confined to the Tower and join the girls when they hare off to Falme instead? Braving the Ways after bowing out previously and saving Nyn and El from collaring in the first place? It would make more sense for Mat to sneak into damane kennels climbing over the roofs than for Min to be officially allowed to visit or live after Suroth and Liandrin chatted about their DF secrets in front of her.  Hm. And he could re-unite with Perrin once Perrin is in the neighbourhood.

There is something to be said for Min having a chance to meet Rand again instead of running to Tar Valon and then Falme. If the coup happens in the 3rd season, Moiraine can send her to Siuan from Tear. OTOH, if Siuan dies in the coup, Min doesn't need to go there at all... Logain can escape on his own.

IMHO, YMMV.

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I just finished the season and my though can basically be summed up as meh. There was nothing particularly special about it, and having only read a few of the books a long ass time ago, that is more or less what I needed out of it to scratch the itch. There was some cool stuff and there was some dumb stuff, though there was certainly not enough braid tugging (I seem to remember that a pivotal element in the books), and at the end of the day, I can't say I regret the eight hours I spent watching it.

One thing that did throw me off was, through no fault of his, every time I saw The Dark One/Ishamael all I could think of was Nandor the Relentless after a hair and beard trim. It's probably just because my brain has been broken spending way too much time alone in the last almost 2 years, but whenever I saw him come on the screen I half expected to see Guillermo or Colin Robinson wonder into frame at some point.

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40 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I just finished the season and my though can basically be summed up as meh. There was nothing particularly special about it, and having only read a few of the books a long ass time ago, that is more or less what I needed out of it to scratch the itch. There was some cool stuff and there was some dumb stuff, though there was certainly not enough braid tugging (I seem to remember that a pivotal element in the books), and at the end of the day, I can't say I regret the eight hours I spent watching it.

One thing that did throw me off was, through no fault of his, every time I saw The Dark One/Ishamael all I could think of was Nandor the Relentless after a hair and beard trim. It's probably just because my brain has been broken spending way too much time alone in the last almost 2 years, but whenever I saw him come on the screen I half expected to see Guillermo or Colin Robinson wonder into frame at some point.

It did occur to me that Nadja is basically a Forsaken: she storms into whatever scene is in progress, talks about how awesome she is and how great things were back in the day, makes some vaguely sexually inappropriate comment, kills some bystander and flounces out, all the while looking great in a retro-chic kind of way.

I could see Matt Berry as Asmodean as well (almost seriously, he's had a couple of serious roles). Berry being a professional musician is something that they could use.

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the books as published are as though robert jordan were colin robinson. somewhere in a stasis box, a non-vampiric version of these texts has been hidden away, condensed down to an actual trilogy, and it is the best post-tolkienian fantasy ever written.

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On 12/31/2021 at 4:20 PM, Gertrude said:

Honestly, I don't see how they do the Horn without cheese and I've been hoping they drop it from Day 1. That does complicate the Birgitte issue if they keep her, but I think that could be worked around. I know it's beloved by lots of people, though, so good luck to the writers. It is also a good macguffin to chase and involve the Sheinarans, which has some nice payoffs. Not strictly speaking essential, but very flavorful. I hope they figure out some way for Rand and the Sheinarans to interact. Maybe Rand crosses paths briefly to make an impression and then he's off again? Who knows. They have a plan and we'll see it eventually.

And speaking of TAR, there's a whole lot there that ... I don't know how they are going to handle. I like it as a concept, but there was sooo much of it in the books and Perrin and Eg became so OP in TAR by the end that it just fell apart for me. It felt like there were no limits and thus no tension. Eg defeating Messana (I think) by casting feeble mind on her killed my last bit of good will towards TAR battles.

And then we have the Slayer/Luc situation. So fucking much they have to figure out. It's not an enviable job. 

Slayer/Luc is probably an easy cut, the threat to the Two Rivers can be generic shadowspawn (with the Whitecloaks).

I also hope TAR will be simplified and limited, in any case TAR at it is in the books would be hard to film (with constantly changing environments and clothes).

The thing I liked about the Horn, was it function as a McGuffin that led to it being chased by Rand, Perrin, Matt and the Shienarans. Even the end of the books is not merely about the use of the Horn, but it is about Ingtar's confession and sacrifice, Rand's victory over Turak, and the desperate situation that led to Matt using the horn prematurely. Now, we seem to have the horn, but maybe just with Perrin and a few Shienaran, while Rand may be doing something else entirely. A choice I regret, for the moment at least.

20 hours ago, Maia said:

However, they did very much hurt Lan's character by having to drop fights that he was clearly supposed to have (IIRC Henney even spoke about training his swordsmanship for fights at the end of the season in some clips?) and then, by inexplicably making him ask for Nyn's help in tracking Moiraine. I was on board with most changes to his character (not the mourning scene, though), but they really failed to showcase his being a warrior paragon. 

However, what reprecussions for the future will all the changes have?

I understand why they felt that there had to be some lasting price to a main character - but what does Moiraine's shielding/(stilling?) and learning to live without the One Power mean for Siuan's plotline? Will she get killed in the coup now? But then, wouldn't this be "bury your gays" trope? And where will Moiraine and Lan go? Frankly, I feel that they should just follow Rand, because once she realised that it was "only the first battle", Moiraine had no more reason to mislead Lan about his fate, but would very much prefer it to remain a mystery to everybody else.

 

Agreed on Lan. I generally like the way Daniel Henney is portraying the character, but we do miss some moments where he shows how capable he is as a warder/warrior (and also his instructions for Rand). Even though I do not mislike most of the Steppin/Lan scenes, I could have done without the mourning scene. I'm not a fan of such prescribed exagerrated mourning rituals in real life, either.

Rafe Judkins has stated that some fan favourites will die early in the show, that this is needed because of budgetary reasons (impossible to keep a large number of actors/actresses for years). He noted this while confirming that Loial will survive his stab wounds from the S1 finale. Given the context of his comment, Siuan Sanche (played by a noted actress) seems a prime suspect for being among those, as she could die in the coup (or be murdered by the Black Ajah).

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30 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Rafe Judkins has stated that some fan favourites will die early in the show, that this is needed because of budgetary reasons (impossible to keep a large number of actors/actresses for years).

That doesn't sound good. Find it hard to believe Amazon doesn't have the budget to support a large ensemble cast.

My guess is Moraine will die instead of being stuck in that portal then, which is a shame, cause the part where Mat rescued her was pretty bad ass.

 

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22 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Rafe Judkins has stated that some fan favourites will die early in the show, that this is needed because of budgetary reasons (impossible to keep a large number of actors/actresses for years). He noted this while confirming that Loial will survive his stab wounds from the S1 finale. Given the context of his comment, Siuan Sanche (played by a noted actress) seems a prime suspect for being among those, as she could die in the coup (or be murdered by the Black Ajah).

This sounds pretty bad tbh and makes me even more worried about the show though I wonder how much of that comment is to generate speculation/a sense of danger in fans who are familiar with the level of plot armour in the books, especially since Judkins seems overly fond of fakeout deaths. While it seems clear that he hasn't I wouldn't really mind if Loial did die though - I think his actor has done a good job with what he's been given and his voice and physical acting have been on point for the character but I'm still not sold on the costume/practical effects, and he doesn't actually contribute that much to the plot.

Really though I'll be pretty cross if Siuan is murdered. Not only because for a supposedly progressive show they've already fridged a wife, and if they start burying gays too I'll have even more questions about the skills of the writers and what the fuck they're trying to say, but also because I like the character and her arc, and I'd really like to see the long awaited Moiraine - Siuan reunion that Sanderson forgot to write. If someone has to die in the coup it should be Leane, as much as I actually find her to be an interesting character she's much more able to be easily ejected from the plot. I also wonder if they're going to kill of Alanna rather than have her forced bonding of him. Liandrin I can definitely see dying once she's outstayed her usefulness, if she isn't combined with Elaida, since in the books she just hangs around for most of the series as a window into the doings of various forsaken/darkfriends after she tries to backstab Moghedien and gets smacked down and punished for it, ending up with one of those trademark Jordan terrible fate / "karmic punishment" for a bad woman.

Also if Siuan is in danger then so is Logain, which I think would piss off an equally large number of people and leave me wondering why they bothered to hire Morte and give him a role worth having in the first season.

Frankly if one of the major characters has to go I'd rather it be Thom - I think while Willaume's Thom is clearly different to books Thom his performance has been excellent and I really liked both episodes he was in, but moving towards the end of the series he doesn't actually have a ton to do and I was never a fan of the out of nowhere Thom-Moiraine thing, especially with the awkward implication that both Moiraina and Siuan were only waiting around to find the right men, what with Siuan falling for Bryne too. Get rid of both of those romances and keep Siuan/Moiraine.

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45 minutes ago, Darryk said:

That doesn't sound good. Find it hard to believe Amazon doesn't have the budget to support a large ensemble cast.

My guess is Moraine will die instead of being stuck in that portal then, which is a shame, cause the part where Mat rescued her was pretty bad ass.

 

Here, it is stated “Hopefully, the finale will prepare people emotionally for the deaths that will come,” Judkins noted. “Because one thing The Wheel of Time books do so beautifully is they maintain a massive cast of characters for 14 books. And we can’t do that in a television show. So, there will be shocking deaths to come, but I can confirm that this is not the end of Loial.”"

In addition, in this CBR interview Judkins noted "No. I can't wait to kill surprising people that are going to really pain book fans in their deepest heart of hearts, but Loial is not dead in the finale of Season 1."

It's quite possible that Moiraine will not come back after the portal, but is also possible she returns much sooner than in the books. Rosamund Pike is a co-producer on the show, which might change the equation as she is more closely involved.

35 minutes ago, Poobah said:

This sounds pretty bad tbh and makes me even more worried about the show though I wonder how much of that comment is to generate speculation/a sense of danger in fans who are familiar with the level of plot armour in the books, especially since Judkins seems overly fond of fakeout deaths. While it seems clear that he hasn't I wouldn't really mind if Loial did die though - I think his actor has done a good job with what he's been given and his voice and physical acting have been on point for the character but I'm still not sold on the costume/practical effects, and he doesn't actually contribute that much to the plot.

Really though I'll be pretty cross if Siuan is murdered. Not only because for a supposedly progressive show they've already fridged a wife, and if they start burying gays too I'll have even more questions about the skills of the writers and what the fuck they're trying to say, but also because I like the character and her arc, and I'd really like to see the long awaited Moiraine - Siuan reunion that Sanderson forgot to write. If someone has to die in the coup it should be Leane, as much as I actually find her to be an interesting character she's much more able to be easily ejected from the plot. I also wonder if they're going to kill of Alanna rather than have her forced bonding of him. Liandrin I can definitely see dying once she's outstayed her usefulness, if she isn't combined with Elaida, since in the books she just hangs around for most of the series as a window into the doings of various forsaken/darkfriends after she tries to backstab Moghedien and gets smacked down and punished for it, ending up with one of those trademark Jordan terrible fate / "karmic punishment" for a bad woman.

Also if Siuan is in danger then so is Logain, which I think would piss off an equally large number of people and leave me wondering why they bothered to hire Morte and give him a role worth having in the first season.

Frankly if one of the major characters has to go I'd rather it be Thom - I think while Willaume's Thom is clearly different to books Thom his performance has been excellent and I really liked both episodes he was in, but moving towards the end of the series he doesn't actually have a ton to do and I was never a fan of the out of nowhere Thom-Moiraine thing, especially with the awkward implication that both Moiraina and Siuan were only waiting around to find the right men, what with Siuan falling for Bryne too. Get rid of both of those romances and keep Siuan/Moiraine.

Logain and Thom are probably also both at risk, though Thom has the advantage that his actor is relatively unknown and thus probably not quite as expensive.  If Liandrin is a black ajah who gets involved with Falme like she does in the books (rather than an Elaida-replacement), she seems an obvious candidate to be killed off.

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2 hours ago, Wouter said:

In addition, in this CBR interview Judkins noted "No. I can't wait to kill surprising people that are going to really pain book fans in their deepest heart of hearts, but Loial is not dead in the finale of Season 1."

He really sounds like a dick, don't buy that he's a fan of the books as he claims.

So he's not just emulating Dan Benioff and DB Weiss' egomania in thinking they can adapt books in such a haphazard way, he wants to share their sadistic joy in killing off characters too?

Can imagine the three of them gathering around a table and drinking vodka as they celebrate how many fans they pissed off.

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Well like they said you can’t cast actors and then say you don’t need them for four more years. Problem is Jordan did that all the time wirh characters and it doesn’t work for film.

Not even getting into that I welcome the change in general. A problem with WoT is the same as it is with Marvel. Almost all villains are cartoon tropes and very few characters get killed. Until the last battle the body count among good characters with actual speaking roles is miniscule. And the forsaken are a bunch of amateur idiots getting defeated over and over again. One thing I think was an improvement over the books is the villains so far. Ishamael, Fain, Liandrin and the white cloaks are all a step up from the books.

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4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Padan Fain had the SL dagger and used it on Loial, and Loial survives? FFS. I suppose that means the dagger won't be anywhere near as dangerous as in the books.

I honestly don't remember how the dagger works in the books, but the only thing I can think of is that the evil in the dagger is a human evil, right? Loial isn't human, so I can see a way for them to fudge that and have Loial resist it better.

I'd be upset if they killed off Siuan in the coup. I am looking forward to having her and Logain on the run after we got to see their confrontation in the Tower. I also like her mentorship of Egwene, although in the books it is more necessary for Siuan to teach her how to lead, while the show wraps her in ta'veren. Either works, but I prefer the mentorship.

And I've seen so many people taking Rafe's comment about killing off characters in the worst possible light. I've heard Rafe speak, he seems passionate about this project and the books, and my interpretation is that it's half joking, half preparing fans for the realities of a TV adaptation. I'm also tired of people disparaging Rafe as "No True Fan". No two people have the same interpretation and love for the books, and whenever someone you disagree with calls themselves a fan, it's shot down with 'but you're not a REAL fan', like me". It's part of the reason why internet discussion about this series is exhausting,

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4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I honestly don't remember how the dagger works in the books, but the only thing I can think of is that the evil in the dagger is a human evil, right? Loial isn't human, so I can see a way for them to fudge that and have Loial resist it better.

I'd be upset if they killed off Siuan in the coup. I am looking forward to having her and Logain on the run after we got to see their confrontation in the Tower. I also like her mentorship of Egwene, although in the books it is more necessary for Siuan to teach her how to lead, while the show wraps her in ta'veren. Either works, but I prefer the mentorship.

And I've seen so many people taking Rafe's comment about killing off characters in the worst possible light. I've heard Rafe speak, he seems passionate about this project and the books, and my interpretation is that it's half joking, half preparing fans for the realities of a TV adaptation. I'm also tired of people disparaging Rafe as "No True Fan". No two people have the same interpretation and love for the books, and whenever someone you disagree with calls themselves a fan, it's shot down with 'but you're not a REAL fan', like me". It's part of the reason why internet discussion about this series is exhausting,

Shadowspawn aren't human either and are affected by the evils of Shadar Loggoth. Getting even a small cut from that dagger kills a person almost instantly in a horrible way. Rand gets the luck of the ta'veren when Fain cuts him over the other wound. It's possible Loial will be affected differently, but it would be ridiculous if there is no effect, and we see him be fine next season. The whole Mat thing screwed things up so much.

Imo, a character who doesn't serve an immediate purpose to the plot shouldn't have to be killed off, just remove them from the story. See The Expanse as an example, where characters like Anna and Prax simply left the story, they were not killed off. Agelmar didn't need to die (maybe he's not dead). He hardly shows up anyway again until he is one of the great captains leading armies at the Last Battle. That being said, if a character's death serves a purpose, go for it.

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4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I honestly don't remember how the dagger works in the books, but the only thing I can think of is that the evil in the dagger is a human evil, right? Loial isn't human, so I can see a way for them to fudge that and have Loial resist it better.

It would definitely be a change from the books, but given they've already gone with "the dagger is feeding off the darkness in Mat" I'm fine with it essentially "charging up" as it feeds on Fain. Alternatively rather than being due to feeding off him, it can be as he turns into a Fain/Mordeth hybrid the dagger is more effective. And neither of those are mutually exclusive with your explanation.

ETA: I really doubt Agelmar is dead. They made a point of him using "his", ie presumably battle not ceremonial, armour. The spear hit him center of the armour, we see no blood and we don't see him start to die on screen - just that he's hit. And we don't cut back to the fort again.

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