The Wheel of Time TV: Ta'veren Tango (Book Spoilers)

[Poobah]

13 hours ago, Rubicante said:

After reading all of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Wheel of Time series was recommended to me.  I read all of the books up to Crossroads of Twilight, and then couldn't stand the series anymore (I actually threw the book across the room).  The show has almost made me want to finish reading the series, but I decided on Fool's Errand by Robin Hobb instead (which I just started reading).  

Is it actually worth finishing reading the series?  And if so, does anyone have any suggestions on how to read Crossroads of Twilight without going insane?

Yeah I mostly agree with Wert, generally even in the hardcore fandom the debate was never really what the worst book was but just how bad Crossroads of Twilight is. If you can make it through, or read a synopsis of the few things that happen in it and get on to Knife of Dreams it is a much stronger book / return to form for Jordan, which I'm glad he managed to do because CoT would really have tainted his legacy if it'd have been his last main series book. And yeah despite his faults and the obvious difficulties of the task Sanderson did manage to take what there was of Jordan's notes/guidelines/whatever and deliver an on the whole pretty good and satisfying ending to the series that wraps up many of the dangling threads and mysteries.

[Slurktan]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

10 is, by far, the worst book in the series. 11 is a surprisingly robust attempt by Jordan to get the series back-on-track and it's definitely one of the more laudable attempts I've seen by an author to respond to constructive criticism and fix problems identified by readers, and he does so very well (GRRM I believe did start doing something similar with ADWD as well, if less successfully). If 10 had been Jordan's last book, I think the attitude to the series being left incomplete would have been very different. However, 11 showed that Jordan had wrestled the monster back under control with surprising discipline and people were much more confident about the ending.

12-14 are obviously hamstrung somewhat by Sanderson taking over, not necessarily getting every character right and also being extremely rushed by the publisher. Taken within those limitations, I think they do an admirable job of finishing the series off and delivering a worthwhile ending.

I'd say Winter's Heart is the worst in the series by a long stretch but then again I think what he was going for in CoT was interesting (even if he failed at it) while as WH is just boring repetitive filler to an extremely rushed ending.

[Maithanet]

14 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Is it actually worth finishing reading the series?  And if so, does anyone have any suggestions on how to read Crossroads of Twilight without going insane?

Seriously, just read a detailed chapter synopsis online.  That's what I did (I did it for a few of the chapters in books 8-9 too, but you made it through those, so congrats.)  You're not writing a masters thesis on these books, just get through the bad part and get to the parts that are actually worth reading.  I'm not as high on book 11 as many WoT fans, but it is clearly better than books 8-10, and has some strong parts to go with the weaker ones.  Book 12 is very good, the best book since book 5 IMO. 

[fionwe1987]

There are some good chapters in CoT you should read, but you can manage with chapter summaries for the rest.

I agree Cost to KoD is a huge jump in quality. Knife of Dreams has some excellent chapters that span a lot of time and manage to convey the essence of the story in a way that would have taken multiple chapters in some previous books. The sole Egwene chapter in the book being perhaps the prime example of this, though Mat and Nynaeve also get excellent chapters that do the same thing. Elayne's arc wraps up, and actually threatens to get interesting, for a while. The Faile-Shaido storyline also wraps up, and far better than I could have hoped before the book came out.

[Caligula_K3]

Crossroads of Twilight is definitely the worst book. But I can't say that I ever felt that Knife of Dreams was a real return to form. Sure, some stuff happens, but that's kind of the baseline for any book to be enjoyable - or at least a plot-focused epic fantasy novel. For example (spoilers for the Perrin plotline)
 

Spoiler

Yes, Perrin finally rescues his wife. That is slightly more enjoyable than reading about Perrin planning to rescue his wife, but it's still not an interesting plotline at all, imo.

And I don't think the ending of the series makes it worth reading through the slog. The Gathering Storm, Sanderson's first book, is actually pretty good. But the final book is just as bloated as some of the earlier books in the series, just now with never-ending Trolloc fighting scenes instead of dress and tea descriptions. There also wasn't really much emotional payoff in the book to justify the 800 pages of battle scenes, not to mention the thousands of earlier pages of set up.

As for the show, I finally finished season 1. Pretty mediocre, all in all. It's such a disjointed show that it makes it hard to care about anything that's happening - only the Aes Sedai politics had any real life or development. Rosamund Pike tried her best, but unless the show gets much better reviews in season 2 (which could happen - Witcher Season 2 was much better than Season 1), I think I'll stop watching.

[Gertrude]

58 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

And I don't think the ending of the series makes it worth reading through the slog. The Gathering Storm, Sanderson's first book, is actually pretty good. But the final book is just as bloated as some of the earlier books in the series, just now with never-ending Trolloc fighting scenes instead of dress and tea descriptions. There also wasn't really much emotional payoff in the book to justify the 800 pages of battle scenes, not to mention the thousands of earlier pages of set up.

Honestly, this would be my assessment. I made it through, but I'm still not sure the overall payoff was worth the read.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Crossroads of Twilight is definitely the worst book. But I can't say that I ever felt that Knife of Dreams was a real return to form. Sure, some stuff happens, but that's kind of the baseline for any book to be enjoyable - or at least a plot-focused epic fantasy novel. For example (spoilers for the Perrin plotline)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, Perrin finally rescues his wife. That is slightly more enjoyable than reading about Perrin planning to rescue his wife, but it's still not an interesting plotline at all, imo.

The highlight of that plot's ending

Spoiler

was the battle plan as it all came together with the Shaido Wise Ones incapacitated. Perrin was 90% a passenger, dealing with the consequences of his own inaction (Aram) and then killing the wrong guy, which I suppose we can give props to Jordan for not creating another love triangle.

 

[sologdin]

the bad love stories are parcel to YA, wherein inexpert teen lovers fumble their first attempts to conjugate corporeally. should've kept all that suppressed, like tolkien, or totally led with it, like the RSB.  no half measures. this is serious fucking serial fantasy business.

Spoiler

agreed regarding the asinine perrin marriage stuff. it was always skimmable.

 

[Arakasi]

On romance and how Jordan wrote it it was all crap. More details in spoilers:

Spoiler

All of it is skimmable. Every single one and there is hundreds if not thousands of pages describing it.

From worst to best:

1. Perrin/Faile - auto skip on reread tbh it was auto skim on initial read. Perhaps it’s not worse than 2/3 in this list but it’s so many pages.

2. Mat and Tylin - just awful.

3. Egwene and Gawyn - only slightly less awful.

4. Everything involving Berelain.

5. Rand and his harem. Especially the great stories where each of the girls has to grill the others on whether they’re worth of the Car’a’carn’s c**k. Elayne especially is awful and is devoid of any chemistry.

6. Mat and Tuon, just boring.

7. Thom and Moiraine which I guess thankful they never did much with but I am not sure if it was ever believable.

8.Siaun and Gareth not too boring but also somewhat annoying and forced.

For me Rand and Min and Lan and Nynaeve are the only decent romance in there.

 

[Darryk]

Remember when they asked Robert Jordan about the harem, hoping for some sophisticated reason as to why it was part of the story, and his answer was basically:

Spoiler

Well I had two girlfriends when I was a kid so I figured someone like Rand could probably have three.

 

I'm sure he was just trying to be funny, but the whole thing still felt pointless by the end of the story.

 

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I'm sure he was just trying to be funny, but the whole thing still felt pointless by the end of the story.

 

And two of the three relationships were barely relationships anyway.  He becomes friends with Aviendha, and then they have sex once, and then he barely even sees her again.  He and Elayne make out a few times and then he's gone for several books, and then they have sex once and she gets pregnant.  Aviendha and Elayne have way more of a relationship with each other as sister-wives than either of them do with Rand. 

It would just be way better to a modern reader (and I hope this is where the go in the show) if they just have Rand have a brief fling with Aviendha and Elayne, and then he ends up with Min.  Aviendha and Elayne can be single at the end of the series, no problem. 

[Gigei]

44 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Aviendha and Elayne can be single at the end of the series, no problem. 

That is

Spoiler

the actual ending.

 After all those books, the ending was a real letdown.

Spoiler

Rand becoming a deadbeat father and leaving everyone. What was even the point of the three gfs if he just ends up single, lol?

 

[fionwe1987]

21 minutes ago, Gigei said:

That is

  Hide contents

the actual ending.

 After all those books, the ending was a real letdown.

  Hide contents

Rand becoming a deadbeat father and leaving everyone. What was even the point of the three gfs if he just ends up single, lol?

 

The assumption is

Spoiler

He will go back to them. He goes away to take a break, not to abandon them, which he can't do anyway since any of them can find him wherever he is in the world, anyway. 

But yes, either they make this a proper polyamorous relationship, or change it so either Elayne and Aviendha end up together, or end up single, all of which works for me better than how the books handled it.

[Darryk]

20 minutes ago, Gigei said:

That is

  Reveal hidden contents

the actual ending.

 After all those books, the ending was a real letdown.

  Reveal hidden contents

Rand becoming a deadbeat father and leaving everyone. What was even the point of the three gfs if he just ends up single, lol?

 

What was also really weird was 

Spoiler

his soul transferring into Ishamael's body, just a weird direction to take the story

I like to think of the end of the book 12 as the real ending of the series, for me that was the pay off and the true victory.

[Poobah]

29 minutes ago, Gigei said:

  Hide contents

Rand becoming a deadbeat father and leaving everyone. What was even the point of the three gfs if he just ends up single, lol?

 

Spoiler

I never felt like he was abandoning them, just getting away from all the bullshit he had to deal with for the past few years with being the Dragon Reborn, Chosen One, Messiah, Emperor of half the world, blah blah blah. Now he can live a peaceful, anonymous life free of all his burdens. He's bonded to them and so they can always find him, literally anywhere in the world, especially since two of the three of them can use magic to teleport, so he they can see each other when ever they want but he gets to be out of sight not making huge political decisions and deciding the fate of the world any more.

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

But yes, either they make this a proper polyamorous relationship, or change it so either Elayne and Aviendha end up together, or end up single, all of which works for me better than how the books handled it.

Yeah 100% ship Elayne and Aviendha in the show, there's so much subtext between them in the books anyway it's barely a deviation from canon.

[Gertrude]

The harem was one thing in the books that I tolerated when I read it because surely I thought there had to be some payoff. It was so awkward and weird that there had to be a reason, right? Now that I know the payoff (none) and the reason (lol) if just unreasonably pisses me off. I don't think it would if I hadn't spent years making myself withhold judgment when my instinct told me all along that it was stupid.

[Which Tyler]

Nah, the harem always pissed me off.

To my eyes, he had a fling with Elayne, and then moved on (I'll allow some lingering affection).

He had a 1-night stand with Aviendha, and then moved on (I'll allow some lingering affection).

Then he started an actual, proper relationship with Min.

 

If the show runners want to make the 4 of them polyamorous - I'm fine with that change (though I definitely don't trust them to write it well).

If they want to make the flings more... experimental as teens are working out who they are - that's okay with me (though I'm not sure I trust them to write it well).

If they want Avi and Elayne to get close to each other through Rand, and then pair up without him - that's fine by me (my favoured, though I'd rather it happened without Rand getting involved).

The only romantic relationship Rand needs is Min IMO - even if the lack of free will personally bothers me - that's always going to be a problem in a world where prophesies are real and accurate (and I don't trust the writes to convey the Ick I got from that aspect)

[fionwe1987]

One thing that always bugs me is this "Rand needs Min so their relationship is the most worthy of preserving" thing. There's something vaguely co-dependent and wrong sounding about that. Min gives Rand emotional support through his PTSD, sure. But you don't need to be in a relationship for that, and that surely cannot be the value of the relationship, can it?

This ties to Min only being in the relationship fur to prophesy in the first place. It just makes Min too defined by her relationship to Rand, which is a fault in the books that this paradigm (of making theirs the only relationship that "counts") seeks to reinforce.

Also, I'm not quite sure a polyamorous relationship needs to justify it's existence any more than a monogamous one does. There doesn't have to be "payoff". It's just that this relationship is badly written, as are the vast majority of RJ's monogamous romances. That wouldn't have changed even if there was huge payoff from it for the plot. 

[Which Tyler]

Well, yeah, Rand needs Min, and it doesn't have to be romantic. But then, no fictional relationship NEEDS to be romantic. For me it's that Rand is given 4 romantic relationships. 2 of them don't read as real relationships. 1 is doomed from more or less the first chapter of the book, which leave us with one, which is the most important interpersonal relationship he has that doesn't revolve around fighting.

It's also just my opinion, I get to express it places like this, but I'm not out to convince anyone who disagrees.

 

I agree that polyamorous relationships don't need to justify their existence, or need a payoff beyond emotional & physical fulfillment for those involved - just like any other romantic relationship. They just need to be written well, which is rare enough that I can't actually think of one (maybe Sense8 was heading there before being cancelled, and had a massive cheat implanted from the start)

[SpaceChampion]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

One thing that always bugs me is this "Rand needs Min so their relationship is the most worthy of preserving" thing. There's something vaguely co-dependent and wrong sounding about that. Min gives Rand emotional support through his PTSD, sure. But you don't need to be in a relationship for that, and that surely cannot be the value of the relationship, can it?

Actual co-dependency is abusive and emotionally destructive, and one-sided.  So one-sidedness is a concern yes, but an abusive partner usual falls into the narcissism category.  Rand-Min is not that.

I've seen people in healthy relationship wonder if they're being co-dependent because someone along the way gaslight them into thinking depending on someone at all was wrong.  Healthy relationships are suppose to be mutually interdependent.