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Lothston, Whent, Blackwood and Stark bloodlines.


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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How come people come with ideas such as say Arthur and Rhaegar are related when GRRM himself has basically said no connection?

That's not what he said. The problem is that the readers often misinterpret what GRRM says.

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Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)
George_RR_Martin

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

There's several questions:

1) Is Ashara Dayne's violet eyes are result of her being a descendant from the marriage that has occured between a Dayne and the Martell, who was a descendant of Daenerys Targaryen?

No.

Because there never was a marriage between a Dayne and one of Daenerys' Martell-descendants.

2) Ashara's eyes are violet because amongst her ancestors were some other Valyrians, not Targaryens?

No.

Because the Targaryens and the other 39 Valyrian Dragonlord Houses were descendants of Azor Ahai and his first wife, while the Daynes are descendants of the son of Azor Ahai and his fourth wife - Nissa Nissa.

The Hightowers are descendants of Azor and his second wife. The Corbrays are descendants of Azor and his third wife. The Swanns are descendants of Azor and his fifth wife - the Tiger-woman, who was the widow of the Bloodstone Emperor.

And concerning GRRM saying that Ashara is not related to Aegon the Conqueror - Aenys I was supposedly not Aegon's son, so Ashara, who in my opinion, is a descendant of one of Rhaena Targaryen's and Garmund Hightower's six daughters, is not related to Aegon. Instead she is related only to one of Aegon's sisters - Rhaenys, who was Aenys' mother and Princess Rhaena's ancestor.

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Please tell me you are just having fun with me.

No.

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Where do you even get these baseless ideas?  It's not even fanfic because many of the thing you wrote have evidence against them.

What things and what evidences against them? If I'm wrong then, please, enlighten me. I mean it - write a list, what in my theories goes against canon.

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35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How come people come with ideas such as say Arthur and Rhaegar are related when GRRM himself has basically said no connection?

 

*shrugs. One of the Swan Song theories had something about Serenei of Lys being Larra Rogare, and Larra being a cat skinchanger. Ran, one of the mods who actually wrote The World of Ice and Fire explicitly stated that Larra and Serenei are not the same person, but Megorova still believes in her theory (the funniest bit is that her evidence is that the pictures apparently are the same person, due to hairlines).

I don't honestly care much anymore. She has her opinions, I have mine. Done deal. 

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3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

What things and what evidences against them? If I'm wrong then, please, enlighten me. I mean it - write a list, what in my theories goes against canon.

I've just gave one such example, wich you nitpicked the wording to try to work for you, but no:

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Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer.

Clearly, "You can have purple eyes without having Valyrian descent or being related to Aegon" Is the whole point of these two sentences. 

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Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Further supported by this. Many Valyrians have purple eyes, but not all those with purple eyes are valyrians, and not all Valyrians have purple eyes. That's the whole point of this SSM and if it's not the Daynes, who are "not all those with purple eyes are Valyrians"? Have we seen anyone else proven not to be related to Valyrians and yet having purple eyes? 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Have we seen anyone else proven not to be related to Valyrians and yet having purple eyes? 

No. There is no concrete evidence that the Daynes (Ashara had violet eyes) and the Hightowers (there was Lynesse Hightower, who looks similar to Dany, and Alicent Hightower whom Jahaerys I confused with his daughter Saera, maybe because they also looked alike) were not related to the Valyrians.

There was Princess Rhaena, who was a half-sister of Aegon III and Viserys II. She married with Garmund Hightower, and had with him six daughters. Several generations later Viserys' descendants married with Jenna Dondarrion, Alys Arryn and Dyanna Dayne, and two generations later Dyanna's son - Aegon V, was intending for two of his children to marry with Celia Tully and Luthor Tyrell.

So based on that I think that Princess Rhaena's daughters married - one to her Hightower cousin, and from her descendants continued House Hightower, in latest generation of which there's Lynesse - Jorah's wife, who looks a lot like Dany, so it's likely that she has eyes of "Valyrian" coloration like Dany's, because she is Rhaena's descendant; and the remaining five of Rhaena's daughters married with the men from Houses Dondarrion, Arryn, Dayne, Tully and Tyrell. That's why Princes Baelor, Maekar, and Rhaegel married with Jenna, Dyanna and Alys - because those women were their cousins; and why Egg wanted his children to marry with the members of House Tully and Tyrell - because they were his children's distant cousins - also descendant of Rhaena.

The number of generations for Jenna and the rest of them fits, for them to be Rhaena's granddaughters, etc.

If one of Rhaena's daughters married with a Dayne, and then she had children, amongst them Dyanna Dayne, and others, and one of those others continued House Dayne, then thru Dyanna, Ashara and Arthur were distantly bloodrelated to Rhaegar.

Garmund + Rhaena <- half-siblings -> Viserys + Larra

Dayne-husband + fourth daughter <- first cousins -> Aegon IV

Dyanna and her siblings <- second cousins -> Daeron II

Dyanna <- second cousins once removed -> Maekar I

Dyanna <- siblings -> Lord or Lady Dayne

Egg <- first cousins -> Dyanna's nephews and nieces

Jaehaerys and Shaera <- second cousins -> Dyanna's grand-nephews and grand-nieces

Aerys and Rhaella <- third cousins -> Arthur and Ashara

Rhaegar <- third cousins once removed -> Arthur and Ashara

 

Why Baelor, Maekar, Rhaegel, and Aerys I married with Jenna, Dyanna, Alys, and Aelinor Penrose? Why Rhaegar married with Elia? Why Rhaegar was friends with Arthur, and Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting? Why Lyanna and Robert were betrothed? Why Catelyn and Brandon were betrothed? Why Olenna Redwyne wanted to marry with Luthor Tyrell? Why Margaery Tyrell married with Renly Baratheon? Why the Stark-boys married with Lorra Royce, Alys Karstark, Melantha Blackwood, and Arya Flint? Why Aegon V married with Betha Blackwood and wanted for his children to marry with a Tyrell and a Tully? - The answer in all those cases is the same -> Because they were bloodrelated. And that's what GRRM does with the bloodlines in ASOIAF - whenever a Targaryen (a descendant of Azor Ahai and his first wife) or a Stark (a descendant of the Last Hero) married out of his/her House, GRRM mixed the blood of their descendants back into their original Houses.

So just because GRRM said that Ashara Dayne is not related to Aegon the Conqueror, it doesn't mean that Ashara wasn't related to Rhaegar. They were third cousins once removed thru Dyanna Dayne. And Ashara is 1/64 Targaryen by blood - Princess Rhaena's 3-times-great-granddaughter, while Rhaegar was a 5-times-great-grandson of Viserys II - Rhaena's half-brother. There was more generations on the Targaryen family tree, in the same span of time compared to the other family trees, because Viserys II, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II (note that they all were - II second) became fathers when they were very young.

Also, note that GRRM said - "Nor is she related to Aegon the Conqueror." <- present tense, not past tense - "related" not "WAS related". Which proves that Ashara is alive. And if she is alive, doesn't it make perfect sense that after the events at the Tower of Joy, she went with Howland? Ned wasn't the only Northerner who after the Rebellion brought a baby into his house. Howland Reed did the same, by bringing to the Neck his and Ashara's newborn daughter - Meera. And that's also how Ned found out where Lyanna was - after Rhaegar's departure from Starfall, and when it became known that he died at the Trident, Howland, who at that time was at Starfall with pregnant Ashara and Lyanna, went to Storm's End, hoping that people there will be able to tell him where he can find Ned, to bring him to Lyanna. Instead he found there Ned himself, and then together they sailed to Starfall. And then from there, after Lyanna's death, chased after the Kingsguards (two of which actually were Faceless Men), who kidnapped newborn Jon.

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Actually we don't know whether he's a skinchanger.

Yes, we know:

"The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world." A Storm of Swords, Chapter 9, Bran I.

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Basically, a greenseer is a super skinchanger.

I didn't read the rest and won't do it.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also, note that GRRM said - "Nor is she related to Aegon the Conqueror." <- present tense, not past tense - "related" not "WAS related". Which proves that Ashara is alive.

Again, reading things as it would serve your fanfic. 1) Ashara may or may not be alive, but there’s nothing in the story to suggest that She is Jyana. 2) It is not even Ashara who He talks about in that half quote, it’s Elizabeth Taylor.

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16 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Yes, we know:

"The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world." A Storm of Swords, Chapter 9, Bran I.

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Basically, a greenseer is a super skinchanger.

I didn't read the rest and won't do it.

Bloodraven (on his own) is not and never was a skinchanger -> Skinchangers/wargs are born, and greenseers BECOME.

 See here? -> how someone becomes skinchanger ->

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"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

The "gift" is the weirwood seed past, and it could be eaten by anyone, not just by the Children with red or green eyes (Bloodraven and Bran, and even dead giants in that cave, are the evidences of that). Basically what the ancient Children did, when amongst them was born a child with genetical deviation (because of which that child had not golden eyes), he/she was given a weirwood seed past, then the tree grew out from within of the host's body, and the host became a greenseer.

"Greenseeing" is not an ability with which people are born. If that wasn't so, then there would have been no need for Bran to eat the weirwood seed paste and to "wed to a tree", to become a greenseer.

Bloodraven ate weirwood seed paste, and became "wedded to a tree". From the paste in his stomach started to grow a tree. That tree planted roots into his internal organs and thru his bones. The roots grew out thru his body, thru his organs, ripped out thru his skin, and then grew into the walls and floor of the cave around him. Thru the connection of the tree, that was growing from his body, with the roots of the other weirwood trees around him (those that were growing from the bodies of all those Children that Bran saw in the cave), Bloodraven became part of the Weirwood-Network. Thru that connection he was able to see thru the "eyes" of all those weirwood trees that are part of the Network. In the Network are not only the trees, that grow in that cave from the bodies of the Children, but also all the other weirwood trees. Because all those weirwood trees are apparently infected with a parasite, some sort of hive-mind, that the Children percieve as the Old Gods. Though actually it's some sort of alien parasite, maybe Greeshka from GRRM's sci-fi novel "A Song for Lya".

A "greenseer" is a person that ate weirwood seed paste, and whose body from then on became connected to the Weirwood-Network. In that network the host - the greenseer, is serving a role of the Wi-Fi-router to which thru wireless connection are connected multiple "devices" - weirwood trees, ravens, animals.

So Bloodraven is not a skinchanger. When he was born, he had no skinchanging abilities. None. Years after he joined Night's Watch, he went beyond The Wall, then probably Shiera Seastar lured him into that cave, and fed him weirwood seed paste, after which he became a greenseer (it's a parallel to what the Lady of the Lake (the one who gave Excalibur sword to King Arthur) did to wizard Merlin). From then on Bloodraven was able to see thru the trees that were part of the Weirwood-Network. Maybe now he is able to skinchange into ravens, though before he wedded to a tree, he was not a skinchanger.

There was zero indications that Bloodraven could have been a skinchanger BEFORE. It wasn't mentioned anywhere in the three of Dunk&Egg novels, not in TWOIAF, and not in ASOIAF's books, whenever the "past" Bloodraven (before his "wedding" to a tree) was mentioned there. Also there are zero indications that the Blackwoods, any of them, ever were skinchangers. Alysanne Blackwood, Betha Blackwood and her five half-Targaryen children, no mentioning about Melantha Blackwood's two half-Stark children being skinchangers. None of these Blackwoods are/were skinchangers:

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House Blackwood at the end of the third century

The known Blackwoods during the timespan of the events described on A Song of Ice and Fire are:

With unspecified familiar relationship to the main branch of the house there is also:

More than 10 people, and not even a single skinchanger amongst them. Also, there was no skinchangers even amongst the historical Blackwoods, none. The Blackwoods have nothing to do with the skinchanging abilities. Just because they build their castle near the tree, that thousand years ago used to be the "Wi-Fi-router" of the Weirwood-Network (before the Children relocated to the area that later became Winterfell, and later relocated even further north - to the area beyong The Wall), doesn't mean that they were somehow connected to that tree. The Blackwoods originally were living in The North, and they relocated to the Riverlands and build there a Raventree Hall, after the First Long Night.

At the time of the Long Night, the "heart" (or brain?) of the Weirwood-Network was in The North. The Last Hero went there and made a Pact with the Children. He build Winterfell around that tree, to the roots of which were connected their greenseers. And then the Children that were not connected, went further north, into the Lands of Always Winter, created there a new cave and a new heart of the Weirwood-Network. And those that they were using before - the one at Riverlands and the one at Winterfell, died. After the Long Night ended, the Starks became Kings of Winter. They fought with the Blackwoods, and the Blackwoods had to depart from The North, relocated to the Riverlands, and build their castle near that giant weirwood tree. Though by that time the tree at the Riverlands, and the Children/greenseers that were in the underground cave under that tree, connected to its roots, were already all dead. Eventually the Starks also stopped feeding their tree with blood, and the Children/greenseers that were connected to the roots of that tree, also all died. The cave in which all their bodies are, is on the deepest level of Winterfell's crypts. That's why there was always supposed to be a Stark present at Winterfell. That was necessary while the heart of the Weirwood-Network at Winterfell was still alive.

So the Blackwoods are not skinchangers, and Bloodraven didn't got any skinchanging genes from his mother. Maybe he did got some from his father, because his paternal grandmother and great-grandmother both were skinchangers (Johanna Swann and Larra Rogare). Though aside from Larra/Serenei, who was a cat-skinchanger, and whose mother - Johanna Swann, also was a cat-skinchanger, there is no other cases in which a child was born with skinchanging abilities, when he/she had only one parent who was a carrier of the skinchanging genes. Aegon IV - Bloodraven's father, obviously was a carrier, because he passed those genes to Jeyne Lothston, the Bastard of Harrenhal (Manfred Lothston), Mya Rivers and maybe both of her siblings including Bloodraven, Daenerys Targaryen, the three Otheryses, Viserys Plumm, Daemon Blackfyre, and Shiera Seastar. And out of all of his children only Shiera and Manfred are/were skinchangers. That's because Shiera's mother  - Serenei/Larra, and Manfred's mother - Jeyne Lothston, also were carriers. So in case with those two people, in Manfred's case both of his parents were recessive carriers, and in case with Shiera - her father was a recessive carrier, and her mother was a skinchanger. And in case with Serenei/Larra herself - her mother was a skinchanger, and her father wasn't, also he wasn't even a recessive carrier. The Stark children, Jon and Shiera Seastar are skinchangers because they are descendants of Johanna Swann, and thru her are descendants of the Tiwer-woman (fifth wife of Azor Ahai, whose son founded House Swann). There are numerous elements in the books, based on which I build this theory. And there's zero indications in the books that being a Blackwood has anything to do with skinchanging/warging. And there's no indications that Bloodraven was ever able to skinchange, BEFORE he got "wedded to a tree". The skinchangers are BORN, and Bloodraven GAINED this ability already AFTER he BECAME a greenseer. And this thread is about bloodlines, about characters who were BORN with an abilitiy, not about magical procedures in result of which characters GAINED magical abilities. Those procedures could be performed on anyone, no matter what is the House of their origin and whatever is their bloodline.

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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:
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Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer.

Clearly, "You can have purple eyes without having Valyrian descent or being related to Aegon" Is the whole point of these two sentences. 

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

2) It is not even Ashara who He talks about in that half quote, it’s Elizabeth Taylor.

So he was saying this about Elizabeth Taylor, that she is not related to Aegon the Conqueror. Ok.

22 hours ago, Megorova said:
20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How come people come with ideas such as say Arthur and Rhaegar are related when GRRM himself has basically said no connection?

So GRRM didn't said that Ashara Dayne had no connection to Aegon the Conqueror, and he didn't said that Ashara wasn't related to Rhaegar.

The full quote of what was asked and what GRRM answered is in my post, first on page 3.

GRRM didn't said that the Daynes are not related to the Valyrians or the Targaryens. He just said that violet eyes are not necessary indication of a person being of Valyrian descent or related to Aegon the Conquerer.

So if later it will be revealed that Ashara and Arthur were descendants of Princess Rhaena Targaryen, it won't contradict what he said earlier. Because he didn't said that they are NOT related.

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7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

GRRM didn't said that the Daynes are not related to the Valyrians or the Targaryens. He just said that violet eyes are not necessary indication of a person being of Valyrian descent or related to Aegon the Conquerer.

So if later it will be revealed that Ashara and Arthur were descendants of Princess Rhaena Targaryen, it won't contradict what he said earlier. Because he didn't said that they are NOT related.

If so, then why did GRRM even had the need to mention this? Let's say Daynes are Valyrian, then who are these violet eyed non-Valyrians, do you know of any that you'd care to mention? All the violet eyed characters in Westeros we see have Valyrian background: they either belong to a family with Valyrian origin, or have a Valyrian parent.

 

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28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Let's say Daynes are Valyrian, then who are these violet eyed non-Valyrians, do you know of any that you'd care to mention?

My theory is that Azor Ahai was a son of the Amethyst Empress, and that the founders of the 40 Valyrian Dragonlord Families, and the founders of House Hightower, Corbray, Dayne and Swann - all 44 of them were sons of Azor Ahai and grandsons of the Amethyst Empress. So the people in those 44 Houses have colorations not like the First Men, Andals, or Rhoynars, or Ghiscary, or whatever, they have coloration that they inherited from their ancient ancestor - the God-on-Earth.

Or maybe the 40 Valyrians had purple, violet, lilac, indigo, amethyst-colored eyes - shades of "blue" - because it was their mother who had this coloration.

Maybe Azor's first wife had "Valyrian"-colored eyes. Maybe she also was a descendant of the God-on-Earth, same as her husband. Maybe she was even his sister. Though what about the other four wives? They also could have had "exotic" coloration, also at least wife 2, 3 and 4 (Nissa) also could have been Azor's relatives, some sort of cousins, and only his fifth wife - the Tiger-woman, originally was not from Yi-Tish Empire but from somewhere else. Her descendants are the Swanns, and in the span of 5 books of ASOIAF-series, and in TWOIAF, and in two out of three Dunk&Egg novels, F&B V1 in which the Swanns appeared -> 9 books, we still don't know what is the coloration typical for the members of their House. Maybe that's because they also have some sort of "exotic" coloration.

So the Daynes, and the Hightowers, and the Corbrays, and the Swanns could have "violet" eyes, despite them not being a descendants of the Valyrians, because the Valyrians are their "half-siblings", not their "ancestors".

Edited by Megorova
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12 hours ago, Megorova said:

My theory is that Azor Ahai was a son of the Amethyst Empress, and that the founders of the 40 Valyrian Dragonlord Families, and the founders of House Hightower, Corbray, Dayne and Swann - all 44 of them were sons of Azor Ahai and grandsons of the Amethyst Empress. So the people in those 44 Houses have colorations not like the First Men, Andals, or Rhoynars, or Ghiscary, or whatever, they have coloration that they inherited from their ancient ancestor - the God-on-Earth.

Or maybe the 40 Valyrians had purple, violet, lilac, indigo, amethyst-colored eyes - shades of "blue" - because it was their mother who had this coloration.

Maybe Azor's first wife had "Valyrian"-colored eyes. Maybe she also was a descendant of the God-on-Earth, same as her husband. Maybe she was even his sister. Though what about the other four wives? They also could have had "exotic" coloration, also at least wife 2, 3 and 4 (Nissa) also could have been Azor's relatives, some sort of cousins, and only his fifth wife - the Tiger-woman, originally was not from Yi-Tish Empire but from somewhere else. Her descendants are the Swanns, and in the span of 5 books of ASOIAF-series, and in TWOIAF, and in two out of three Dunk&Egg novels, F&B V1 in which the Swanns appeared -> 9 books, we still don't know what is the coloration typical for the members of their House. Maybe that's because they also have some sort of "exotic" coloration.

So the Daynes, and the Hightowers, and the Corbrays, and the Swanns could have "violet" eyes, despite them not being a descendants of the Valyrians, because the Valyrians are their "half-siblings", not their "ancestors".

So you agree Daynes have no relations to Targaryens.

 

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"Our cousin Bronze Yohn had himself a mêlée at Runestone," Myranda Royce went on, oblivious, "a small one, just for squires. It was meant for Harry the Heir to win the honors, and so he did."

He has run back to Riverrun with his plunder, abandoning the castles he took in the west," announced Lord Tywin. "Our cousin Ser Daven is reforming the remnants of his late father's army at Lannisport. When they are ready he shall join Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth. As soon as the Stark boy starts north, Ser Forley and Ser Daven will descend on Riverrun."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

All three instances are “cousins” that are not an uncle’s or aunt’s son. The first two are at least from the same house, whereas the third is not even from the same house. Guess who is never mentioned to be a cousin of Rhaegar’s? Arthur Dayne.

More cousins

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As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"

"He was a great knight," Ser Arys Oakheart put in.

 

He was a great knight and “cousin” to Darkstar but no relation what so ever is mentioned to Targaryens.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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On 12/29/2021 at 7:23 AM, Forward-Speaker-5979 said:

Throughout the novels, in many instances we have hints, about warging and greenseer ability, probably, passing down maternally. Even though, the Stark kids have Blackwood blood because of Alys, still, their active powers could not pass down by Ned alone, since he is a man. But we have clues, about Cat's bloodline being magical too.

First about the Starks: Some members are known for melancholy and iciness, while others have a wildness sometimes called "wolf blood". So, there are ,possibly, two magical bloodlines in theirs, one with "ice powers" and one with "green powers". Ice magic is probably from the father's side, since it's connected with the Nigh'ts King and it looks like is passing down paternally. The second one is the green magic and got in the bloodline, because of Warg King's daughters and the daughter of Marsh King.

Starks has green blood from these, there are other marriges after that too, with Blackwoods and other northern Houses. So, there is the green gene because of the Starks too, but it's not the sole reason why the kids have active powers, since it was passed down by Ned.

And that brings us to Cat's blood. Catelyn is Whent from her mothers side, even though we don't know a lot about them, we have the quote about the "wolf with bat's wings",that gives as the idea about them having mogical blood.

The Whents were originally knights in the service of the Lothstons. When Lady Danelle Lothston went mad during the reign of King Maekar I Targaryen, the Whents received Harrenhal for their role in defeating the Lothstons. They blazon their arms depict nine black bats displayed over a yellow gold field. So probably they had blood relation with Lothstons, since their arms were a black bat on a field divided bendwise, silver and gold. In Westeros arms belong to a family, and any trueborn child may use the family arms, though many (most often not firstborn sons) choose to adopt their own personal arms, usually a minor variation on the arms of their house. Bastards do not have the right to use the arms of their families. Thus, a typical Westeros custom is that a bastard using a sigil (when knighted, for example) adds a distinction. So, Whents are most likely blood related to Lothsons.

House Lothston held Harrenhal until three or four generations before ASOIAF and were a powerful house which once loomed large in the histories of the Seven Kingdoms. We see that Lothstons had conection with magic and the most prominent member with a strong connection to magic, supported Bloodraven.

All of this weird blood magic, cannibalism and bat-warging reminds me a lot of the blood sacrifises to the Trees and the alleged things still practiced in Skagos. Both of them greatly connected to the old gods and green magic.

So, we have powers from Cat's line too, plus Tullys most definitely at some point had Blackwood blood in their line too, since both of them are major Riverlands' Houses.

And last but not least, we have the Blackwoods.

Thus, the name was not wolfswood before the Starks took over and most of it was ruled by the Blackwoods. But if not wolfswood, then what? Greenwood would be a good name for the forest ,it's a huge green wood, but also because there are weirwoods through out the forest and cotf, wargs and greenseers were living in the forest too. The majority of the wood it's green with oaks, evergreen, black brier and Ironwood (which has black wood btw). The Greenwoods was a northern house too, which we don't know much about, except that the Kings of winter vanquished. The name suggest, probably, two things either they were rulers in a really green woody area or had green men powers, so wargs greenseers and close to the old gods and cotf, so I would place them probably somewhere in the woolfswood too.

Parts of the wolfswood were reduced to ashes by Harrag Hoare, King of the Iron Islands, so the wood was bigger in the past with Sea Dragon's point being a part of it.

To me looks like Ygg was a weirwood at Sea Dragon's point and the place was woody and most definitely cotf and wargs were living there. Then, it makes sense for the Warg King to be there, we don't know how big the part that ruled was, but since he was warg and close to the children of the forest, I'm guessing he was going deep into the woods and control a big part of it . From all of these, my hypothesis is Blackwood=Greenwood=Warg King. We see that "The Starks killed his sons, beasts, and greenseers, but took his daughters as prizes" but killing every descendant it's not very easy, concidering that the members had powers too, most likely some of them fled from North.

We know that Blackwoods have green magic in their bloodline, but the colours associated with them are black and red and not green. The colour green through out the story is associated with tcotf, wargs, green men and nature, on the other side black is the colour of death and dark, along with red which is closely related to blood and fire. They went from a fully green place with magic around them, to a house that has Black in the name and has a dead weirwood as a sigil and as a heart tree.

Part 2 ---> Blackwood Heart tree.

Lothstons, Whents, and Blackwoods yes. Starks, no.

Blackwoods are likely the Warg King from Sea Dragon point near the Wolfs Wood. They are likely linked with the "Sea Faction" that the Riverlands were originally associated with by way of the Fisher Kings of House Fisher and House Mudd from Old Stones.

The Staks invaded the North and booted the Blackwoods out, suggesting they are not friends. The Starks of of the line of Garth the Green whose descendants booted out House Manderly who the Mander is named for and whose sigil is the Merling King. Suggesting the Green hand and the Merling faction are not friends. House Hightower is linked to this Sea Faction as they likely descend from Pirates before the First Men, and Uthor stole Maris the Maid from Garth the Green who likely didn't like it, as the two houses are not joined till Lymond and Garland II.

The Stark marriage to a Blackwood was likely bad for House Stark and Likely the Blackwoods trying to take the North back. I suspect this is where the She Wolves of Winterfell come in. 

Current Blackwoods are aligned with House Frey and the Lannisters, along with the Boltons. Everyone set on bringing down House Stark.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Current Blackwoods are aligned with House Frey and the Lannisters, along with the Boltons. Everyone set on bringing down House Stark.

Lol? Is that why they were the last to dip their banners despite being given royal pardons? Tytos Blackwood lost a son to diarrhea just a few days before Jaime arrived, if he had surrendered, this may not have been the case.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lol? Is that why they were the last to dip their banners despite being given royal pardons? Tytos Blackwood lost a son to diarrhea just a few days before Jaime arrived, if he had surrendered, this may not have been the case.

I think you're confusing yielding to Lannister demands with yielding to Bracken demands. Lannisters merely arbitrated their feud. Something the Blackwoods are passionate about since their tree was poisoned.

Blackwoods also have a marriage to House Frey, with everyone in that line having something to do with the Red Wedding. 

The Blackwoods killed at the Red Wedding were by Frey's not of Blackwood descent. We're told that the Frey's are not all on the same side, as some are competing for the Main seat at the Twins. So only direct blood can be trusted in the Frey's and even then, not always. So the Blackwoods are connected to Frey's, but some Frey's want to ruin that alliance apparently.

These same Frey's are also likely the squires that were picking on Howland Reed, who was directed to them via the Weirwoods and Green Men, which trace back to Bloodraven, a Blackwood. Who possibly them down the road of Lyanna, Brandon, and Rickard being murdered and House Stark being greatly reduced. 

Then, one who is crippled by a Lannister, is led to a cave in the middle of nowhere, in the land of the Others. And meets Bloodraven on Brans 13th chapter of Adwd (not counting the prologue. With 13 being connected to the Night's King. (Jon also dies on his 13th Pov chapter of ADWD). Bloodraven who served for 13 years. 

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Brynden was elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch in 239 AC.[4][11] However, in 252 AC, he disappeared while ranging beyond the Wall.[4]

Bloodraven is also confused when Bran asks him if he is the 3 eyed crow, to which Bloodraven seems confused. As Bran has Wolf dreams he likes, 3 eye crow dreams he trust, and Tree dreams that he fears. When Melisandre see's Bran she see's a Tree and a Wolf. 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

 

Bloodraven is clearly the Tree, not the 3 eyed crow. 

Wolf Dreams (Bran), Tree Dreams (Bloodraven) and 3 eyed crow dreams.

 

 

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8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lothstons, Whents, and Blackwoods yes. Starks, no.

Blackwoods are likely the Warg King from Sea Dragon point near the Wolfs Wood. They are likely linked with the "Sea Faction" that the Riverlands were originally associated with by way of the Fisher Kings of House Fisher and House Mudd from Old Stones.

I think the Blackwoods are from the Sea dragons point as I said yes, but they are not connected with the sea faction, bc if they were why choose a place after they left, in the middle of the riverlands? I think the reason, the point is called sea dragon's, it's bc of the ironborn. Ygg was a weirwood and probably at sea dragon's point. We know, ygg and nagga are often talked about together, so many of us suspect that naggas bones are just a weirwood boat. The first boat for sure didn't came from iron islands, they should have boats to go there in the first place and we have the story,that Grey KIng curved the first boat from ygg. We know that at sea dragon's point we had wargs and cotf so probably weirwoods too. And the fact it is called sea dragon's point, it's another hint imo.

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The Staks invaded the North and booted the Blackwoods out, suggesting they are not friends. House Hightower is linked to this Sea Faction as they likely descend from Pirates before the First Men, and Uthor stole Maris the Maid from Garth the Green who likely didn't like it, as the two houses are not joined till Lymond and Garland II.

The Starks were not close with any of the northern houses, when they enstablished themselves. But we also know that all the first men (who fought al the time between them), worked together when the Andals came. I don't think there is a feud at this point of the story, contrariwise they seem closer with them ,than many southern houses,bc they are old god followers.

House Hightower to me are connected with Dawn more than anything and not sea, not gonna lie. Uthor didn't stole Maris, Maris(daughter of Garth Greenhand),  chose Uthor instead of Argoth Stone-Skin, who won the turney and Argoth was outside the walls wantng his "wife". So, i don't know where you got this story. If someone is connected to the sea, probably is Argoth, stone is all the time linked to water (bless him with stone) and the Stone skin to me sounds like grey scale more than anything. I would put him in the iron islands tbh, but we don't know for sure. 

Quote

The Stark marriage to a Blackwood was likely bad for House Stark and Likely the Blackwoods trying to take the North back. I suspect this is where the She Wolves of Winterfell come in. 

They had way to many marrieges and they were a great political move, alonge with religious move. Blackwoods are still followers of the old gods and I don't think they were that happy to marry kids to houses deep into the 7, bc we know the faith is really serious about their gods. Now about the She Wolves of Winterfell, we know that they had a problem, mostly because of wars and there were many daughters at the time too. The Lady at the time was a Royce and the others were, probably, 4 widows of previous Lords of Winterfell. Meaning 2 Starks, 1 Norrey and only Alys Blackwood (if she was alive). Others at the same time were from northern Houses again, like Karstark and Manderly and I think a Locke or smth like that. So i dont think it was all a plot of the Blackwoods, yes, Alys had many daughters, but at this point she was not even lady of Winterfell. In fact she probably was dead, bc Cregan had another wife (a Stark one). And winterfell was already passed down to Beron. 

Now in the time of our story, with the surrender of Riverrun, Raventree remains the last Stark loyalist stronghold. Jaime Lannister successfully negotiates the surrender of Raventree with Tytos and takes Hoster Blackwood as a hostage. Jonos Bracken desires to gain the east bank of the Widow's Wash, from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow, Grindcorn Mill, Lord's Mill, Muddy Hall, the Ravishment, Battle Valley, Oldforge, Buckle, Blackbuckle, Cairns, Claypool, Mudgrave, Waspwood, Lorgen's Wood, Greenhill, Missy's Teats, and Honeytree. However, Tytos only agrees to transfer Woodhedge, Crossbow Ridge, Buckle, Lord's Mill, and Honeytree. Soooo, no I don't think it's a problem at least at this point of the story. 

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The Starks of of the line of Garth the Green whose descendants booted out House Manderly who the Mander is named for and whose sigil is the Merling King.

And another ?, on where did you get that. Starks gave Manderlys a place after they exiled them from the Reach. And it makes all the sense. Tales from the Reach claim that Brandon the Builder was a descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, a son of the mythical Garth Greenhand. According to legend, Brandon built the Wall and Winterfell; some stories say he did this with the help of giants. According to a ballad in Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell, Brandon also sought assistance from the children of the forest, and learned to understand the True Tongue in order to do so. If this is true, I don't think he had the best relationship with his father, who was a legendary son of Garth Greenhand and drove giants away from the Reach and warred against children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake it became known as Red Lake. I don't think the Gardeners and the Starks had a good relationship, so it's normal, to not have a problem with Manderlys.

Edited by Forward-Speaker-5979
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On 12/31/2021 at 2:43 PM, direpupy said:

I understand what your saying, i just don't think that the person who created the original inheritable ability (probably true bloodmagic) would have chosen to have it follow the pattern of a genetic defect. Heteroplasmy would be a much beter example. Because while it can have adverse effects it can also have beneficial effects, with people who live to be over a 100 years old showing a higher than average degree  of Heteroplasmy.

Short explanation, mtDNA normally only inherited via the mother also inherited via the father leading to the presence of more then one type of organellar genome.

I don't think they created like that, but it happened. Obviously the father plays a role too, but a smaller one that is what I am saying. We have many cases that interbreeding is hinted, with most of them being with magical woman.So obviously a big part of the magical part is comming from the mother and it continues to passed down by the mother. The bloodmage didn't plan it (if it was like that and not interbreeding first and blood magic later),but grrm follows basic genetics even a little bit, so the stuff he writes, to make sense (in every work of his). He didn't want 4 legged dragons, bc it doesn't make sense evolution wise, so a litle bit it is thought aout i believe. 

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1 hour ago, Forward-Speaker-5979 said:

I don't think they created like that, but it happened. Obviously the father plays a role too, but a smaller one that is what I am saying. We have many cases that interbreeding is hinted, with most of them being with magical woman.So obviously a big part of the magical part is comming from the mother and it continues to passed down by the mother. The bloodmage didn't plan it (if it was like that and not interbreeding first and blood magic later),but grrm follows basic genetics even a little bit, so the stuff he writes, to make sense (in every work of his). He didn't want 4 legged dragons, bc it doesn't make sense evolution wise, so a litle bit it is thought aout i believe. 

I understand you basic premise, but the one problem that remains is that even if the magic enters a family via a woman that does not mean it can only be passed by a woman. There are more ways then one to pass something it need not be linked to a gender.

Honestly the most realistic way to explain why magic is rare and only seems to occur ones every so many generations is that it comes from Chromosomal crossover more comanly known as meiosis, so if GRRM followed basic genetics then magic would not be Pater or Materlineal.

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11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So you agree Daynes have no relations to Targaryens.

More yes, than no - in my opinion they do have a common ancestor, in the ancient ancient past - Azor, though no recent connections.

Though in the last 300 years there maybe were two marriages between them - the one possibly between a daughter of Princess Rhaena, and the one between Rhaena's possible granddaughter - Dyanna Dayne, and Prince Maekar Targaryen.

So only the Daynes starting from one generation prior to Dyanna's, were carriers of the Targaryen blood - Rhaena's blood. And none of the Targaryen blood was added into their gene-pool from Dyanna's marriage to Maekar. Unless one of their daughters, probably Daella, did married with a Dayne.

And the Daynes from that other castle - High Hermitage, don't have any Targaryen blood at all.

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

All three instances are “cousins” that are not an uncle’s or aunt’s son. The first two are at least from the same house, whereas the third is not even from the same house. Guess who is never mentioned to be a cousin of Rhaegar’s? Arthur Dayne.

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He was a great knight and “cousin” to Darkstar but no relation what so ever is mentioned to Targaryens.

Walder Frey didn't tried to appeal to Catelyn with his past-marriage with Sarya Whent, who was some sort of relative of Cat's mother - Minisa Whent, some sort of distant cousin, probably. Apparently two people who are bloodrelated, are considered as cousins only to sertain point, like a second cousin or so, and those who are more distantly bloodrelated, are considered to be not related enough to be deemed as cousins.

Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins, and if Arthur and Ashara really were Princess Rhaena's descendants, then thru that line they were Rhaegar's either seventh cousins or fifth cousins twice removed <- very very distant relation, not enough for them to be adressed as each others cousins. Then Dyanna Dayne married with Prince Maekar, and she was Rhaegar's great-great-grandmother, so on this line Rhaegar and the Daynes were fourth cousins -> also probably too watered-down bloodrelation for them to be adressed as cousins.

The Royces were Ned Stark's second cousins - his great-aunt Jocelyn was married with a Royce. The Blackwoods were not referred to as Ned's or Robb's cousins, despite there being a Blackwood amongst Ned's "recent" ancestors - his great-grandmother Melantha Blackwood. The Blackwoods that are from Ned's generation should be his third cousins. But none of them was ever referred to as his cousins.

So based on all those cases - two people are called cousins, only if they are first cousins or second cousins, and in cases if they are bloodrelated more distantly, they are not referred to as cousins. So Rhaegar and Arthur, who by blood possibly were something like fourth cousins, by the 7K's standarts were not considered to be cousins. They were not called cousins, which doesn't eliminate the possibility that they did shared a drop of common blood.

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19 hours ago, Forward-Speaker-5979 said:

I think the Blackwoods are from the Sea dragons point as I said yes, but they are not connected with the sea faction, bc if they were why choose a place after they left, in the middle of the riverlands? I think the reason, the point is called sea dragon's, it's bc of the ironborn. Ygg was a weirwood and probably at sea dragon's point. We know, ygg and nagga are often talked about together, so many of us suspect that naggas bones are just a weirwood boat. The first boat for sure didn't came from iron islands, they should have boats to go there in the first place and we have the story,that Grey KIng curved the first boat from ygg. We know that at sea dragon's point we had wargs and cotf so probably weirwoods too. And the fact it is called sea dragon's point, it's another hint imo.

The Starks were not close with any of the northern houses, when they enstablished themselves. But we also know that all the first men (who fought al the time between them), worked together when the Andals came. I don't think there is a feud at this point of the story, contrariwise they seem closer with them ,than many southern houses,bc they are old god followers.

House Hightower to me are connected with Dawn more than anything and not sea, not gonna lie. Uthor didn't stole Maris, Maris(daughter of Garth Greenhand),  chose Uthor instead of Argoth Stone-Skin, who won the turney and Argoth was outside the walls wantng his "wife". So, i don't know where you got this story. If someone is connected to the sea, probably is Argoth, stone is all the time linked to water (bless him with stone) and the Stone skin to me sounds like grey scale more than anything. I would put him in the iron islands tbh, but we don't know for sure. 

They had way to many marrieges and they were a great political move, alonge with religious move. Blackwoods are still followers of the old gods and I don't think they were that happy to marry kids to houses deep into the 7, bc we know the faith is really serious about their gods. Now about the She Wolves of Winterfell, we know that they had a problem, mostly because of wars and there were many daughters at the time too. The Lady at the time was a Royce and the others were, probably, 4 widows of previous Lords of Winterfell. Meaning 2 Starks, 1 Norrey and only Alys Blackwood (if she was alive). Others at the same time were from northern Houses again, like Karstark and Manderly and I think a Locke or smth like that. So i dont think it was all a plot of the Blackwoods, yes, Alys had many daughters, but at this point she was not even lady of Winterfell. In fact she probably was dead, bc Cregan had another wife (a Stark one). And winterfell was already passed down to Beron. 

Now in the time of our story, with the surrender of Riverrun, Raventree remains the last Stark loyalist stronghold. Jaime Lannister successfully negotiates the surrender of Raventree with Tytos and takes Hoster Blackwood as a hostage. Jonos Bracken desires to gain the east bank of the Widow's Wash, from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow, Grindcorn Mill, Lord's Mill, Muddy Hall, the Ravishment, Battle Valley, Oldforge, Buckle, Blackbuckle, Cairns, Claypool, Mudgrave, Waspwood, Lorgen's Wood, Greenhill, Missy's Teats, and Honeytree. However, Tytos only agrees to transfer Woodhedge, Crossbow Ridge, Buckle, Lord's Mill, and Honeytree. Soooo, no I don't think it's a problem at least at this point of the story. 

And another ?, on where did you get that. Starks gave Manderlys a place after they exiled them from the Reach. And it makes all the sense. Tales from the Reach claim that Brandon the Builder was a descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, a son of the mythical Garth Greenhand. According to legend, Brandon built the Wall and Winterfell; some stories say he did this with the help of giants. According to a ballad in Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell, Brandon also sought assistance from the children of the forest, and learned to understand the True Tongue in order to do so. If this is true, I don't think he had the best relationship with his father, who was a legendary son of Garth Greenhand and drove giants away from the Reach and warred against children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake it became known as Red Lake. I don't think the Gardeners and the Starks had a good relationship, so it's normal, to not have a problem with Manderlys.

No one is debating whether House Stark took in House Manderly or not. Im simply saying that Brandon of the Bloody Blade is listed as descendant of Garth the Green and possible ancestor for Bran the Builder and House Stark. Tying them to Garth the Green, who was a King of the First Men (Not counting the Grey King who is what im referring to as the Sea Faction). House Manderly is one of the only first men houses of the Reach not said to descend from Garth the Green. The Mander river is said to be named for House Manderly. Since House Manderly have a Merlingking on their sigil and their castle at White Harbor, which was built to look like their old one in the Reach, has sea creatures statues all over it. Meaning House Manderly is on the Sea Faction side, and Garth the Green is on the Land Faction side of the First Men. As the First Men we are told were not sailors. This is why House Hightower hints to another group predating the First Men. As the Hightowers were said to come from a sea faring people and were their when the First men arrived. So House Hightower, the Manderly's, and the Iron Born of the First Men, are all likely of the Sea Faction Side. While House Stark, is not, so far as I can tell. As they are linked to Garth the Green.

and yes, Tytos, knowing the Brackens have already flipped. Knows that the Brackens are trying to use Royal leverage to gain back lost lands. The Blackwoods know they are going to flip too, holding out has nothinggggg to do with support for the Starks or Robb and everything to do with making sure that when they return to the Royal fold, that they are not forced to hand over land to their enemies. 

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