Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

So poached eggs? To encroach upon especially for the purpose of taking something,

I missed the poaching angle. Lya the Dragonpoacher is now part of my headcanon considering these links to Elissa Farman

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“I do not have these eggs, of course,” the Sealord said. “You cannot prove elsewise. If I did have them, however … well, until they hatch, they are but stones. Would your king begrudge me three pretty stones? Now, if I had three … chickens … I might understand his concern. I do admire your Jaehaerys, though. He is a great improvement on his uncle, and Braavos does not wish to see him so unhappy. So instead of stones, let me offer … gold.”<...>

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“The Sealord had best hope that they remain stones,” Jaehaerys said. “If I should hear so much as a whisper of … chickens … his palace will be the first to burn.”

 

[alienarea]

18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I missed the poaching angle. Lya the Dragonpoacher is now part of my headcanon considering these links to Elissa Farman

 

The classic chicken - (dragon) egg paradox.

[LynnS]

Gosh - I'm on another tangent here after revisiting this dream of Bran's:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Summer followed them up the tower steps as Hodor carried Bran back to his bed. Old Nan was asleep in her chair. Hodor said "Hodor," gathered up his great-grandmother, and carried her off, snoring softly, while Bran lay thinking. Robb had promised that he could feast with the Night's Watch in the Great Hall. "Summer," he called. The wolf bounded up on the bed. Bran hugged him so hard he could feel the hot breath on his cheek. "I can ride now," he whispered to his friend. "We can go hunting in the woods soon, wait and see." After a time he slept.

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

 

This seems to be distorted dream of his encounter with Jamie and Cersei and yet it's so different in features and tone.  The windowless blackened stone tower rising above the clouds and the twisted gargoyles whispering in stone voices; things he is not supposed to know or hear.  But it seams he did hear although he denies it.  And he weeps.

This from the coma dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

 

Notice how in the first dream cannot fly is repeated twice and in the coma dream falling is repeated twice.  I think these two dreams are connected.  We've talked about what Bran sees in the heart of winter that makes him weep and the terrible knowledge he is exposed to in the 3rd eye of the crow.

The  heart of darkness

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden. Here they are free to practice their spells without restraint or censure, conduct their obscene rites, and fornicate with demons if that is their desire.

Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men. They alone dare to go upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness.

On its way from the Mountains of the Morn to the sea, the Ash runs howling through a narrow cleft in the mountains, between towering cliffs so steep and close that the river is perpetually in shadow, save for a few moments at midday when the sun is at its zenith. In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become...until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow's heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. Or so the stories say.

 

I think in the dream, Bran has inadvertently exposed himself to someone far more dangerous to him that Jaime and Cersei and worse; they have seen him.  Bloodraven's cave seems to give him some protection from these watchers/stalkers since he tells Jon they can't see him anymore.

I wonder if the twisted grotesques with eyes like burning coals are Moqorro and Benerro looking for visions in their fires.  We do know that Bran and BR could see Mel and she could see them in her fires.  

 

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Gosh - I'm on another tangent here after revisiting this dream of Bran's:

This seems to be distorted dream of his encounter with Jamie and Cersei and yet it's so different in features and tone.  The windowless blackened stone tower rising above the clouds and the twisted gargoyles whispering in stone voices; things he is not supposed to know or hear.  But it seams he did hear although he denies it.  And he weeps.

This from the coma dream:

Notice how in the first dream cannot fly is repeated twice and in the coma dream falling is repeated twice.  I think these two dreams are connected.  We've talked about what Bran sees in the heart of winter that makes him weep and the terrible knowledge he is exposed to in the 3rd eye of the crow.

The  heart of darkness

I think in the dream, Bran has inadvertently exposed himself to someone far more dangerous to him that Jaime and Cersei and worse; they have seen him.  Bloodraven's cave seems to give him some protection from these watchers/stalkers since he tells Jon they can't see him anymore.

I wonder if the twisted grotesques with eyes like burning coals are Moqorro and Benerro looking for visions in their fires.  We do know that Bran and BR could see Mel and she could see them in her fires.  

 

The Bran IV excerpt you quoted reminds me a lot of Cloud City - Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker. 

Watched the new Dune yesterday and wondered whether there is a hint of Fremen in the White Walkers, metaphorically, of course.

In the Duniverse the spice produces the blue eyes, in ASoIaF the dragons?

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

In the Duniverse the spice produces the blue eyes, in ASoIaF the dragons?

I do wonder what the Undying, Qaarth and Asshai have to do with each other and if they are responsible for some kind of corruption in the weirnet.

Also, I'm getting a more sinister vibe from Moqorro these days,  Call it a hunch but I don't think his enormous belly can be used only as a flotation device.  Nor do I think it's an ale-belly.  He might be a shadow binder.

 

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do wonder what the Undying, Qaarth and Asshai have to do with each other and if they are responsible for some kind of corruption in the weirnet.

Ghost grass, for example.

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Ghost grass, for example.

Yes there is that.  But what stone voices?  The twisted gargoyles of Bran's dream speak with stone voices.

Are they using glass candles (stones) to communicate? 

Varys tells Tyrion about a certain man using his genitals burned in a brazier and the fire turns blue, he then hears a voice.  There is no mention of a glass candle burning, but perhaps only one is needed to use a fire to communicate with someone else along with some blood magic.  It seems to me that glass enhance light and perhaps fire magic is another medium that it enhances.  Add to that the ability to enter someone's dreams. 

The blue flame calls up images of the blue heart of darkness Dany sees in the House of Undying.  

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

So I guess the question is whether this enemy, in whatever form it takes, can enter the dreams of GSeers or failed GSeers. 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Also, I'm getting a more sinister vibe from Moqorro these days,  Call it a hunch but I don't think his enormous belly can be used only as a flotation device.  Nor do I think it's an ale-belly.  He might be a shadow binder.

That’s a disturbing thought, I wonder where it would come out?

As an aside, I wonder if we first met Moqorro way back in the early days of AGOT:

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They stepped past the eunuch into a pillared courtyard overgrown in pale ivy. Moonlight painted the leaves in shades of bone and silver as the guests drifted among them. Many were Dothraki horselords, big men with red-brown skin, their drooping mustachios bound in metal rings, their black hair oiled and braided and hung with bells. Yet among them moved bravos and sellswords from Pentos and Myr and Tyrosh, a red priest even fatter than Illyrio, hairy men from the Port of Ibben, and lords from the Summer Isles with skin as black as ebony.”.

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s a disturbing thought, I wonder where it would come out?

As an aside, I wonder if we first met Moqorro way back in the early days of AGOT:

 

Well I'm guessing he would expel something from his stomach through the throat and mouth.

Yah really, was he there observing Dany?  Sure looks like it!

[LynnS]

I don't think I should be too complacent with characters that come off as the kindly or reasonable type.  After all Qyburn is presenting himself as a kindly old man but we know he's as foul as it gets.  

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles.

This is the other aspect of this dream that might be linked to another moon:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

 

The moon's twin on the water - my thoughts go to Euron Blood-Eye immediately. 

[alienarea]

We should look at how firewyrms became dragons - who did it, how, when?

And whether there was a Greenseer involved in the doom of Valyria.

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As an aside, I wonder if we first met Moqorro way back in the early days of AGOT:

I wonder he or Benerro had some vision about Dany being the chosen one (of R'hllor) and if they are responsible for Ilyrio giving Dany the dragon eggs.

 

[Tucu]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:32 PM, LynnS said:

Gosh - I'm on another tangent here after revisiting this dream of Bran's:

This seems to be distorted dream of his encounter with Jamie and Cersei and yet it's so different in features and tone.  The windowless blackened stone tower rising above the clouds and the twisted gargoyles whispering in stone voices; things he is not supposed to know or hear.  But it seams he did hear although he denies it.  And he weeps.

This from the coma dream:

Notice how in the first dream cannot fly is repeated twice and in the coma dream falling is repeated twice.  I think these two dreams are connected.  We've talked about what Bran sees in the heart of winter that makes him weep and the terrible knowledge he is exposed to in the 3rd eye of the crow.

The  heart of darkness

I think in the dream, Bran has inadvertently exposed himself to someone far more dangerous to him that Jaime and Cersei and worse; they have seen him.  Bloodraven's cave seems to give him some protection from these watchers/stalkers since he tells Jon they can't see him anymore.

I wonder if the twisted grotesques with eyes like burning coals are Moqorro and Benerro looking for visions in their fires.  We do know that Bran and BR could see Mel and she could see them in her fires.  

 

I re-read Bran's "falling, falling" dream and the imagery lead me to this question: is Bran a comet/meteor in the first part of the dream?

- He has been falling for years:

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It seemed as though he had been falling for years. Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.

- He is high in the sky; 1000 miles would be near the upper section of the Low Earth Orbit; the ISS is at ~250miles and the Starlink satellites will use orbits between 200 and 700 miles

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The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been.

- the word meteor comes from the Greek meteōros, meaning "high in the air"

- the "spiraling" matches the effects of orbital decay

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A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell.

- the word comet comes from Greek κομήτης, meaning "wearing long hair". Bran's red hair grows long while he is sick, matching the red comet's tail

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Catelyn looked at Bran in his sickbed and brushed his hair back off his forehead. It had grown very long, she realized

- these parts might be a reference to the comet burning/melting in the atmosphere:

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Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below.

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Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now.

 

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I re-read Bran's "falling, falling" dream and the imagery lead me to this question: is Bran a comet/meteor in the first part of the dream?

- He has been falling for years:

- He is high in the sky; 1000 miles would be near the upper section of the Low Earth Orbit; the ISS is at ~250miles and the Starlink satellites will use orbits between 200 and 700 miles

- the word meteor comes from the Greek meteōros, meaning "high in the air"

- the "spiraling" matches the effects of orbital decay

- the word comet comes from Greek κομήτης, meaning "wearing long hair". Bran's red hair grows long while he is sick, matching the red comet's tail

- these parts might be a reference to the comet burning/melting in the atmosphere:

 

 

There are different kinds of wings:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand.

"You have wings," Bran pointed out.

Maybe you do too.

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

 

Comet ISON unfolds its wings | Astronomy.com

Also called coma wings:

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Outbursts in the visual light curve and sudden increases in the dust and gas production as well as temporary appearance of so called “coma wings” (arc-lets) are considered indicators for comet splitting. Coma wings are so far seen in split comets only (3 in total) and may represent the most reliable early observational markers of splitting events.

Comet Splitting – Observations and Model Scenarios, "Earth, Moon and Planets" | 10.1023/A:1021538201389 | DeepDyve

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

"I'm flying!" he cried out in delight.

 

 

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There are different kinds of wings:

Comet ISON unfolds its wings | Astronomy.com

Also called coma wings:

Comet Splitting – Observations and Model Scenarios, "Earth, Moon and Planets" | 10.1023/A:1021538201389 | DeepDyve

So the coma of a comet:

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The coma is the nebulous envelope around the nucleus of a comet, formed when the comet passes close to the Sun on its highly elliptical orbit; as the comet warms, parts of it sublimate. This gives a comet a "fuzzy" appearance when viewed in telescopes and distinguishes it from stars. The word coma comes from the Greek "kome" (κόμη), which means "hair" and is the origin of the word comet itself

When fragments split from the nucleus of a comet it may get wing like features (the coma wings you mentioned).

Time to update my headcanon to Bran being the red comet, the stallion that mounts the world and the prince that was promised.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

So the coma of a comet:

When fragments split from the nucleus of a comet it may get wing like features (the coma wings you mentioned).

Time to update my headcanon to Bran being the red comet, the stallion that mounts the world and the prince that was promised.

You might also consider this:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon II

"Call them," Jon said, defiant. "You can't stop me from seeing him." He crossed the room, keeping the bed between them, and looked down on Bran where he lay.

She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks. Under the blanket, his legs bent in ways that made Jon sick. His eyes were sunken deep into black pits; open, but they saw nothing. The fall had shrunken him somehow. He looked half a leaf, as if the first strong wind would carry him off to his grave.

 

And Varamyr's chapter:

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

 

There's no telling where Bran's spirit might go.

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Time to update my headcanon to Bran being the red comet, the stallion that mounts the world and the prince that was promised.

That would be one heck of a twist.  We don't know what kind of powers Bran will develop.  

[Tucu]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You might also consider this:

And Varamyr's chapter:

There's no telling where Bran's spirit might go.

The "strong wind" reference takes us back to the discussions we had before on centaurs and the multiple tails of the great comets:

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Comets are cosmic crumbs of frozen gas, rock and dust left over from the formation of our solar system 4.6 billion years ago — and so they may contain important clues about our solar system’s early history. Those clues are unlocked, as if from a time capsule, every time a comet’s elliptical orbit brings it close to the Sun. Intense heat vaporizes the frozen gases and releases the dust within, which streams behind the comet, forming two distinct tails: an ion tail carried by the solar wind — the constant flow of charged particles from the Sun — and a dust tail.   

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/new-insights-on-comet-tails-are-blowing-in-the-solar-wind

 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The "strong wind" reference takes us back to the discussions we had before on centaurs and the multiple tails of the great comets.

Great video!  Sure looks like hair. I hope that means that at the end of all things; Bran and Hodor can hitch a ride to the nightlands where the stars always burn bright.