Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

     After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit.

This is probably where Bran should have come in the procession, walking beside Rickon.  This is the scene where Jon gets well and truly drunk.  Cersei notices him even though Jon thinks he's invisible to anyone at the high table.

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"Snow, the boy is called," Pycelle said unhelpfully.

"I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father." Her husband's by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. "Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl." The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me. "Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

 

Jon looks like Ned but he's behaving like Robert.

[LynnS]

In the re-read for Jon !, Brynden BFish makes an argument for Tyrion being the bastard son of Aerys prompted by additional information in the World Book.  Poor Quentyn thinks this might be a red herring because we already have the hidden Targ in RLJ.  Keeping in mind that Martin subverts expectations; it looks like RLJ is the red herring and Tyrion is the hidden Targ...Or at least someone with king's blood.

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

 

[Black Crow]

Yes, I like that one   It kinda fits

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, I like that one   It kinda fits

What is the point of Jon's parentage.  Is it just so Jon is the next horned lord or Jon Snow-Storm who rides the ice dragon or does RLJ serve another purpose?

Consider what happens to Tyrion in ADWD.  One of MMD's cryptic signs is "when the sun rises in the West and sets in the East.  Tyrion departs Illyrio's manse through the sunrise gate but says he never saw the sun.  Later he sees the blood moon eclipse and asks if the east has moved (and the sun is rising).  He is also caught up in the eye of a hurricane and sees smoking mountains surrounding the dragonglass sea.  In other words the Smoking Sea a place of salt and smoke.  He's connected to these events/signs like no other character so far.

[LynnS]

In the re-read of Bran II, Brynden BFish brings up the subject of the Fisher King. 

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In Arthurian legend, the Fisher King, also known as the Wounded King or Maimed King, is the last in a long bloodline charged with keeping the Holy Grail. Versions of the original story vary widely, but he is always wounded in the legs or groin and incapable of standing. All he is able to do is fish in a small boat on the river near his castle, Corbenic, and wait for some noble who might be able to heal him by asking a certain question. In later versions, knights travel from many lands to try to heal the Fisher King, but only the chosen can accomplish the feat. This is achieved by Percival alone in the earlier stories; he is joined by Galahad and Bors in the later ones.

This fits the Bran the Blessed and Bran the Broken themes for Bran/Bron.  Bran is te first keeper of the grail and founder of a House of Grail Keepers.  The Starks are grail keepers.  But what is the grail.  Is it the cup of ice, the horn of winter?  What are they guarding?

The grail story also includes magic swords and the story of the grail knight Ser Galahad who has his equivalent in the story of Ser Galladon of Morne.  The sword is excalibur drawn from stone - taken from the Palestone Tower?

So it seems there is a grail story connection between House Stark and House Dayne.

The Fisher King Myth And LEGENDS OF THE HOLY GRAIL: The Truth (timelessmyths.com)

Fisher King - Wikipedia

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

 

The grail cup was buried.  Is this what Mance is looking for in the crypts of Winterfell?  The horn of winter that he failed to find North of the Wall?  

What is the holy grail? - HISTORY

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What is the Grail and why is it important?

According to the legend, this vessel was the source of divine favor because it was thought to be the cup that Jesus used at the Last Supper, or a cup that had caught Jesus’ blood as He hung on the cross. However, not all early Grail stories are consistent on even this. In some stories the Grail is a cup, while in others it is a cauldron or a stone.

 

The broken sword is another motif of the grail legend.  Is Bran the broken sword? Is Jon or Jaimie?

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Sir Galahad mended the broken sword, and therefore, He was allowed to see the Grail. After seeing the Holy Grail, Galahad requested of Joseph of Arimathea that he die, which request was granted unto him. Galahad was always known as the “Perfect Knight” – perfect in courage, gentleness, courtesy, and chivalry.

Sir Galahad - King Arthur's Knights (kingarthursknights.com)

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On one occasion a “sword in a stone” was seen in a river by King Arthur’s knights and legend stated that only the world’s best knight could pull out the sword. Galahad was led into King Arthur’s court where he sat in the Siege Perilous (the vacant seat at the Round Table reserved for the Knight who would one day be successful at recovering the Holy Grail). Following his seat at the Round Table, Galahad then drew the sword from the stone. Years later while at Arthur’s Court, the Holy Grail appeared in a vision to Galahad and showed him that he was one of the three knights chosen to undertake the Quest for the Holy Grail. He was given a white shield, made by Evelake with a red cross which Joseph of Arimathea had drawn in blood.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

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What Does the Grail Symbolize?

The Holy Grail has many symbolic meanings. Here are some:

First and foremost, the Holy Grail is said to represent the cup that Jesus and his disciples drank from at the Last Supper.

To Christians, the Grail symbolizes forgiveness of sins, Jesus’ resurrection and his sacrifices for humanity.

To the Knights Templars, the Holy Grail has been depicted as representing perfection that they strove for.

In the English language, the phrase Holy Grail has come to symbolize something that you want but that is very hard to achieve or get. It’s often used as a metaphor for something that’s highly important or special.

 

Holy Grail – Origins and Symbolism - Symbol Sage

The bolded above is curious because of the number of characters who taste blood in their mouth including Bran, Tyrion and Samwell to name three.  I'm sure there are more.

[LynnS]

I'm getting clobbered with a snow storm.  There must be two feet of snow on the roads right now and no end in sight.  Not a snow plow to be seen.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

In the re-read of Bran II, Brynden BFish brings up the subject of the Fisher King. 

 

I'm pretty sure we've discussed the Fisher King parallels in Heresy before

[Melifeather]

I stumbled upon this info today while listening to a RadioLab podcast. It seems to be the inspiration for the Long Night and the Doom. Did you know that scientists have determined that 536 AD was the worst time in history? Not only was there a volcanic eruption in Iceland that caused much of the northern hemisphere to have an 18 month long winter, scientists believe a fragment from Halley's comet impacted the Earth around that same time.

Halley's comet zooms by every 76 years or so and it would have passed by in 530 AD. It was noted to have been very bright that year. The ancient Greeks had recorded seeing this same comet as far back as 466 BC. Comets are normally dirty snowballs, but when they are breaking apart they shed debris and appear brighter. A 2004 study estimated that one of the fragments that hit Earth in 536 was 2000 feet (600 meters) wide.

People marveled that there were no shadows even at noon, the sun had a bluish cast to it, the moon had lost its luster, and seasons seemed to be all jumbled up together. The effects of the 536 eruption were compounded by additional eruptions in 540 and 547. It caused an ice age that stretched into 680 AD.

The extended winter led to the loss of crops, starvation, and the first recorded emergence of the Black Death.

I suspect that GRRM has included both a Long Night and a Doom to reflect that there were two events around the same period of time  - a supervolcano explosion and a fragment of a comet - that caused world wide death. Halley's comet is the red comet that keeps returning to Westeros and the super volcanic eruption is the Doom. The repeated volcanic eruptions that occurred subsequently, the starvation, people resorting to eating the dead, and then the plagues to follow...are all natural disasters that are attributed to magic in our story.

[LynnS]

I have to go out and move snow around. 

[LynnS]

Geez, I got my deck and the area in front of my car done and someone came over plowed the rest of my drive out!  Now I'm waiting for the plows to clear the road and fill it back in.

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Geez, I got my deck and the area in front of my car done and someone came over plowed the rest of my drive out!  Now I'm waiting for the plows to clear the road and fill it back in.

Happens to me too. I get just about done shoveling and then here comes the plow! WHOOSH! Three feet high and same or more wide. 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Happens to me too. I get just about done shoveling and then here comes the plow! WHOOSH! Three feet high and same or more wide. 

The snow on the road is already 3 feet high and 2 more hours of snow forecast. Possible freezing rain later.  It will be heavy to move.  But nobody is getting out on my street until the plows go by.

[alienarea]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

The snow on the road is already 3 feet high and 2 more hours of snow forecast. Possible freezing rain later.  It will be heavy to move.  But nobody is getting out on my street until the plows go by.

I guess winter is coming.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

In the re-read for Jon !, Brynden BFish makes an argument for Tyrion being the bastard son of Aerys prompted by additional information in the World Book.  Poor Quentyn thinks this might be a red herring because we already have the hidden Targ in RLJ.  Keeping in mind that Martin subverts expectations; it looks like RLJ is the red herring and Tyrion is the hidden Targ...Or at least someone with king's blood.

And there has been some work in connecting Tyrion with dragons.  He’s awfully interested in them, and has dragon related dreams.  We’ve got nothing of the sort with Jon.  There’s also a chapter in ACOK where Tyrion is playing “monsters and maidens” with Shae and chasing her through the dragon skulls in the cellar of the Red Keep. There’s an interesting line in there about how Tyrion is out of breath from running into one dragon skull after another.  So I think GRRM has laid a bit of ground work in with Tyrion.

My own suspicion is that Jon’s story arc has more to do with Siegfried/Sigurd, a famous dragon slayer in Norse mythology, and/or Siegfried’s magic sword Gram, while Tyrion lines up pretty well with the dragon Siegfried slays, the dwarf turned dragon Fafnir.  

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

Consider what happens to Tyrion in ADWD.  One of MMD's cryptic signs is "when the sun rises in the West and sets in the East.  Tyrion departs Illyrio's manse through the sunrise gate but says he never saw the sun.  Later he sees the blood moon eclipse and asks if the east has moved (and the sun is rising).  He is also caught up in the eye of a hurricane and sees smoking mountains surrounding the dragonglass sea.  In other words the Smoking Sea a place of salt and smoke.  He's connected to these events/signs like no other character so far.

You can also make a pretty good argument that the rebirth in salt/smoke lines up pretty well with Tyrion setting the Blackwater on fire.  It was a pretty momentous change in Tyrion’s story arc, born amongst the smoke and salty water of the Blackwater.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And there has been some work in connecting Tyrion with dragons.  He’s awfully interested in them, and has dragon related dreams

We don't have much on Tyrion's dreams because he gets drunk to avoid dreaming.  The one we have seen is pretty horrific.  In AGOT he teases Jon about dragon dreams and what boy hasn't dreamt of riding dragons.  

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm pretty sure we've discussed the Fisher King parallels in Heresy before

I'm afraid I don't remember much about it.  Did we discuss that the Grail Keepers are the Night Watch (the House that Bran built)?

  

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm afraid I don't remember much about it.  Did we discuss that the Grail Keepers are the Night Watch (the House that Bran built)?

  

Not that I remember, I think we were  talking about the parallels of the Fisher King and Bran the Blessed and how they form a very clear model for the crippled Bran Stark

[Melifeather]

I'm hung up on Genna's comment to Jaime that - 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

I took this to mean that Tyrion thinks and acts like Tywin - he's the one that is most like him. Genna thinks Jaime is more like Gerion, Tyg, and Kevan.

[LynnS]

God bless good neighbors and good samaritans!  They didn't plow the streets until 1 am yesterday and when I got up, the fellow who plows out my neighbors drive, cleared me out too!  How nice is that!  The snowbanks are so high you have to be extra careful getting on the highway to see oncoming traffic.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not that I remember, I think we were  talking about the parallels of the Fisher King and Bran the Blessed and how they form a very clear model for the crippled Bran Stark

@Julia H.has some interesting ideas about the Houses of Night and Day that make a lot of sense when you think of Grail objects and Grail keepers.  Swords and cups.  We do literally have a broken cup. Broken swords in need of repair could refer to the hero's journey of grail knights (broken swords).

@Alexis-something-Rosealso brought up the story of Galladon of Morne, The Perfect Knight which again fits in with the Grail Knight motif.

Seems both these Houses will be needed at the Wall

On the subject of the horn of winter; Poor Quentin suggests that Euron might get his hands on it and blow it to let the Others pass the Wall.  I do think Sam is in jeopardy with Euron so close to Oldtown, surely his next stop.  But the horn is broken and can't be winded, it's missing part is at the Wall with Tormund. My guess is that Euron wouldn't recognize the humble broken horn as anything of value.  He would be looking for a 'golden cup' encrusted in jewels. 

How much Euron can see with his metaphysical crow's third eye or what he sees juiced up on psychadelic  shade of the evening could put him on Sam's trail.  Sam always seems to escape these dangers by the skin of his teeth and perhaps with some help from a certain faceless man and a sphynx. 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'm hung up on Genna's comment to Jaime that - 

I took this to mean that Tyrion thinks and acts like Tywin - he's the one that is most like him. Genna thinks Jaime is more like Gerion, Tyg, and Kevan.

Interesting.  nature versus nuture.