Frey family reunion Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: So where are these Stark "vassal holdfasts" ?; where are their sons and daughters and descendants ? It’s a good question. If you look at the Stark family tree in the World book, there are all sort of second, third, etc Stark brothers who married other Northern houses and had issue we just don’t hear what happened to those lines. One possibility is that we have all sorts of minor Stark “knightly” families in the North who are of no real note. An example of this is a Gulltown “Arryn” who while carrying the Arryn name is still considered very minor nobility being only a distant cousin of Lord Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Here is another reference to flowers or wearing flowers in the hair" Quote A Clash of Kings - Prologue Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Nennymoans or anenomes (the flower) known as the windflower and associated with the death of Adonis (killed by a boar). Springing up from the ground from the bloody tears of Aphrodite. Quote "Anemone" has several different meanings depending on the culture and context in which the flower is being used. Several of the Western meanings of anemone flowers pertain to the Greek mythology of the origin of the anemone flower featuring Adonis and Aphrodite. The goddess Aphrodite kept the mortal man Adonis as a lover; when Adonis was gored by a wild boar, Aphrodite's tears at his death mixed with his blood and gave rise to the anemone.[18] In other versions, the boar was sent by other jealous Greek gods to murder Adonis.[19] These origin stories reflect the classical dual meanings of the arrival of spring breezes and the death of a loved one. In the Victorian language of flowers, the anemone[which?] represented a forsaken love of any kind, while European peasants carried them[which?] to ward off pests and disease as well as bad luck. Quote According to the Oxford English Dictionary, Greek ἀνεμώνη (anemōnē) means 'daughter of the wind', from ἄνεμος (ánemos, 'wind') + feminine patronymic suffix -ώνη (-ṓnē, so 'daughter of').[11] The Metamorphoses of Ovid tells that the plant was created by the goddess Aphrodite when she sprinkled nectar on the blood of her dead lover Adonis, and Ovid describes the etymology as referring to the frailty of the petals that can be easily blown away by the wind. "Anemone" may also refer to Nea'man, the Phoenician name for Adonis, referring to an earlier Syrian myth of the god of vegetation, also tusked by a boar.[12] The common name windflower is used for the entire genus.[13][14] Anemone - Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 I can't quote chapter and verse, but I do recall there was an SSM in which GRRM evaded the question and vaguely talked about distant relatives far far away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Presumably you have to hedge your bets in case your first son is killed off, or his wife proves infertile, or their children die young. I don’t think you can afford to lose your second son to a Night’s Watch vow. Presumably, Catelyn proved her fertility and produced an heir, so it was no longer necessary for Benjen to stick around. I think Benjen cleared out before she got to Winterfell. So I'm not sure what influence Ned had on that decision either, assuming the letter of the code was observed, and Benjen didn't leave until Ned returned.. I'm inclined to think that the decision to send the 3rd son to the Wall was made by Rickard with Benjen's agreement. I think Benjen could have stayed at Winterfell, if he chose, given Ned's feelings about sending Jon to the Wall. The Starks are big on honor, so perhaps Benjen chose to go to the holdfast at the Wall, like Jon without really knowing what it meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: I can't quote chapter and verse, but I do recall there was an SSM in which GRRM evaded the question and vaguely talked about distant relatives far far away LOL! I don't think Ned made the decision for Benjen to go to the Wall. I think it was already a done deal and it was Benjen's decision. The question is whether Ned told him the truth about Jon knowing the secret would be buried at the Wall.. It would make for a more interesting story if he did and those in the know are usually killed outright or hidden off page. If it is true, then do any of Benjen's close confidants know anything? They are quite a secretive bunch when it suits them. Jon has not yet taken his vows when Benjen goes on the ranging; so keeping his lineage a secret would be important if such knowledge is something he can't yet handle or something that would put him in danger. Benjen might also face the same dilemma about Jon, as Rob in not knowing how much to tell Bran. There is the feeling that Benjen wanted Jon as a son and thinks it's a pity that he wasn't Jon's father or step-father. After all, he loved Lyanna as much as Ned. I have wondered about Donal Noye and what he knows. Especially when he tells Jon about Robert, Stannis and Renly. This is in the context of being the true steel, some kind of comparison between Jon and the Baratheons. What does Maester Aemon know? He says clearly that Jon is a son Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Trucker convoy arrives in Ottawa yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 17 hours ago, LynnS said: Trucker convoy arrives in Ottawa yesterday. One of them has a rubber duck? Had a facebook meme today joking that with the rise of self-driving vehicles it won't be long until we get a country song where the trucker gets left by his truck. "You picked a fine to leave me GMC ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back in Black-Snow Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 19 hours ago, LynnS said: Trucker convoy arrives in Ottawa yesterday. Let freedom ring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 It's the Freezing Man festival up North: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I Tyrion propped himself against the pillows, his head in his hands. "Do I dream, or do you speak the Common Tongue?" "Yes, my lord. I was bought to please the king." She was blue-eyed and fair, young and willowy. "I am sure you did. I need a cup of wine." Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I "She did all that was required of her." "I would hope so. She was trained in Lys, where they make an art of love. The king enjoyed her greatly." "I kill kings, hadn't you heard?" Tyrion smiled evilly over his wine cup. "I want no royal leavings." Who is this king? Joffrey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 one presumes so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Oh my broken eyes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I wonder if the reason why there aren't vassal holdfasts is because the Starks have produced so few males that lived long enough to sire children? The unreleased novella about the She-wolves of Winterfell seems to imply that Bael was needed to provide bastard(s) on a daughter of Winterfell. As for why Benjen went to the Wall...Ned was the spare. Don't forget the heir (Brandon) had been executed. Ned's offspring: Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Brandon, and Rickon Rickard's offspring: Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen Edwyle's offspring: Rickard Willam's offspring: Brandon, Jocelyn, and Edwyle Beron's offspring: Donnor, Willam, Berena, Artos, Alysanne, Errold, and Rodrik (Rodrik's daughter married Rickard!) If I recall correctly, Beron is the lord in the She-wolves novella. It may be that Willam is the bastard as Donnar and Errold died without issue or were even married. Donnar did become lord after his father, but he died before he could marry. There is a possibility that Artos and Rodrik are not Beron's natural children either. Especially considering that Rodrik's daughter Lyarra was young enough to marry her cousin's son. If you look at Beron's time of death there is a 14 year range of 212-226. The same goes for the birth years for Artos and Rodrik. We're given ranges. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 53 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I wonder if the reason why there aren't vassal holdfasts is because the Starks have produced so few males that lived long enough to sire children? The unreleased novella about the She-wolves of Winterfell seems to imply that Bael was needed to provide bastard(s) on a daughter of Winterfell. As for why Benjen went to the Wall...Ned was the spare. Don't forget the heir (Brandon) had been executed. Ned's offspring: Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Brandon, and Rickon Rickard's offspring: Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen Edwyle's offspring: Rickard Willam's offspring: Brandon, Jocelyn, and Edwyle Beron's offspring: Donnor, Willam, Berena, Artos, Alysanne, Errold, and Rodrik (Rodrik's daughter married Rickard!) If I recall correctly, Beron is the lord in the She-wolves novella. It may be that Willam is the bastard as Donnar and Errold died without issue or were even marriage. Donnar did become lord after his father, but he died before he could marry. There is a possibility that Artos and Rodrik are not Beron's natural children too. Especially considering that Rodrik's daughter Lyarra was young enough to marry her cousin's son. If you look at Beron's time of death there is a 14 year range of 212-226. The same goes for the birth years for Artos and Rodrik. We're given ranges. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. I think that this may be a symptom rather than a cause of the problem. Essentially, the Stark line is being savagely pruned. Over on this side of the pond, family and legal histories are full of more or less distant claimants to extinct titles. In Westerosi terms the failure of the Stark line would be followed by the cadet branches [the sons and descendants of those younger sons farmed out to holdfasts] queuing up to lay claim to the Stark crown. But it aint happening because those cadet branches don't exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Deleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: I think that this may be a symptom rather than a cause of the problem. Essentially, the Stark line is being savagely pruned. Over on this side of the pond, family and legal histories are full of more or less distant claimants to extinct titles. In Westerosi terms the failure of the Stark line would be followed by the cadet branches [the sons and descendants of those younger sons farmed out to holdfasts] queuing up to lay claim to the Stark crown. But it aint happening because those cadet branches don't exist Maybe the current Starks are the offspring of the original Others? The reason why the cadet branches do not exist might be genetic. Because their DNA is compatibel to the Other DNA (Night King and his pale bride), the Starks predominantly breed women? Need to think about this more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 There's something going on that GRRM is deliberately hiding from us Benjen provides a very clear illustration As remarked above, Lord Rickard has no known brothers or uncles, but he does have three sons: an heir, a spare, and Benjen. The heir perishes with him, so the spare steps up [Eddard] and Benjen gets promoted to spare Benjen remains the spare while Eddard is away to the war, and therefore in danger, but the war ends and a new heir is born, so Benjen is demoted and instead of being given a holdfast gets shuffled off to the Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 8 hours ago, Black Crow said: There's something going on that GRRM is deliberately hiding from us Benjen provides a very clear illustration As remarked above, Lord Rickard has no known brothers or uncles, but he does have three sons: an heir, a spare, and Benjen. The heir perishes with him, so the spare steps up [Eddard] and Benjen gets promoted to spare Benjen remains the spare while Eddard is away to the war, and therefore in danger, but the war ends and a new heir is born, so Benjen is demoted and instead of being given a holdfast gets shuffled off to the Wall Perhaps Benjen doesn't leave until Ned fathers Robb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 8 hours ago, Black Crow said: There's something going on that GRRM is deliberately hiding from us Benjen provides a very clear illustration As remarked above, Lord Rickard has no known brothers or uncles, but he does have three sons: an heir, a spare, and Benjen. The heir perishes with him, so the spare steps up [Eddard] and Benjen gets promoted to spare Benjen remains the spare while Eddard is away to the war, and therefore in danger, but the war ends and a new heir is born, so Benjen is demoted and instead of being given a holdfast gets shuffled off to the Wall Perhaps a hint of the Night's King? He seems to have been put down by his brother--could easily be a NW brother. But since we have traces of the Sword of the Morning and Sword of the Evening in Dorne (traces I think are tied to the Night's King)--perhaps the Starks having one in Winterfell and one at the Wall--a hint at the need to guard? And to be on guard for another Night's King? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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