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Heresy 241 A Winter Rose


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To complicate matters, there is an SSM somewhere where GRRM said that Dany was born 6 to 8 months after Jon.  So she was born in 283 AC and not 284 AC.

She also has a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader kinda thing going on:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Himself) on Dagobah - YouTube

If Darth Rhaegar is her daddy; who is her mommy?

 

 

Edited by LynnS
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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well the Luke Skywalker comparison makes sense now:

Game of Thrones’ Alfie Allen on Theon’s Finale Speech, His Daddy Issues, and George R.R. Martin’s Love of Lily Allen (vulture.com)

We know that Ned was Jon's uncle and not his father.  That makes Ned's "brother" Robert, Jon's father.

That means that Lyanna was pregnant when she disappeared and Jon could not have been born more than nine months afterwards.

This is as close as we will get to any sort of dates:

So at the latest Jon could be born is Sept of 282AC.  Ned goes to the Tower of Joy at the end of Robert's Rebellion in 283AC.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

To complicate matters, there is an SSM somewhere where GRRM said that Dany was born 6 to 8 months after Jon.  So she was born in 283 AC and not 284 AC.

She also has a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader kinda thing going on:

Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Himself) on Dagobah - YouTube

If Darth Rhaegar is her daddy; who is her mommy?

 

 

Not sure if you came to the right conclusions. 

We have a good understanding when Daenerys was born, and taking into account that Jon was born 6 - 8 months before her (which fits with him being close to Robb's age one way or the other). 

In my understanding of timelines this does not fit with Lyanna being pregnant at Harrenhal, or being pregnant but not with Jon.

 

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Not sure if you came to the right conclusions.

Ok so assuming Robert is Jon's father that may or might not be the right conclusion.  I'm going to say for the moment that it's correct.  Then according to the World Book, Rhaegar went missing at the turn of the year in 281 AC.  Assuming that Robert is Jon's father, Lyanna would have been pregnant at that time.  Since we don't know how many months she was pregnant, we can only say that Jon was born no later than 9 months after she was taken by Rhaegar. I assume the new year starts in January and he took her in the the first month of the new year..  Then Jon would have been born in 282 AC.

Is there something wrong with the math?   

Edited by LynnS
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OK, I know Baratheon is a name that cannot and must not be spoken, anywhere near the fandom, except in hushed tones; but I think it's relatively safe.

I'm still in shock, really.  After 10+ years, I'm not sure I believe it myself.

Edited by LynnS
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Mance has been looking for Joramun's Horn of Winter in the graves of giants in the Frostfangs.  They find a giant's horn probably made of mammoth ivory turned black but not the horn that "wakes giant's in the earth".

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"Why are you crying, then?"

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!

 

Ygritte tells Jon they never found it.  Ghost finds it at the base of the Fist of the First.  This is the "giant's fist".

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A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

The hill jutted above the dense tangle of forest, rising solitary and sudden, its windswept heights visible from miles off. The wildlings called it the Fist of the First Men, rangers said. It did look like a fist, Jon Snow thought, punching up through earth and wood, its bare brown slopes knuckled with stone.

He rode to the top with Lord Mormont and the officers, leaving Ghost below under the trees. The direwolf had run off three times as they climbed, twice returning reluctantly to Jon's whistle. The third time, the Lord Commander lost patience and snapped, "Let him go, boy. I want to reach the crest before dusk. Find the wolf later."

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

The way up was steep and stony, the summit crowned by a chest-high wall of tumbled rocks. They had to circle some distance west before they found a gap large enough to admit the horses. "This is good ground, Thoren," the Old Bear proclaimed when at last they attained the top. "We could scarce hope for better. We'll make our camp here to await Halfhand." The Lord Commander swung down off his saddle, dislodging the raven from his shoulder. Complaining loudly, the bird took to the air.

The views atop the hill were bracing, yet it was the ringwall that drew Jon's eye, the weathered grey stones with their white patches of lichen, their beards of green moss. It was said that the Fist had been a ringfort of the First Men in the Dawn Age. "An old place, and strong," Thoren Smallwood said.

"Old," Mormont's raven screamed as it flapped in noisy circles about their heads. "Old, old, old."

 

Quote

 

Legends and folklore concerning ringforts and rounds[edit]

The materials used to construct ringforts frequently disintegrated over time. Tradition associated their circular remains with fairies and leprechauns, and they were called “fairy forts". Castle Pencaire on Tregonning Hill was regarded as the abode of giants.[11] Chun Castle in Morvah is related as the home of the giant Denbras who is buried by the character Tom at Chun Quoit from oral folklore recorded by William Bottrell published 1870.[12] Kelly Rounds (Castle Kilibury) in Triggshire is often proposed as the location of King Arthur's Celliwig, known from the Welsh poem Pa Gwr yw y Porthawr? and described in the 11th century Culhwch and Olwen. Castle Dore is often proposed as the court of King Mark (Mergh Cunomor / Marcus Cunomorus) in the romance Drustan hac Yseult, the doomed hero sailing the seas from Brittany to Ireland to seek his love.

 

Ringfort - Wikipedia

Chûn_Castle_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1065624.jpg (640×480) (wikimedia.org)

4d1294e0dd0c3adb945d00256c8c4dd9.jpg (800×570) (pinimg.com)

 

 

Edited by LynnS
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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

To complicate matters, there is an SSM somewhere where GRRM said that Dany was born 6 to 8 months after Jon.  So she was born in 283 AC and not 284 AC.

She also has a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader kinda thing going on:

Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Himself) on Dagobah - YouTube

If Darth Rhaegar is her daddy; who is her mommy?

 

 

According to the SSM their birth dates were separated by 8 to 9 months.

Quote

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

 

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7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to the SSM their birth dates were separated by 8 to 9 months.

Thank you.  I arbitrarily picked September as the month Jon was born.  It could a month or so earlier but Sept is also GRRM's birth month and easy for him to remember.  If this is correct, then Dany was born in May or June of 283 AC,  Is that the storm season?  Implications for ToJ and Starfall.   .   

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OK, I've already stuck my neck out, why stop now.

We know in Robert's deathbed scene that Ned promises to do what Robert asks him to do.  But he doesn't want to make Joffrey the heir and rationalizes changing the promise in his own mind so that Robert can die in peace.

This conjures up Lyanna and the promises he made to her when she was dying. She has to beg him until he finally agrees so she can die in peace. So did he also agree to something and then do what he thought was best regarding Jon? 

He never tells Robert about Jon.  He gets defensive and angry when Robert asks about Ned's bastard and Jon's mother  Why do we have a rumour that Lyanna died at the ToJ and was Ned responsible?  Is it because dead men tell no tales? 

We know Ned was with Lyanna when she died. How did infant Jon end up at Starfall?  It seems that Ned knew where she was hidden and Darth Rhaegar caught her but lost her.  Since this takes place in the area around Harrenhall; it seems likely to me that she was hidden on the Quiet Isle, a place with a smuggler's cove.  It's also close to the Vale and the Eyrie and accessible by Ned.. 

What was Ned doing around that time? Does the story of the Fisherman's Daughter line up with Ned's movements around the time of Lyanna's death?  

 

 

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If you haven't listened to PoorQuentyn podcasts; he is definately worth listening to for an understanding of Euron's psychology and agenda.  I posted his essay on the Eldritch Apocolypse upthread.  I've been listening to him on Joe Magician's livestream: Euron: The Eldritch Apocalypse with PoorQuentyn | ASOIAF Quaranstream.  I can't link it because the livestream has ended.  But you can find it on youtube.

Euron represents the void, he's the opposite of Bran, he's brings the darkness that will cover the earth.  He's the horror dropped into the middle of the story.

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Hah! This is an interesting chat with Poor Quentyn and Radio Westeros about Theon beginning with The Winds of Winter Chapter and Theon potentially being brought before a wierwood tree for execution or judgement.  Lady Gwyn talks about the timeline, but I recognize the moment as another time and causality moment.

The Streams of Winter v.3 - Theon - YouTube

You'll have to look it up on youtube.  Link does not work.

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Ok, I thought of something that is probably complete BS, but would be really neat if true.  So with the caveat that I don’t even really believe this, here goes.

I’m sure we all recall that odd chapter in the Sorrows, where the Shy Maid passes under the Bridge of Dreams.  It’s where we first see a potential glitch in the matrix.  The boat passes under the Bridge of Dreams with no incident.  But then somehow, the boat returns to the same point and passes under the Bridge again, and this time Tyrion and company are attacked by the Stone Men.  It may be a very significant development because this is the point that Tyrion gets knocked overboard and Connington contracts greyscale diving in to save him.

So why the time loop?  Was it necessary for this even to have happened so someone or something rewound the event to make sure it did?  And if so, has GRRM stealthily put in a similar scenario earlier in the series.  Where we viewed an event that was a glitch in the matrix?

Since we’re dealing with time, the character I’d be most interested in is Bran.  And there is one odd chapter which in fact doesn’t deal with Bran.  In fact, oddly enough, it’s a chapter where there is no mention or hint of Bran, even though there probably should be.

It’s Jon’s very first POV chapter.  When he’s in the Great Hall of Winterfell.  Jon is getting very drunk and watching his family and the King’s family proceed through the hall.  Well almost all of Jon’s family:

Quote

     The procession had passed not a foot from the place he had been given on the bench, and Jon had gotten a good long look at them all.
     His lord father had come first, escorting the queen. She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes. His father helped her up the steps to the dais and led her to her seat, but the queen never so much as looked at him. Even at fourteen, Jon could see through her smile.
     Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.
     After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.
     His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.
     He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen’s brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back.
Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.
     Then he saw the other one, waddling along half-hidden by his brother’s side. Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin’s brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother’s height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute’s squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination.
     The last of the high lords to enter were his uncle, Benjen Stark of the Night’s Watch, and his father’s ward, young Theon Greyjoy. Benjen gave Jon a warm smile as he went by. Theon ignored him utterly, but there was nothing new in that. After all had been seated, toasts were made, thanks were made, thanks were given and returned, and then the feasting began.

So umm, where’s Bran?  In fact there is no mention of Bran at all in the chapter.  Almost as if he doesn’t exist.  And there is one more strange bit about this chapter.  In it, Benjen approaches Jon about the idea of Jon joining the Night’s Watch.  Benjen then seems to think better of it and basically tells Jon that he’s not ready for that commitment.

Yet oddly enough in the very next chapter Luwin tells the Starks that Benjen had approached him and told him about Jon wanting to join the Night’s Watch. Why would Benjen do this if he had already talked himself out of wanting Jon to join?

So is it possible that we saw a glitch in the matrix?  A chapter stuck in the midst of the story where Bran doesn’t exist, perhaps was written out of the timeline. And perhaps where Jon doesn’t join the Night’s Watch.  Which would undoubtably have had a huge change in the direction of our tale.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So is it possible that we saw a glitch in the matrix?  A chapter stuck in the midst of the story where Bran doesn’t exist, perhaps was written out of the timeline. And perhaps where Jon doesn’t join the Night’s Watch.  Which would undoubtably have had a huge change in the direction of our tale.

Geez!  How weird is that?  The only place Bran could be watching is the weirwood tree.

The Stone Bridge seems to be suggestive of an Einstein-Rosen bridge.  Einstein translating from German to English as a stone. 

Edit:  Rosen translates from German to English as roses. 

What Bran does is bridge time between the past and the future.  Or he experiences time as a bridge between past and future.

Edited by LynnS
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23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ok, I thought of something that is probably complete BS, but would be really neat if true.  So with the caveat that I don’t even really believe this, here goes.

I’m sure we all recall that odd chapter in the Sorrows, where the Shy Maid passes under the Bridge of Dreams.  It’s where we first see a potential glitch in the matrix.  The boat passes under the Bridge of Dreams with no incident.  But then somehow, the boat returns to the same point and passes under the Bridge again, and this time Tyrion and company are attacked by the Stone Men.  It may be a very significant development because this is the point that Tyrion gets knocked overboard and Connington contracts greyscale diving in to save him.

So why the time loop?  Was it necessary for this even to have happened so someone or something rewound the event to make sure it did?  And if so, has GRRM stealthily put in a similar scenario earlier in the series.  Where we viewed an event that was a glitch in the matrix?

Since we’re dealing with time, the character I’d be most interested in is Bran.  And there is one odd chapter which in fact doesn’t deal with Bran.  In fact, oddly enough, it’s a chapter where there is no mention or hint of Bran, even though there probably should be.

It’s Jon’s very first POV chapter.  When he’s in the Great Hall of Winterfell.  Jon is getting very drunk and watching his family and the King’s family proceed through the hall.  Well almost all of Jon’s family:

So umm, where’s Bran?  In fact there is no mention of Bran at all in the chapter.  Almost as if he doesn’t exist.  And there is one more strange bit about this chapter.  In it, Benjen approaches Jon about the idea of Jon joining the Night’s Watch.  Benjen then seems to think better of it and basically tells Jon that he’s not ready for that commitment.

Yet oddly enough in the very next chapter Luwin tells the Starks that Benjen had approached him and told him about Jon wanting to join the Night’s Watch. Why would Benjen do this if he had already talked himself out of wanting Jon to join?

So is it possible that we saw a glitch in the matrix?  A chapter stuck in the midst of the story where Bran doesn’t exist, perhaps was written out of the timeline. And perhaps where Jon doesn’t join the Night’s Watch.  Which would undoubtably have had a huge change in the direction of our tale.

I think there are probably two explanations. [1] you are right about a glitch in the matrix, or [2] this was one of the 13 initial chapters which accompanied the initial synopsis. Bran didn't yet exist and got missed when GRRM retconned the early chapters to include him

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think there are probably two explanations. [1] you are right about a glitch in the matrix, or [2] this was one of the 13 initial chapters which accompanied the initial synopsis. Bran didn't yet exist and got missed when GRRM retconned the early chapters to include him

It so difficult to imagine George missing that especially since Bran's first chapter follows the prologue.  Now I'm curious to see BFish and Poor Quentyn pick that up in the re-read.  But I'm still on the Prologue.  

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Synopsis from re-read podcast on Bran I:

Quote

The chapter that started it all. A GAME OF THRONES, BRAN I was the first chapters that George RR Martin ever wrote. And boy is it a doozy. Join PoorQuentyn and BryndenBFish as they break down and analyze this chapter, talk about how ASOIAF came into being and get ethereal with their theories.

 

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Yes, these re-read podcasts are really interesting.  Poor Quentyn points out that just about everything George does is about subverting expectations.

In Bran 1, I was struck by the notion that the mother direwolf dies giving birth, killed by a stag.

Another potential time/causality loop with Jon hearing Ghost and Ghosts's eyes being the first to open with Ghost being described as connective tissue to the old gods, specifically Bloodraven.  However, it's Tree-Bran who touches Ghost-Jon and opens his third eye.  It's Bran who speaks to Jon with a silent shout.   

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15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

     After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit.

This is probably where Bran should have come in the procession, walking beside Rickon.  This is the scene where Jon gets well and truly drunk.  Cersei notices him even though Jon thinks he's invisible to anyone at the high table.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"Snow, the boy is called," Pycelle said unhelpfully.

"I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father." Her husband's by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. "Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl." The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me. "Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

 

Jon looks like Ned but he's behaving like Robert.

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