Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[LynnS]

Googling around. I found this amusing reference to the biblical origins of the saying "by the skin of your teeth', a comedy:

The Skin of Our Teeth - Wikipedia

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Act one is an amalgam of early 20th century New Jersey and the dawn of the Ice Age. The father is inventing things such as the lever, the wheel, the alphabet, and multiplication tables. The family (the Antrobuses) and the entire northeastern U.S. face extinction by a wall of ice moving southward from Canada.

 

[LynnS]

Emmett is so interesting.  I love listening to him.

Special Episode: ”Sons of Fire” (podbean.com)

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Googling around. I found this amusing reference to the biblical origins of the saying "by the skin of your teeth', a comedy:

The Skin of Our Teeth - Wikipedia

 

Oh you Canadians! You keep that ice to yourself!

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Oh you Canadians! You keep that ice to yourself!

LOL! There's even a character in this play about civilization called Abel.

I recall once thinking that the Wall wasn't built so much as it was a relic of the last ice age on Planetos.  That it was built by fixing the leading edge of an ice sheet in place with magic.  GSeers were the 'giants' who fixed it with a great lore. 

[LynnS]

I can't get enough of Poor Quentyn.  Now I'm trolling his Tumblr notes. 

He thinks Ned was putting out Wylla's name as the cover story for Jon's birth:

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we hear about Wylla from another source than Robert and Edric. We also hear about Wylla from Godric Borrell, the Lord of Sisterton. There’s no explanation for that save Ned Stark spreading the story to make sure that people have a cover story for Jon Snow.

Poor Quentyn. (tumblr.com)

This is the Fisherman's Daughter story.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Davos I

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "

 

When did Jon Arryn take Gulltown?  Gulltown was the first battle of Robert's Rebellion and Ned was spreading around Wylla and Jon Snow's name.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I can't get enough of Poor Quentyn.  Now I'm trolling his Tumblr notes. 

He thinks Ned was putting out Wylla's name as the cover story for Jon's birth:

Poor Quentyn. (tumblr.com)

This is the Fisherman's Daughter story.

When did Jon Arryn take Gulltown?  Gulltown was the first battle of Robert's Rebellion and Ned was spreading around Wylla and Jon Snow's name.

I think people like seeing what they want to see.  And obviously GRRM is playing up that issue.

Ned probably lands in Wyl en route to the tower of joy.  And probably every other woman in that region is named Wylla.  

As for House Manderly, just look at the names: Wyman Manderly (grandpa) Wylis Manderly (father), Wynafryd (sister), Wylla.  It’s a family name honoring the Lord of White Harbor.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think people like seeing what they want to see.  And obviously GRRM is playing up that issue.

Ned probably lands in Wyl en route to the tower of joy.  And probably every other woman in that region is named Wylla.  

As for House Manderly, just look at the names: Wyman Manderly (grandpa) Wylis Manderly (father), Wynafryd (sister), Wylla.  It’s a family name honoring the Lord of White Harbor.

It is a common name.  Like naming a child after a celebrity.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

 

 

[LynnS]

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

Jon kept his face as still as ice. Foul enough to slay a man in his own tent under truce. Must I murder him in front of his wife as their child is being born? He closed the fingers of his sword hand. Mance was not wearing armor, but his own sword was sheathed on his left hip. And there were other weapons in the tent, daggers and dirks, a bow and a quiver of arrows, a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black . . .

. . . horn.

Jon sucked in his breath.

A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.

"Yes," Mance said. "The Horn of Winter, that Joramun once blew to wake giants from the earth."

The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

 

Mance's fake Horn of Winter is likely mammoth ivory found in a giant's grave.  Kitted out with old gold torques engraved with runes of the first men.  

j.jpg (800×532) (gogetfunding.com).

Black mammoth ivory:

s396241073584553_p3007_i3_w800.jpeg (800×600) (fossilshack.com)

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A little mineral absorption plus a key ingredient, time! The woolly mammoth ivory we find at the Boneyard has been buried in the ice and muck for tens of thousands of years. Over time, the minerals and colors in the icy mud are absorbed by the ivory, changing its color to the colors of the mud and minerals it's buried in. Typically, the tusks we find have a dark exterior and a white interior. Minerals are more easily absorbed by the closest material to it. Therefore, the center of the tusk remains white because the minerals are not in direct contact with it. So why the blue?

Is Woolly Mammoth Ivory Always White? — Explora Designs

a7a28e0764b0db82b7826f28c84c49e2_large.jpg (1500×1500) (touchofmodern.com)

 

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I can't get enough of Poor Quentyn.  Now I'm trolling his Tumblr notes. 

He thinks Ned was putting out Wylla's name as the cover story for Jon's birth:

Poor Quentyn. (tumblr.com)

This is the Fisherman's Daughter story.

When did Jon Arryn take Gulltown?  Gulltown was the first battle of Robert's Rebellion and Ned was spreading around Wylla and Jon Snow's name.

With this backstory we can place Jon Snow's birth around nine months after Ned calls his banners, can't we? Even if the story is fake, the timeline needs to fit for common people  to believe it.

Which implies the following:

- Jon Snow's mother could have gotten pregnant around the tourney of Harrenhal

- if Lyanna is his mother and she died in childbirth that must have happened before the ToJ unless the pregnancy was quite long ;)

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, alienarea said:

With this backstory we can place Jon Snow's birth around nine months after Ned calls his banners, can't we? Even if the story is fake, the timeline needs to fit for common people  to believe it.

Which implies the following:

- Jon Snow's mother could have gotten pregnant around the tourney of Harrenhal

- if Lyanna is his mother and she died in childbirth that must have happened before the ToJ unless the pregnancy was quite long

I'm not sure what it implies.  The best date to start is Rhaegar falling upon her at the turn of the year when he took off with his six companions to the Riverlands.  I do find the story of the Fisherman's Daughter questionable.  But there is a story about him impregnating someone.  Whether he's putting that out as a cover story or it's embellishing the story after the fact is the question.  So unless the battle of Gulltown took place around September 282 AC, I don't know how it could corroborate the two stories.  But Ned seems to have been in this area at the beginning of the Rebellion.  Not conclusive.  Regardless, the ToJ takes place at the end of the Rebellion.  I don't see how Lyanna could have been there or at Starfall unless you subscribe to the RLJ timeline.

[LynnS]

58660508.jpg (532×795) (macore.com)

 

[LynnS]

It looks like Jorah Mormont was present at the Tourney of Harrenhal:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

Dany's vision of a blue flower:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

 

'Dany doesn't know what this flower is called, but Jorah does:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

"Perhaps," she said reluctantly. "Yet the things I saw . . ."

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

 

This can only be a blue winter rose that can bloom through snow and cracks in the ice.  He likely saw them at Harrenhal Tourney.

[alienarea]

I would rather read a short story or novel about the Tourney of Harrenhal up to Brandon riding towards KL than another book about food in Essos, Euron or Bran the Tree.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I would rather read a short story or novel about the Tourney of Harrenhal up to Brandon riding towards KL than another book about food in Essos, Euron or Bran the Tree.

LOL!  I just throw stuff at the wall until I get a response.

[asongofheresy]

I don't attempt to place Jon Snow's birthday to a fixed date, I think we should have a solid date for Daenerys' birthday then we can say Jon was born 9 months earlier. And although Fisherman's Daughter story is a thought provoking one, it is still told by a Faceless Man so I have doubts about it. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

I don't attempt to place Jon Snow's birthday to a fixed date, I think we should have a solid date for Daenerys' birthday then we can say Jon was born 9 months earlier. And although Fisherman's Daughter story is a thought provoking one, it is still told by a Faceless Man so I have doubts about it. 

The weird thing about Dany's dob is trying to reconcile Viserys' comments about her being born nine moons after he and the queen fled Dragonstone with Jaime's memory of the last potential time she could have been conceived, when Aerys raped Raehalla while Jon Darry stood guard.  In other words some time before everyone left to fight the Battle of the Trident.

Of course all that begs the question whether or not Dany is really the child of Aerys and Rhaella.  If she's not, then we really have no moorings whatsoever.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course all that begs the question whether or not Dany is really the child of Aerys and Rhaella.  If she's not, then we really have no moorings whatsoever.

 It's also possible that Ned has fudged Jon's birthdate so he is younger than Rob, since he's presenting himself as Jon's father.  To avoid issues over who will be the next lord of Winterfell and conflict between brothers.  Especially since Jon isn't his son.  He wants Jon and Rob to grow up as brothers and not as rivals.

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 It's also possible that Ned has fudged Jon's birthdate so he is younger than Rob, since he's presenting himself as Jon's father.  To avoid issues over who will be the next lord of Winterfell and conflict between brothers.  Especially since Jon isn't his son.  He wants Jon and Rob to grow up as brothers and not as rivals.

I feel fairly comfortable with the idea that Jon is older than Robb.  I think there is a way to guess when Ned is lying and when he’s not.  For example, I think this is an example of Ned lying:

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“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”
“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

So Ned is confronted with a topic he doesn’t want to talk about, but Robert forces him to repeat the lie about Jon’s mother.  And Ned responds with “cool courtesy”.

My guess is that Ned isn’t really a very good liar, and when he becomes angry or indignant the truth comes out even if it’s not the whole truth.  For example:

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“That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

So here Ned is the angriest that Cat has ever seen him.  So angry that it frightened her.  And in his reply he tells the truth.  That Jon is his own blood.  He just doesn’t tell her how he’s actually related to Jon.

So likewise, Robert finally goes and gets Ned truly angry, because he won’t let the issue go.  And I think an angry Ned is probably a truthful Ned:

Quote

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”
Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”
“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”
“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

So Ned gets angry and tells Robert that he dishonored himself and he dishonored Cat in the sight of gods and men.

But if, Jon isn’t Ned’s son, then this perhaps is a bold faced lie.  But I think it unlikely.  So the real question may be, what did Ned mean when he said he dishonored himself and Cat in the sight of gods and men?  Just like what did Ned mean when he said that Jon was his blood?

The phrase in the sight of gods and men is a bit odd.  Whether or not the gods would look in on an adulteress situation, it would be fairly odd for Ned to have performed the transgression in the sight of men.  Even if Ned just had the privacy of a tent he probably would have cheated on Cat outside the sight of men.

But the sight of men and gods is fairly commonly used in oaths, including oaths that have the force of law.  So perhaps the dishonor Ned is really referring to is his false affirmation of Jon as his son, which would have probably occurred under oath, in the sight of men and gods.  This is perhaps how Ned truly believes that he stained his own honor and Cat’s as well.

So if that’s the dishonor that Ned is truly repenting, then the fact that he dishonored himself and Cat by falsely affirming Jon apparently was done while Cat was still pregnant with Robb.

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if that’s the dishonor that Ned is truly repenting, then the fact that he dishonored himself and Cat by falsely affirming Jon apparently was done while Cat was still pregnant with Robb.

I like your logic but that cannot be, because then Jon would be officially older than Robb. 

And if that were the case, the dishonor would have happened  close to Ned's and Cat's wedding, i.e. he could have claimed it happened before and hardly anyone would call it dishonor.

Unrelated thoughts:

Ned is too shy to dance with Ashara at Harrenhal without Brandon asking her in his place. Yet there are rumors in Winterfell that Ashara is Jon's mother, which also cause angry behavior from Ned. Hm.

Another, different thought: you conclude that "the sight of gods and men" relates to an oath. Does it connect to: "Promise me, Ned!" ???

A promise made to a dying person is considered an oath.

So the dishonor could simply be Ned promising a dying Lyanna to pretend to the world that Jon is his son. 

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I like your logic but that cannot be, because then Jon would be officially older than Robb. 

And if that were the case, the dishonor would have happened  close to Ned's and Cat's wedding, i.e. he could have claimed it happened before and hardly anyone would call it dishonor.

Unrelated thoughts:

Ned is too shy to dance with Ashara at Harrenhal without Brandon asking her in his place. Yet there are rumors in Winterfell that Ashara is Jon's mother, which also cause angry behavior from Ned. Hm.

Another, different thought: you conclude that "the sight of gods and men" relates to an oath. Does it connect to: "Promise me, Ned!" ???

A promise made to a dying person is considered an oath.

So the dishonor could simply be Ned promising a dying Lyanna to pretend to the world that Jon is his son. 

What I’m suggesting is that Ned’s affirmation was never done in or shared with Winterfell.  So Winterfell, and Cat, would be unaware of when Ned made an affirmation that Jon was his son.  My thought is the only place Ned would have sworn an oath that Jon was the son of he and Wylla was at Starfall.  Which is why Starfall seems privy to the fact that he and Wylla are supposed to be Jon's parents, but Cat apparently never heard the name Wylla.  Eddard just shows up at Winterfell with Jon and calls him his son.

 The other thing to keep in mind, is that technically they don’t celebrate “birth days” in Westeros.  They celebrate “name days”. So the only date that Ned may have shared with Winterfell is the day that Jon gained his name.