Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[LongRider]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Benjen remains the spare while Eddard is away to the war, and therefore in danger, but the war ends and a new heir is born, so Benjen is demoted and instead of being given a holdfast gets shuffled off to the Wall

We're told there must always be a Stark in WF, what about if there must always be a Stark at the Wall?  Could Benjen be a replacement for a Stark, one whom it took some time for a replacement to become available?  Is Jon Benjen's spare?

[alienarea]

9 hours ago, LongRider said:

We're told there must always be a Stark in WF, what about if there must always be a Stark at the Wall?  Could Benjen be a replacement for a Stark, one whom it took some time for a replacement to become available?  Is Jon Benjen's spare?

It would have prolonged the story even more, and Jon would not have done much yet, but to me it would have made more sense if Jon's story beyond the wall would have been Benjen's. Minus Ygritte.

Would have loved some Benjen - Mance scenes, and also Benjen - Craster ones. 

I guess it would have explained more than GRRM wants us to know.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

We're told there must always be a Stark in WF, what about if there must always be a Stark at the Wall?  Could Benjen be a replacement for a Stark, one whom it took some time for a replacement to become available?  Is Jon Benjen's spare?

We've certainly discussed the Stark on the Wall "rule" before and indeed Maester Aemon more or less explicitly spells it out.

[LynnS]

So is he dead or not?  He made a reappearance in the show... does he make a reappearance in the book? 

[alienarea]

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So is he dead or not?  He made a reappearance in the show... does he make a reappearance in the book? 

In the tv show he was somehow merged with Coldhands. I don't think he's coming back in the books. 

Maybe he's hanging out with Stonesnake and Rickon on Skagos.

(I would prefer Rickon's fate to remain open in the books. I don't see that Jon and Rickon could make it in time to Winterfell for the tv show events to unfold).

[Melifeather]

Othor and Jafer rode out with Benjen, and Othor killed Jafer with his axe - most likely after he rose as a wight. Then Othor's and Jafer's bodies were found in the haunted forest near a weirwood grove not too far from the Wall. Benjen was not with them, but that doesn't mean he isn't dead. If he is still alive, surely he would have found his way back by now? The big mystery is "why"? It does feel his being "missing" was intentional so as to draw out a search party which did occur, and it led to another attack at the Fist where more men of the Watch were killed. You have to ask yourself. Who benefits from a reduction of manpower on the Wall?

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Othor and Jafer rode out with Benjen, and Othor killed Jafer with his axe - most likely after he rose as a wight. Then Othor's and Jafer's bodies were found in the haunted forest near a weirwood grove not too far from the Wall. Benjen was not with them, but that doesn't mean he isn't dead. If he is still alive, surely he would have found his way back by now? The big mystery is "why"? It does feel his being "missing" was intentional so as to draw out a search party which did occur, and it led to another attack at the Fist where more men of the Watch were killed. You have to ask yourself. Who benefits from a reduction of manpower on the Wall?

We have to look at this sensibly. Benjen has been gone without a trace for a long time. The easy answer might be that he's dead, but if so I'd be inclined to look for the discovery of his body. Is he a prisoner? Who would hold him for so long and why, and what difference will a rescue or escape [by a minor character] make so late in the day. So has he changed sides and is this connected with the Starks and the Musgrave Ritual

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So is he dead or not?  He made a reappearance in the show... does he make a reappearance in the book? 

I don't know, I haven't read it yet

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't know, I haven't read it yet

What's your best guess?

[alienarea]

Let's have a look at the options for Benjen:

a) He's dead, Jim.

b) He is a captive of the White Walkers or whoever is behind them.

c) He joined Team Ice

d) He knocked down Othor, killed Jafer with his axe, and left for the Summer Isles.

IMHO he cannot:

e) be Coldhands, their descriptions don't match

f) have joined or having been captured by the wildlings, we would have learned by now

*** crackpot ***
 

According to Old Nan's stories the Night's King was the brother of the Stark in Winterfell. He was brought down by the Stark in Winterfell and the leader of the wildlings, Joramun.

In the books, Mance is still alive. Benjen has been the Stark in Winterfell (did he learn something Ned doesn't know?) and was last seen as the First Ranger. The Starks in Winterfell have been killed (Ned, Rob) or left (Bran).

Note that Val returns clad in white and Mance was married to her sister. Are Benjen and Val the Night's King and his corpse queen? Is Mance's ploy at Winterfell to get Benjen into / out of the crypts (he entered through the tunnels Bran discovered in Bloodraven's cave?)?

Is Benjen the storm rising from Winterfell?

@redriver where art thou? 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Let's have a look at the options for Benjen:

a) He's dead, Jim.

b) He is a captive of the White Walkers or whoever is behind them.

c) He joined Team Ice

d) He knocked down Othor, killed Jafer with his axe, and left for the Summer Isles.

IMHO he cannot:

e) be Coldhands, their descriptions don't match

f) have joined or having been captured by the wildlings, we would have learned by now

*** crackpot ***
 

According to Old Nan's stories the Night's King was the brother of the Stark in Winterfell. He was brought down by the Stark in Winterfell and the leader of the wildlings, Joramun.

In the books, Mance is still alive. Benjen has been the Stark in Winterfell (did he learn something Ned doesn't know?) and was last seen as the First Ranger. The Starks in Winterfell have been killed (Ned, Rob) or left (Bran).

Note that Val returns clad in white and Mance was married to her sister. Are Benjen and Val the Night's King and his corpse queen? Is Mance's ploy at Winterfell to get Benjen into / out of the crypts (he entered through the tunnels Bran discovered in Bloodraven's cave?)?

Is Benjen the storm rising from Winterfell?

@redriver where art thou? 

Add a couple more possibilities:

g) he's a wight, but the cold winds either cannot raise or selectively will not raise him so his body is still laying somewhere...maybe stuck like a wet tongue to a frozen flag pole.  

[LynnS]

Is he the mysterious hooded man?

[alienarea]

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Is he the mysterious hooded man?

I would like that, but understood the hooded man is most likely Theon.

If Benjen were to return, he would take away page time from the already large group of main characters. I guess he will stay wherever he is.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I would like that, but understood the hooded man is most likely Theon.

Really? How? Why?  Either I don't remember or didn't know in the first place.

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Really? How? Why?  Either I don't remember or didn't know in the first place.

I would have wanted the hooded man to be someone else, but there was a good breakdown (apologies, didn't store a link) that when Thron sees the hooded man (does he? typing from memory) it's his own reflection. 

I wasn't ok with this at first, but it makes sense as the start of him "getting back".

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

I would have wanted the hooded man to be someone else, but there was a good breakdown (apologies, didn't store a link) that when Thron sees the hooded man (does he? typing from memory) it's his own reflection. 

I wasn't ok with this at first, but it makes sense as the start of him "getting back".

Ok. Thanks.

I guess I think there is a precedent set in the Prologue of GoT, where two men are wighted and one is MIA.  We know about Gared because he seems to have served some purpose in delivering the direwolf to the Starks, essentially,  It can't be a coincidence that the pups are found in the vicinity of Ned's execution stump.

Likewise, it's not a coincidence that Othor and Jafr are found near the grove where Jon takes his oath.  There was a purpose in getting Othor and Jafr into Castle Black.  There seems to be an invisible hand involved, something that has a purpose.

Same with finding the dragonglass cache and horn at a place where the NW will be attacked by wights..

So It would be interesting if there was a purpose for Benjen as well and his Stark blood has some importance to the invisible hand. 

I'm not sure Benjen had an personal encounter with the White Walkers but he could certainly escape from a wight as I suspect Gared did as well.

But why not go back to Castle Black?  Benjen doesn't strike me as the runnung away, deserter type. Unless he has a new mission.

[Black Crow]

I'm not at all sure about Benjen. Given his absence from the story for so long, Coldhands could make perfect sense, especially considering how long ago young Bran last saw him in the land of the living.

Everything pretty well fits, but my only reservation is the report that Anne Groell penned a query anent this on the manuscript, asking if Coldhands was Benjen, to which GRRM answered no.

I haven't seen the manuscript myself, so I don't know if the report is true, and if it is true then its still possible that GRRM  didn't admit Coldhands and Benjen are one and the same because that would most likely be a spoiler for Jon in the forest later.

Its all speculation, but at the end of the day I really can't see any other credible explanation for Benjen's possible reappearance

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its all speculation, but at the end of the day I really can't see any other credible explanation for Benjen's possible reappearance

Unless Leaf is lying, they killed him long ago.  I'm still not sure how long ago or if he is one of Brynden Rivers' Raven's Teeth.  The problem with that is that BR has told Bran himself that he has not been able to "bring back the dead".  I'm also not sure if it's Bran or BR who becomes the last greenseer.

How long can a magically zombified body stay under a glacier without rotting?  

Why doesn't Bran recognize Benjen if he is zombified?

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

Really? How? Why?  Either I don't remember or didn't know in the first place.

I've shared my theory about Theon being the hooded man before. Theon has a split personality and the hooded man is "Theon" while "Reek" is making observations. There is a passage that supports this idea:

Quote

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grimm. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

Theon lists mummers Roose, Theon, and Reek and notes that everyone has changed places for the repeat performance. Roose is now Theon and Theon is now Reek. Notice how he lists three people when there's only two physical bodies. "Reek" is a part that Roose and Theon take turns playing. Rather than copy the entire post, here's a link: Mystery Play, The Ghost in Winterfell.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

Reek was there when the miller's boys were butchered in place of Bran and Rickon. Notice how "he" differentiates the mummer's roles. There's the Theon role and then "Reek" was there too. So who is "he" when he's remembering? Is he referring to himself in the third person or is he now the hooded man? Think on this. "He" is comparing the current "play" with the three dead men to when the miller boys were killed. In the current play someone played Reek, but he notes that Roose is playing Theon so "he" can't be Theon right now. He's the sneaky hooded man, because the hooded man does things that "Theon" would have done in the past.