Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Why doesn't Bran recognize Benjen if he is zombified?

Well as I said, it is a long time since the child Bran saw his very occasional and briefly visiting Uncle Benjen and wear and tear aside Coldhands spends most of his time with his face muffled up anyway.

Benjen as Coldhands keeps him in the story with a bit of purpose - and explains Coldhands' origin

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Well as I said, it is a long time since the child Bran saw his very occasional and briefly visiting Uncle Benjen and wear and tear aside Coldhands spends most of his time with his face muffled up anyway.

Benjen as Coldhands keeps him in the story with a bit of purpose - and explains Coldhands' origin

What about Hodor though? Wouldn't he recognize him and get agitated or react in some manner as to raise Bran's suspicions?

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not at all sure about Benjen. Given his absence from the story for so long, Coldhands could make perfect sense, especially considering how long ago young Bran last saw him in the land of the living.

 

The problem is that Coldhands was described as having black eyes and Benjen's eyes were blue-grey.  (And the fact that GRRM seemed to specifically indicate that Colhands wasn't Benjen to his editor).

My personal theory is that Coldhands might be former Lord Commander Qorgyle, who if he's a salty Dornishman, would naturally have black eyes like Oberyn.

 

[Frey family reunion]

delete

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well as I said, it is a long time since the child Bran saw his very occasional and briefly visiting Uncle Benjen and wear and tear aside Coldhands spends most of his time with his face muffled up anyway.

Benjen as Coldhands keeps him in the story with a bit of purpose - and explains Coldhands' origin

I don't like Benjen as Coldhands, but it makes sense. We have Benjen missing, Coldhands was a ranger, and that he is a sentient wight could be a hint that the Starks have a closer relation to the White Walkers than they would want to tell. It somehow adds up.

[LongRider]

I don't see Benjen as CH either.  Why did Mormont think he was so important as to require such a large group to look for one Ranger?  I wonder if GRRM will tell us what happened to him.  

[alienarea]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I don't see Benjen as CH either.  Why did Mormont think he was so important as to require such a large group to look for one Ranger?  I wonder if GRRM will tell us what happened to him.  

We assumed that Mormont's raven was muttering about Jon? Maybe it was about Benjen?

Benjen understood that he needed to sacrifice himself because of some old Stark debt.

Mormont takes the watch beyond the wall maybe not looking for Benjen but to keep Mance away from the wall, maybe hoping to defeat him in open field like Stannis did?

Hypothetical: if Mormont had stayed at the wall he would not have done better than Jon. Unless Stannis shows up, he loses. As he doesn't know about Stannis, he takes the watch to fight Mance on open field. He has less men than Stannis, but it's their only chance.

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I don't see Benjen as CH either.  Why did Mormont think he was so important as to require such a large group to look for one Ranger?  I wonder if GRRM will tell us what happened to him.  

I think the ranging was more than a search party for Benjen. It was a discovery mission to see what the wildlings were up to. They knew Mance was assembling the wildlings and gathering them into one force. Prior to that they were broken up into hundreds of tribes spread out over the north.

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think the ranging was more than a search party for Benjen. It was a discovery mission to see what the wildlings were up to. They knew Mance was assembling the wildlings and gathering them into one force. Prior to that they were broken up into hundreds of tribes spread out over the north.

Yeah, looking more closely I see I miss remembered.  So, on the ranging of Benjen, Othor and Jafer, O & J were killed and became wights as their bodies weren't burned.  So, was Benjen not killed? Or if killed the body was burned?  If killed and burned, who did it?  Someone who knows to burn bodies.  Mance?  Tormund?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Yeah, looking more closely I see I miss remembered.  So, on the ranging of Benjen, Othor and Jafer, O & J were killed and became wights as their bodies weren't burned.  So, was Benjen not killed? Or if killed the body was burned?  If killed and burned, who did it?  Someone who knows to burn bodies.  Mance?  Tormund?

Or for some reason he didn’t rise as a wight - if he’s dead, that is. Let’s assume he’s dead. Why didn’t he shuffle off towards the Wall with Othor and Jafer? Do the high cold winds raise every corpse or can it be selective? We’ve speculated before that Bran controls the wights. Maybe he just couldn’t bring himself to use his uncle’s body?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Or for some reason he didn’t rise as a wight - if he’s dead, that is. Let’s assume he’s dead. Why didn’t he shuffle off towards the Wall with Othor and Jafer? Do the high cold winds raise every corpse or can it be selective? We’ve speculated before that Bran controls the wights. Maybe he just couldn’t bring himself to use his uncle’s body?

Just a thought: Ned gets beheaded. Rob gets beheaded (after death). Rickard gets burned. Brandon strangles himself, probably gets burned after? Starks also tend to die when they go South. Maybe the Starks are half-Others, and if not properly killed (or warded with iron swords), their dead bodies rise by default? This could explain Benjen becoming Coldhands. And probably Jon doesn't need to be resurrected at all, he'll just rise with blue eyes (cue Elton John). Because the last he felt was the cold.

[Black Crow]

Broadly, I'd go along with that, although it simply may not be cold enough to raise Starks who die in the south

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think the ranging was more than a search party for Benjen. It was a discovery mission to see what the wildlings were up to. They knew Mance was assembling the wildlings and gathering them into one force. Prior to that they were broken up into hundreds of tribes spread out over the north.

Yes, the great ranging needs to be seen in context. Mormont was becoming increasingly worried about the situation north of the Wall; missing rangers, reports of White Walkers, the restlessness of the Wildlings and rise of Mance Rayder, even his bad dreams. So far as searching for Benjen that was only triggered by the return of Othor and Jafer. Finding him was important, but he was only a part of the picture 

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:56 PM, Melifeather said:

I think the ranging was more than a search party for Benjen. It was a discovery mission to see what the wildlings were up to. They knew Mance was assembling the wildlings and gathering them into one force. Prior to that they were broken up into hundreds of tribes spread out over the north.

Yes, it was basically everything.  Benjen, the Others, Mance.  Mormont was tired of just sitting in Castle Black waiting for the inevitable attack from whoever, or whatever.

Quote

“You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead.” He chewed and swallowed. “I will not sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night’s Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there.”

Ironically, Mormont's attitude was what Illyrio (allegedly) believed would happen when he sent the Dothraki into Westeros.  That they wouldn't be able to defeat the lords inside their castles, but he was counting on Robert not being able to stay behind walls, but instead ride out to meet the enemy.

[alienarea]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ironically, Mormont's attitude was what Illyrio (allegedly) believed would happen when he sent the Dothraki into Westeros.  That they wouldn't be able to defeat the lords inside their castles, but he was counting on Robert not being able to stay behind walls, but instead ride out to meet the enemy.

But, given how Stannis catches the wildlings by surprise, I wonder how Mormont and the Nightwatch had done against the wildlings. If Mormont stays at the wall, the wildlings will win because of their numbers. Surprising them in open field and taking out Mance is his only chance.

[Melifeather]

Is Coldhands Benjen:

Quote

Reddit user _honeybird visited Texas A&M’s Cushing Library to read the original manuscript of A Dance With Dragons, which was full of numerous handwritten notes between George R.R. Martin and his editor, Anne Groell. Scribbled in the margins at Coldhands’ first appearance, Groell asks, “Is this Benjen? I think it’s Benjen … [smiley face].” Martin’s response, circled in red: “NO.” 

 

I think its a reasonable assumption to conclude that the cache of obsidian daggers and arrow points wrapped in a black cloak and then buried near the Fist of the First Men was left by Benjen.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

 

 

If Benjen had collected the cache and then buried it near the Fist, it actually points to the direction that he was traveling: away from Othor and Jafer's bodies and further away from the Wall. If Benjen left that cache, it means he was moving towards the wildling encampment in the Frostfangs, and it may indicate that he felt it was necessary to hide these items from the wildlings in case he's captured.

I realize that absence of information isn't confirmation, but it is strange that Mance doesn't inform Jon that he saw or spoke to Benjen. And Benjen couldn't have been with the wildlings when they passed through the Wall or Jon would have seen him, so what did they do with him? There were groups of wildlings that refused to bend the knee to Stannis and pass through the Wall. It was reported that some had retreated and spread out into the Haunted Forest, back towards the land of the Thenns, and also towards Hardhome. Maybe Benjen is with one of those groups.

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Is Coldhands Benjen:

 

I think its a reasonable assumption to conclude that the cache of obsidian daggers and arrow points wrapped in a black cloak and then buried near the Fist of the First Men was left by Benjen.

 

 

If Benjen had collected the cache and then buried it near the Fist, it actually points to the direction that he was traveling: away from Othor and Jafer's bodies and further away from the Wall. If Benjen left that cache, it means he was moving towards the wildling encampment in the Frostfangs, and it may indicate that he felt it was necessary to hide these items from the wildlings in case he's captured.

I realize that absence of information isn't confirmation, but it is strange that Mance doesn't inform Jon that he saw or spoke to Benjen. And Benjen couldn't have been with the wildlings when they passed through the Wall or Jon would have seen him, so what did they do with him? There were groups of wildlings that refused to bend the knee to Stannis and pass through the Wall. It was reported that some had retreated and spread out into the Haunted Forest, back towards the land of the Thenns, and also towards Hardhome. Maybe Benjen is with one of those groups.

I don't recall when Mance deserted from the wall, but there's a good chance that Mance and Benjen knew each other before Mance deserted.

It's an offhand comment by Mormont, IIRC, but Benjen is said to have been North of the wall for long rangings alone. Where did he stay? With Craster? With Mance?

Following your train of thought: if Benjen moved away from Othor and Jafer towards the Frostfangs, did he kill them?

 

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I don't recall when Mance deserted from the wall, but there's a good chance that Mance and Benjen knew each other before Mance deserted.

It's an offhand comment by Mormont, IIRC, but Benjen is said to have been North of the wall for long rangings alone. Where did he stay? With Craster? With Mance?

Following your train of thought: if Benjen moved away from Othor and Jafer towards the Frostfangs, did he kill them?

Why would Benjen kill his own men? 

The first time Mance saw Jon was when he was yet a man of the Watch and had visited Winterfell with then Lord Commander Qorgyle. Benjen joined the Watch sometime in 283 after Roberts Rebellion. Lord Commander Qorgyle died around 288, so his visit to Winterfell must have occurred when Jon was less than 5 years old:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. "When you were a brother of the Watch . . ."

"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."

"I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."

 

The app A World of Ice and Fire states:

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Five years after Robert's rise to the throne, Lord Commander Qorgyle passes away and Lord Mormont is elected in his place, becoming the nine hundred and ninety-seventh Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

 

I think Mance met Dalla on the ride back to the Wall. He says so himself when speaking to Jon. He even mentions Qhorin Halfhand, so he had to have been a man of the Watch yet:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"I see a woman." He glanced at Dalla.

Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. "My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father's castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women . . . which makes me no different from three-quarters of the Watch. There are men still wearing black who have had ten times as many women as this poor king. You must guess again, Jon Snow."

Jon considered a moment. "The Halfhand said you had a passion for wildling music."

 

 

Mance claimed Benjen didn't know him by sight, which is really not all that surprising if Benjen went to the rangers right after training. He was frequently gone on ranges and then Mance left the Watch roughly 4 years after Benjen's arrival. In the following 11 years Mance was getting pretty good at avoiding Benjen and his ranging parties. He acknowledged Benjen's skill, but he also didn't think Benjen would recognize him:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."

"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Mance claimed Benjen didn't know him by sight, which is really not all that surprising if Benjen went to the rangers right after training. He was frequently gone on ranges and then Mance left the Watch roughly 4 years after Benjen's arrival. In the following 11 years Mance was getting pretty good at avoiding Benjen and his ranging parties. He acknowledged Benjen's skill, but he also didn't think Benjen would recognize him:

I think the rationale is that Mance served at the Shadow Tower while Benjen served at Castle Black, and there probably wasn't a whole lot of interaction between the two groups.

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

think Mance met Dalla on the ride back to the Wall. He says so himself when speaking to Jon. He even mentions Qhorin Halfhand, so he had to have been a man of the Watch yet:

This is an interesting bit here.  Does he meet Dalla on his way back from Winterfell the first time he went there, while he was still a member of the Night's Watch, or the second time after he had defected?  The context of the conversation would imply that he met her after his second trip, after he already defected, thus she was not the cause of his defection.  

Which also means that their relationship was a pretty fast one.  About the same length of Jon's training and becoming a member of the Night's Watch.

It also means that he could have met her north of the Wall.

One other thing of note, is that two members of the Mountain clans (Flint and Norrey) both bring a wet nurse to help nurse Dalla's son (assuming that they weren't in on the deception).  Which would imply that Dalla might have a connection with the Mountain clans.  Perhap Old Flint and the Brandon are the child's grandparents/great grandparents?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the rationale is that Mance served at the Shadow Tower while Benjen served at Castle Black, and there probably wasn't a whole lot of interaction between the two groups.

Why would LC Qorgyle send for Mance to be part of his escort to Winterfell if he was stationed at the Shadow Tower? Wouldn’t it be simpler to use men from Castle Black?

When Mance was attacked by the shadowcat he was with Qhorin and other men of the Watch. What was he doing away from the Wall if the attack didn’t happen when they were returning to the Wall? 

if Dalla was the wood’s witch’s daughter, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they quickly started a relationship. He returned to the Wall for a bit, found his responsibilities restrictive, griped about the rules, and was upset that he had to give up his cloak, because it had red patches that were sewn by the daughter. I think Mance wanted to keep the cloak, because SHE patched it for him. Sounds like Mance was smitten.