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Heresy 241 A Winter Rose


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13 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's just one opinion.  I'm filling in the blanks with what makes sense to me at the moment.  I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.  It's not even a very interesting idea as far as storytelling.  One thing I'm more certain about is that the love story between Lyanna and Rhaegar is on shakey ground.

Agreed--And I reserve the same right (a good thing, since I change my mind all the time!).

As for the "Love Story"--the ground is very shaky. Not gone--can't say that until/unless we get more books. But shaky. And porous.

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

What are the outcomes for Arthur as Jon's father?  What is the shape of that story?

Not sure--but I think a key point is a Day's King. The Sword of the Morning. Throwing down the Night's King--like the old story.

Exactly what that looks like . . . not sure. I put up an OP a while ago that Jon will finally execute the person in the Black Gate. I think the Night's King was "thrown down"--not executed justly as Ned taught his kids to do. Instead, the fallen Night's King got tortured for power (turned into the Black Gate) instead of executed with justice. Vengeance and power cause chaos, darkness, winter. Justice comes with Dawn.

I think it's one of the key conflicts of the novels--the cruelty of the Others, torture killing Raymar for pleasure in the the Game Prologue, vs. Ned's justice, the beginning of the first chapter of Game, riding out to administer justice at Dawn. The "king's justice." I don't think that's the "King of Westeros." I think it's the justice of the Day's King (Sword of the Morning) vs. the power hungry shenanigans of the Night's King.

I think Jon, "an old hand at Justice" (according to Bran in the first Game chapter), will administer justice with Dawn.

I used to think that would end the problem of the seasons. But . . . I'm much less sure now. Given all of Martin's other stories, I'm thinking the damage that caused the crazy seasons might be permanent. And need to be dealt with ever so often in the fallen world that is Westeros.

But all of that is clearly speculation.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Sly Wren If Ser Arthur is Jon's father. why would it be necessary to keep his lineage a secret?   

Ned fears Robert's jealousy. Maybe rightly. Maybe wrongly. Maybe both Ned and Lyanna overreacted--but they clearly fear something.

And Robert doesn't hate Rhaegar and the Targs because they are Targs. He hates them because Rhaegar took the woman Robert loved away from him.

So, Robert would hate any man who "took" his love away. Rhaegar, Arthur, or just Stable Boy #4. And Ned fears that hate and rage.

So--mum's the word about any father of Jon--if Jon's mom is Lyanna.

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3 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I think it's the justice of the Day's King (Sword of the Morning) vs. the power hungry shenanigans of the Night's King.

My bet on the words of House Dayne :D

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"Seven save His Grace. Long may he reign." The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!"

 

 

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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Complete serendipity - another accidental find. I was perusing a link posted by another member on Victorian Christmas cards and came across an illustration of winter roses.  Google and wikipedia filled in the rest.

All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Magical Hellebore Plant - Garden and Happy

Here's a link to Bitterblooms audio book.

George R. R. Martin – Bitterblooms Audiobook – Audiobooks (Free) (staraudiobook.com)  

 

Another recycled theme - the six wanderers (planets) and a constellation with a blue star. In Bitterblooms it's named the Ice Wagon rather than Ice Dragon, but similar enough to catch my attention...

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it was another son that Rhaegar wanted for the third head, but a daughter.  He had Aegon and Rhaenys.  To restore the legacy of the throne of Aegon the Conqueror, he needed another Visenya. 

YUP!!! And, in my humble opinion, he got her in the form of Dany--via Ashara.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

So whatever Rhaegar wanted with Lyanna, it wasn't to produce another son.

:agree:

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Did Dany's black and red egg belong to Rhaegar?  Does it contain something of Rhaegar's soul (the singing dragon) or memory?  Did Dany hatch Rhaegar's egg?

OOOHHH! Very interesting! Could explain how Varys and Illyrio got their hands on it . . .

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

What I imagine here is that Lyanna was travelling with Brandon to Riverrun for his wedding and they stopped at the Inn of the Crossroads.  For some reason Brandon left the party with a few men.  Perhaps he was lured away.  Rhaegar and his stealth crew of six; fell upon Lyanna at the Inn (some ten leagues from Harrenhall) and took her.  There were witnesses.  I don't think Ned was with them.  

Workable. I also think it was possible someone else attacked Lyanna (I agree she was unlikely to be with Brandon at the time of assault) and she ran (my money would be on a lackey of Tywin). Like Arya does. Lyanna then ended up with either Rhaegar and his KG, of the KG found her and took her to Rhaegar (like Ygritte gets Jon to Mance and the Brotherhood gets Arya).

As for witnesses . . . I've wondered for a while if the "Rhaegar took her!" was a planted story.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Rhaegar was either successful and kept her (details to follow in the next book) or she escaped with someone's help and was hidden until we next hear of her from Ned.  The implication is that Ned knew where she was hidden.  Ned never thinks of Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar because he knows she wasn't.  This is Robert's obsession and Ned lets him believe it.  Ned lies by omission.

1. I agree Ned found out she was never raped.

2. Agree on the bolded--but I favor the first: Rhaegar and his KG held onto her. A useful hostage. Like the Brotherhood hold Arya. But she could have hidden.

3. It is heavily implied that Ned knew where to go to find those KG--really think they sent word to lure Ned for a parlay. . .

 

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1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Another recycled theme - the six wanderers (planets) and a constellation with a blue star. In Bitterblooms it's named the Ice Wagon rather than Ice Dragon, but similar enough to catch my attention...

Right!  I curled up on the couch, covered myself up in fuzzy blankets and fell asleep a few times. 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The earlier revelation about  Winter Roses/Hellebore, as I said casts what can only be described as fundamental doubts on a central tenet of the R+L=J theory. But it then goes further than that when we acknowledge the Bitterblooms connection. There probably isn't a direct connection, just as GRRM has insisted that the Ice Dragon story isn't connected to Ice and Fire.

However.

Brilliant though it is in so many ways, the Song of Ice and Fire is also a sprawling mess that has grown almost exponentially from a intended three volumes to what we have today, and in so growing its epic grandeur also serves to obscure the fact that GRRM isn't a mere chronicler of the rise and fall of empires, but a very clever and often innovative writer of science fiction.

What I think we need to be doing therefore is to take Bitterblooms and its story of illusions, and also look at his other works such as Fevre Dreams, not to go dragon-spotting, but to look at the structure and underlying story and then apply that thinking to Ice and Fire and question whether it is simply an epic exercise in high fantasy, a chronicle of the rise and fall of empires and dynasties, and rather look behind the edifice to see what the author of Bitterblooms is really writing.

:agree:

The bolded is one of the reasons I've changed my mind on anyone "fixing" the seasons at the end of the books. I think this world is fallen--like all of his worlds. And the Fall is permanent--Martin doesn't have a Christ figure coming (unlike Robert Jordan, to some extent).

So, if my mad speculation about Jon and Dawn holds, it would just be one win--and not a permanent righting of the seasons, let alone a social or political utopia.

It would just be a doorway to the "dream of spring." Not a "promise" of spring. Because all the things that made the world fall remain, no matter how "Just" Jon is. Or how well the Stark bastard raised by Ned rises up to administer Justice.

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3 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP!!! And, in my humble opinion, he got her in the form of Dany--via Ashara.

Oh yah! I think so too.

3 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

OOOHHH! Very interesting! Could explain how Varys and Illyrio got their hands on it . . .

Well there is story in Fire and Blood and Blood about stolen eggs.  I'll ask @Megorova She'll have those details. 

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Workable. I also think it was possible someone else attacked Lyanna (I agree she was unlikely to be with Brandon at the time of assault) and she ran (my money would be on a lackey of Tywin). Like Arya does. Lyanna then ended up with either Rhaegar and his KG, of the KG found her and took her to Rhaegar (like Ygritte gets Jon to Mance and the Brotherhood gets Arya).

As for witnesses . . . I've wondered for a while if the "Rhaegar took her!" was a planted story.

Sure this is all an open question.  I accept the story of Lyanna's 'abduction' because it is part of Stark family history as told to Bran.  And we have the blurb in the World Book about it.

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

1. I agree Ned found out she was never raped.

2. Agree on the bolded--but I favor the first: Rhaegar and his KG held onto her. A useful hostage. Like the Brotherhood hold Arya. But she could have hidden.

3. It is heavily implied that Ned knew where to go to find those KG--really think they sent word to lure Ned for a parlay. . .

Agree.  100%

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Not sure--but I think a key point is a Day's King. The Sword of the Morning. Throwing down the Night's King--like the old story.

I do like this idea.  It goes hand in hand with winter and summer cycles of the summer king and winter king - the holly and the ivy.

It may well take the Sword of the Morning to push back the darkness and defeat the night king.  We have wondered for ages about the dawn sword, alive with light.   It is in fact, light that the WWs flee from appearing at sunset and fleeing before the sun and light of day.  The wights are inactive during the day.  The Red Lot maintain their vigil against the terrors of the night. 

I think the dawn sword is meant to do just that - it's the sword in the darkness.  I imagine that the dawn sword is white obsidian.  Doesn't occur in nature, but neither do red comets.  It's a magical sword, a legendary weapon, a hero's sword.

What happens if you light this glass candle up at the Wall?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?

This isn't a flame that cold or wind can extinguish.  It's an effective shield. And the Wall itself - a storm of light?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

 

"Watcher on the Walls (plural). There is in fact a Wall of light keeping the heart of darkness and it's servants at bay:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

This is the place where Bran sees a thousand other dreamers impaled by spears of ice.  A prison for the souls of failed Gseers who become white walkers if the Wall of light fails.  Servants of the soul of ice.

My guess is that Jon will meet him in the crypts of Winterfell along with the sword Ice.

Edited by LynnS
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I just watched The Last Duel (in Disney+). It is based on one of the last trials by combat in France and it tells three versions of the events leading to the trial: from Jean de Carrouges (husband of the victim), Jacques Le Gris (accused of rape) and Marguerite de Carrouges (victim).

A few disturbing facts mentioned in the movie:

- the rape was a property crime against the husband (or family), not the woman.

- Marguerite risked burning at the stake if her husband died first (for false accusation of rape)

- there was a belief with roots in ancient Greece that conception required consent and orgasm

Edited by Tucu
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12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I just watched The Last Duel (in Disney+). It is based on one of the last trials by combat in France and it tells three versions of the events leading to the trial: from Jean de Carrouges (husband of the victim), Jacques Le Gris (accused of rape) and Marguerite de Carrouges (victim).

A few disturbing facts mentioned in the movie:

- the rape was a property crime against the husband (or family), not the woman.

- Marguerite risked burning at the stake if her husband died first (for false accusation of rape)

- there was a belief with roots in ancient Greece that conception required consent and orgasm

Wow!  Description of the trial by combat in wikipedia - gruesome.

Jean de Carrouges - Wikipedia

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33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wow!  Description of the trial by combat in wikipedia - gruesome.

Jean de Carrouges - Wikipedia

The dagger used in the trial (and the movie) is called a miséricorde (or misericordia). Designed to give the mercy strike to a wounded knight (or during combat to hit through the gaps in the plate armor). In Italy this dagger evolved into the stilleto that has a needle-like point that matches Arya's Needle. The stilleto became a favourite among medieval assassins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misericorde_(weapon)

 

Edited by Tucu
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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the dawn sword is meant to do just that - it's the sword in the darkness.  I imagine that the dawn sword is white obsidian.  Doesn't occur in nature, but neither do red comets.  It's a magical sword, a legendary weapon, a hero's sword.

What happens if you light this glass candle up at the Wall?

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

This isn't a flame that cold or wind can extinguish.  It's an effective shield. And the Wall itself - a storm of light?

I've been thinking for a while that the Wall and Dawn go together.

Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface. Storm, Jon IV

I've even got a crackpot theory about Serwyn of the Mirror Shield--that it's really about Ice Dragons and the Wall.

Jon sees himself in the wall, like a mirror. Melisandre's flame show with Stannis' sword lights up the Wall. Jon dreams of himself on the Wall, "armored in ice," red blade in his fist--what happens if Dawn really burns? Like dawn? Shining off that Wall? Could that kill the ice dragon? Seems possible.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Watcher on the Walls (plural). There is in fact a Wall of light keeping the heart of darkness and it's servants at bay:

YUP! The oath is about humans with attributes, acting like a force--a sword, a horn, a Wall.

Keeping the oath for justice--not domination or greed or vengeance.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is the place where Bran sees a thousand other dreamers impaled by spears of ice.  A prison for the souls of failed Gseers who become white walkers if the Wall of light fails.  Servants of the soul of ice.

OOHHH! I hadn't thought of it that way! Very cool idea! So, the Others are those who failed to fly? Flying--as in connecting with all the earth. The song of the earth. Those who fail to do that, just fly for power (like Euron) become abominations? Am I getting close to what you're thinking?

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

My guess is that Jon will meet him in the crypts of Winterfell along with the sword Ice.

Could be. I'm still holding to the idea that Jon will "wake the sleepers" in the crypts. The kings deep in the crypts whose tombs will open.

But Bran, down in the dark? I could absolutely buy this.

Question: why with Ice?

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34 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

armored in ice," red blade in his fist--what happens if Dawn really burns? Like dawn?

I think Melisandre's red sword of heros is a completely different magical sword.  I think AA is forging a valyrian steel sword and  Nissa Nissa is a red priestess, like Melisandre, with a heart burning with 'holy fire'.  Mel is certainly setting herself up to be a Nissa Nissa figure to Stannis as AA.  Only Jon is the one with a valyrian steel sword - so far as we know.  So I've done the math...:D  I think there is going to be more than one hero and more than one sword in the darkness.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . 

|Do you think Sam will catch on to the idea that he should takes the Citadel's glass candles back to the Wall with him?  Four more swords in the darkness.  :D

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"Ghost found it. The blade was wrapped in a ranger's cloak and buried beneath the Fist of the First Men. There were other blades as well . . . spearheads, arrowheads, all dragonglass."

I'm betting that fire can be drawn from obsidian no matter the shape. An expedition has been sent to Dragonstone to collect more and should be returning to Eastwatch soon.

Edited by LynnS
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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Here is a link to an excellent OP relevant to our conversation:

I also recommend Phylum of Alexandria's website for another collection of excellent historical essays.

Phylogenic Records – Phono-revelation through phylo-genesis (wordpress.com)

Yes, absolutely splendid. Thanks for linking it :commie:

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12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Could be. I'm still holding to the idea that Jon will "wake the sleepers" in the crypts. The kings deep in the crypts whose tombs will open.

But Bran, down in the dark? I could absolutely buy this.

Question: why with Ice?

Going back to what Bran sees in the heart of darkness beyond the curtain of light.  He sees the souls of Gseers enslaved to the heart of darkness; hence the blue eyes of the wights and White Walkers.  They are chained to the same source. They are psy-linked to the soul of ice

As a Gseer. Bran can see into the heart and soul and he knows truth about the heart of darkness (the third eye filled with terrible knowledge) and what it is and where it is located.  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." He stretched, smiling his lazy smile. "That's worth a round, I'd say."

It is a darker thing, one of the old powers (gseer) and it is sealed and locked away in the place where it was last defeated.  In the frozen hell reserved for Starks; deep in the crypts of Winterfell.

At some point Jon will be drawn to this old power and his soul will encounter the heart of darkness.  Possibly in his dreams of the crypt.  I think Jon has been chosen to bear a heavy curse and his soul will be transformed into the soul of ice and he will become the heart of darkness.  Ultimately,  I think it will be Dany, the breaker of chains, who will transform and free Jon's soul along with all the souls chained to him.  She will have to light the last fire to love.  

 

Edited by LynnS
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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I am still wondering whether Benjen has a different role in the books. He was the Stark in Winterfell, maybe this isn't only a title but also a duty? One that cannot be passed on easily?

Did he have to take the black to free the Stark in Winterfell for Ned?

Good question. I don't know why he had to clear out or where he is now.  I amuse myself with the idea that he's dead and second-lifed as Mormont's raven.  He did say he would speak to Jon about stuff when he returned. :D

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I am still wondering whether Benjen has a different role in the books. He was the Stark in Winterfell, maybe this isn't only a title but also a duty? One that cannot be passed on easily?

Did he have to take the black to free the Stark in Winterfell for Ned?

I'd be more inclined to read it as Lord Eddard succeeding his father in the role, but young Benjen deputising in his absence [and of course standing by in case Eddard in turn popped his clogs].

However,  I agree that its not just a title but a duty, and that Benjen probably had to take the Black because he knew too much

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