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Heresy 241 A Winter Rose


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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Well now you have a story to tell about your winter rose. :D

Although I can't say I've never touched it. I'm a landscaper at a local university, and I once took one of the flowers to ask a coworker about. I showed a couple other trusted lanscapers I work with a picture I took of it. None of them knew what it was. (I recently learned I can take a picture with my Google app and it tells you what the picture is. Don't say it, lol.) I never thought to use this new knowledge to ask Google what the plant was.

I found it within the latest Heresy via this forum. And I joined back in 2015(? I think). Pretty cool!

I can tell you one thing about the hellebore: When the ground is frozen and it even hurts to breathe, when the sky is murky and when all the trees are naked and their leaves are gone and scattered in the cold winds of winter, just when you start to forget what wamth is and wonder if you will ever feel it again -even the wild animals beg for mercy...

There is a plant in my yard that never dies! And it produces the most beautiful flower. Almost like a dream. And so I remember - Spring is Coming. Lol

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Something sweet can become something bitter and something bitter can become sweet.  I think we will see that in Jaime's arc.

All these polarities exist on an axis or spectrum where the solution will be for ice to burn, bitter to become sweet.   

Like sweet Tyene, sweet Cersei, sweet Cat and maybe sweet Elia and sweet Dany

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Tyene is so sweet and gentle that no man will suspect her<...>

"Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene, in her sweet septa's voice. "He would like some company, I'm certain."

 

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7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Like sweet Tyene, sweet Cersei, sweet Cat and maybe sweet Elia and sweet Dany

 

And now Sansa, I dare say... and the relationship between Jaime and Brienne is turning from bitter to sweet.

Edited by LynnS
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https://www.scarsdalevets.com/article/hellebore-poisonous-plant-of-the-month

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There are several species of the Helleborus genus; Christmas rose, stinking hellebore and purple, all of which are poisonous to mammals. Part of the buttercup family, they flower shortly after Christmas, and the flowers are creamy white tinged with green.

Hellebores contain three active ingredients: glycosides, which can cause bradycardia (slowing of the heart); saponin, acting on the nervous system causing narcosis; and helleborine, a purgative found in the roots of the plant.

Signs Of Hellebore Poisoning

The clinical signs seen in cattle include:

  • Inappetence
  • Vomiting
  • Slow heart rate
  • Difficulty breathing
  • Coma
  • Death

Milk from affected animals will cause vomiting and diarrhoea in people.

These plants can grow in pastures, grassland and gardens. Historically the roots were used to make people vomit to treat poisonings, although this is now known to be harmful!

Edited by Travis
Sorry for formatting issues. Things are a little different since I last posted before today.
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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And now Sansa, I dare say...

That reminds me of Arya's link to bitter and sweet. She is blinded (and kept blind) by some bitter tasting milk:

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When the milk came, Arya drank it down. It smelled a little burnt and had a bitter aftertaste. "Go to bed now, child," the kindly man said. "On the morrow you must serve."<...>

When she woke the next morning, she was blind.

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Each night at supper the waif brought her a cup of milk and told her to drink it down. The drink had a queer, bitter taste that the blind girl soon learned to loathe. Even the faint smell that warned her what it was before it touched her tongue soon made her feel like retching, but she drained the cup all the same.

"How long must I be blind?" she would ask.

"Until darkness is as sweet to you as light," the waif would say, "or until you ask us for your eyes. Ask and you shall see."

The FM gave Arya her sight back after she skin-changed the cat. Bitter milk and darkness to wake-up her powers.

Before that she was trained to use sweetsleep as poison:

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"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness."

 

Edited by Tucu
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So what does this mean for RLJ.  That a sweet lie is being told?   Did Rhaegar fall upon Lyanna and take her?  Yes, I think he did.  Did he keep her in some hide-out where she succumbed to hostage syndrome and had his child.  Was it love at first sight?  This is ringing less true to me than before.  We don't know if he managed to keep hold of her; if she escaped and was hidden somewhere by Ned and/or Howland. 

As far as Lyanna's personality, Ned thinks of her as being very sweet.  But she has an iron will and wouldn't put up with much nonsense from Robert or her brothers and she has a temper when she encounters bullies.  That doesn't make her a risk taker.

Why is Ned so bitter and guilty?  He says her bit of impulsive wolf-blood brought her to her bed of blood. Perhaps he feels he has had a bloody hand in her demise, that he is partly responsible.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

Cersei Lannister regarded him suspiciously. "You, Stark? Is this some trick? Why would you do such a thing?"

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

 

I can't help thinking that the "Lady" invokes memories of Lyanna and that she deserved better than a butcher - the only help that was available to her when she gave birth. 

Edited by LynnS
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24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

That reminds me of Arya's link to bitter and sweet. She is blinded (and kept blind) by some bitter tasting milk:

This is showing up everywhere now that we're looking for it.  I think when Tyrion talks about preferring sweet lies to bitter truths, he's talking not only about Tysha but Shae as well. As Mel says; it's everywhere in the world.  

Edited by LynnS
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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can't help thinking that the "Lady" invokes memories of Lyanna and that she deserved better than a butcher - the only help that was available to her when she gave birth. 

I wonder if this links to all the Butcher King references in the Essos chapters...for example

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I have given Astapor a butcher king. Dany felt ill

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Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. "Do you take me for the Butcher King?"

"Better the butcher than the meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?"

 

Edited by Tucu
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35 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I wonder if this links to all the Butcher King references in the Essos chapters...for example

That puts Robert in that camp considering what happened to Elia and her children.  So perhaps not a coincidence that Robert could have prevented Lady's death but didn't.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

 

I always wondered about the subtext here in Robert's death scene:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"Damn you, Robert," Ned said when they were alone. His leg was throbbing so badly he was almost blind with pain. Or perhaps it was grief that fogged his eyes. He lowered himself to the bed, beside his friend. "Why do you always have to be so headstrong?"

"Ah, fuck you, Ned," the king said hoarsely. "I killed the bastard, didn't I?" A lock of matted black hair fell across his eyes as he glared up at Ned. "Ought to do the same for you. Can't leave a man to hunt in peace. Ser Robar found me. Gregor's head. Ugly thought. Never told the Hound. Let Cersei surprise him." His laugh turned into a grunt as a spasm of pain hit him. "Gods have mercy," he muttered, swallowing his agony. "The girl. Daenerys. Only a child, you were right … that's why, the girl … the gods sent the boar … sent to punish me …" The king coughed, bringing up blood. "Wrong, it was wrong, I … only a girl … Varys, Littlefinger, even my brother … worthless … no one to tell me no but you, Ned … only you …" He lifted his hand, the gesture pained and feeble. "Paper and ink. There, on the table. Write what I tell you."

 

 

So is Robert thinking about Dany here in his drug induced state or Lyanna?

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Ned gave him his answer. "You will, my lord."

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall … guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

 

Who is Ned guarding as if he was his own, but Jon.  

Edited by LynnS
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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That puts Robert in that camp considering what happened to Elia and her children.  So perhaps not a coincidence that Robert could have prevented Lady's death but didn't.

Right, the butcher king killed by the pig :-)

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“Stinks,” Robert said. “The stink of death, don’t think I can’t smell it. Bastard did me good, eh? But I…I paid him back in kind, Ned.” The king’s smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red. “Drove a knife right through his eye. Ask them if I didn’t. Ask them.”

“Truly,” Lord Renly murmured. “We brought the carcass back with us, at my brother’s command.”

For the feast,” Robert whispered. “Now leave us. The lot of you. I need to speak with Ned.” <...>

Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed.

The king closed his eyes and seemed to relax. “Killed by a pig,” he muttered. “Ought to laugh, but it hurts too much.”

 

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, this thread has caused me to travel down another rabbit hole.  It's probably no coincidence that GRRM has named a bridge of the Rose Road, Bitterbridge.  Perhaps an intentional reference to his previous use of the winter flower Bitterblooms, which may have morphed into the Winter Rose for this series.

Of course this also had me take a closer look at the river that Bitterbridge crosses, the Mander.  The most probable inspiration behind this river is a river in Turkey named by the ancient Greeks:  the Meander or Maeander.  Which is the origin of the word, meander.  And if you look at the meanings the Greeks gave to this river and the symbolism that resulted from it, the rabbit hole goes pretty deep and umm, windy.  

https://symbolsage.com/meander-or-greek-key-symbol/

https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/meander-greek-key-symbol

Would the Manderlys crossing the Mander be the equivalent of besting the gods? Sounds the opposite in their case. They claim they were defeated and that the wolves took them in. The rivalry that pre-empted their migration occurred over a line of succession. Both House Manderly and House Peake married into the Lord of the Reach - daughters of House Gardener. When the lord died without a son, the two houses were determined to wrest control. The feud was resolved by a Tyrell when a distant Gardener cousin was found. Eventually the Manderley were driven out. 

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Read this yesterday: https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2021/12/18/long-long-ago/

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A few years back,  Hidetaka Miyazaki and his incredible team of game designers, the creators of the DARK SOULS videogame series, reached out from Japan to ask me to help them create the backstory and history for a new game they were working on.  Now, video games are not really my thing — oh, I played a few back in the dawn of time, mainly strategy games like RAILROAD TYCOON, ROMANCE OF THE THREE KINGDOMS, and MASTER OF ORION — but this offer was too exciting to refuse.  Miyazaki and his team from FromSoftware were doing  groundbreaking stuff with gorgeous art, and what they wanted from me was just a bit of worldbuilding: a deep, dark, resonant world to serve as a foundation for the game they planned to create.   And as it happens, I love creating worlds and writing imaginary history

 

Edited by Tucu
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I'm happy that GRRM is happy immersed in his creative worlds, but gosh darn it! Can't he just finish this one before getting distracted by a new one? At least it appears his collaboration is over already.

The imagery is beautiful in the game. Did you see the one demigod that unfolded like a giant flower? I also noted a giant tree and a giant spider.

 

Edited by Melifeather
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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I'm happy that GRRM is happy immersed in his creative worlds, but gosh darn it! Can't he just finish this one before getting distracted by a new one? At least it appears his collaboration is over already.

LOL!  I don't it took much effort on his part since he seems to be recycling some themes.

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I've restarted listening to that audiobook, Bitterblooms, today. There are allot of repeated words like, "That match. That stupid, stupid match", "the flap, flap, flap",  "She was choking on blood. Blood and blood and blood", and "It was blue. All blue. Hazy shifting blue. A pale blue. (snip) A soft blue like the little flower..."

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2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I've restarted listening to that audiobook, Bitterblooms, today. There are allot of repeated words like, "That match. That stupid, stupid match", "the flap, flap, flap",  "She was choking on blood. Blood and blood and blood", and "It was blue. All blue. Hazy shifting blue. A pale blue. (snip) A soft blue like the little flower..."

Does it remind you of the House of Undying and the room with the blue heart?

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