What if Viserys and Daenerys were captured at Dragonstone?

[Lord Lannister]

This is a question that's always intrigued me. Viserys stated that the garrison at Dragonstone was plotting to sell him and Daenerys to the Usurper and Robert was always critical of Stannis for not taking Dragonstone quickly enough. Assuming Viserys wasn't just fabricating the "plot" against him to make him seem more important and Robert wasn't being unreasonable in his criticism of Stannis(both possibly big ifs), let's assume the Targaryen children weren't able to flee quickly enough and were captured when Dragonstone fell to the Baratheon forces. This is an interesting scenario that could spawn all sorts of questions.

Would Robert have flat out ordered Viserys and Daenerys executed? Robert always talked a big game about the Targaryens and certainly didn't seem to mind too much about Rhaegar's children being slain, but turning a blind eye to Tywin's actions and ordering the execution are two different things. Though as both irl history and the regular novels show, keeping rival claimants alive never ends well.

How would this affect his relationship with Ned and his other lords if he did? Robert and Ned's friendship would almost certainly die if Robert ordered their execution, even with the shared pain of Lyanna's death.  How far would Ned take it though? Would he still be a dutiful vassal? Would he minimize his service as much as he can? Does he still help suppress the Ironborn rebellion? 

How would this affect Illyrio and Varys' plots? Young Griff always seemed to be the original plan for a Targaryen restoration, though it seemed to get put on the backburner once two Targaryens with unquestioned heritage came under their influnece. Does (f)Aegon get the dragon eggs? Is his dragonblood enough to have a similar miracle? Do they find a spouse for him that ensures he has the power to take the Seven Kingdoms?

Does Ned take any greater steps to protect Jon? If Jon is arguably the last Targaryen, would Ned take greater steps to keep Jon's secret safe even at the risk of isolating him from his family? Would Ned feel compelled to protect the Targaryen legacy and ensure Jon knows his heritage if he's the last one?

Just a lot of random what ifs, but interesting food for thought I think.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Would Robert have flat out ordered Viserys and Daenerys executed?

No. as Tywin says , Robert saw himself as the hero.. he wouldn't just order their execution right away . especially not Dany - a newborn girl. he might have even kept Dany to be betrothed to his heir (by Jon Arryn's council) or sent her to silent sisters/faith to be raised there. an already crowned Viserys III is another matter. he might have very well tried his best to justify murdering him and succeed.. but he might have also kept little Viserys as a prisoner till he would die of "some fever" under captivity . 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

How would this affect his relationship with Ned and his other lords if he did? Robert and Ned's friendship would almost certainly die if Robert ordered their execution, even with the shared pain of Lyanna's death.  How far would Ned take it though? Would he still be a dutiful vassal? Would he minimize his service as much as he can? Does he still help suppress the Ironborn rebellion? 

he'd be dutiful (Ned just wanted to go home after all the trauma he experienced during the war) but they wouldn't stay friends. and yes he would help suppress the IronBorn  , Robert was his king anyway.

as for other lords, some people like Rowan wouldn't like killing children but they would all accept Robert's rule since there's no other way. even in Targaryen line after Viserys and Dany there's Robert and his brothers.. who's next? Doran? most of Westeros don't like the Dornish .

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

How would this affect Illyrio and Varys' plots? Young Griff always seemed to be the original plan for a Targaryen restoration, though it seemed to get put on the backburner once two Targaryens with unquestioned heritage came under their influnece. Does (f)Aegon get the dragon eggs? Is his dragonblood enough to have a similar miracle? Do they find a spouse for him that ensures he has the power to take the Seven Kingdoms?

this one's a truly interesting question. problem is we don't know why YG seems to have been their main plan.

is he their creation from the scratch? (pisswater prince or a Blackfyre) ? .. this way there wouldn't be any reason to waste the eggs on a pisswater prince.. and a Blackfyre? It depends.. did they hope Dany to hatch the eggs? ..I doubt that ..

is he the real baby Aegon ? an opportunity they got their hands on ? I don't know about the eggs but a quick wedding would be on the line for YG .. maybe a Martell, a Tyrell or even someone from Essos whose father wants to get involved in Westerosi politics.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Does Ned take any greater steps to protect Jon?

no. can't do much else.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

 Would Ned feel compelled to protect the Targaryen legacy and ensure Jon knows his heritage if he's the last one?

no. Ned's a peaceful guy who just wants a happy family life.

 

[SeanF]

There would be no order for their execution.  They would just be quietly disposed of.  As a baby, Dany could simply be suffocated, or dumped in the sea.  Viserys would catch a “chill.”  Everyone would know what had happened, but no one would talk about it openly.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Stannis would do the evil act and would have murdered them both.

I have no sympathy for Stannis. I would be perfectly accepting if Stannis gets fed to the dragons, with each of the three getting an equal share.  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Robert would have been pissed that Stannis or whoever didn't get the job done themselves and stuck him with responsibility for the decision. My timetable is a little shaky, but I suspect that if they were captured alive during his rift with Ned then he may have ordered the dirty deed done.  Would Jon Arryn have been able to come up with a 3rd option that would have been palatable to  the new throne? Is there any way that Danny might have ended up married to Robert?  Would a great council have been called to diffuse responsibility?  I think that one way or another the kids would have been removed but I think that Robert would have been very eager to keep his name from being attached to the killings.

[Canon Claude]

Why not just send Viserys to the Wall in chains? Not like he’s got any friends in the North after what his father did. Even if he tries to escape, how far could he go before he gets recaptured or dies of exposure?

[Lord Lannister]

14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

No. as Tywin says , Robert saw himself as the hero.. he wouldn't just order their execution right away . especially not Dany - a newborn girl. he might have even kept Dany to be betrothed to his heir (by Jon Arryn's council) or sent her to silent sisters/faith to be raised there. an already crowned Viserys III is another matter. he might have very well tried his best to justify murdering him and succeed.. but he might have also kept little Viserys as a prisoner till he would die of "some fever" under captivity . 

 

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

There would be no order for their execution.  They would just be quietly disposed of.  As a baby, Dany could simply be suffocated, or dumped in the sea.  Viserys would catch a “chill.”  Everyone would know what had happened, but no one would talk about it openly.

There definitely seems to be a lack of faith in Robert. Perhaps not undeserved. He had no problem ordering the execution of a pregnant Dany after all! 

 

14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

he'd be dutiful (Ned just wanted to go home after all the trauma he experienced during the war) but they wouldn't stay friends. and yes he would help suppress the IronBorn  , Robert was his king anyway.

as for other lords, some people like Rowan wouldn't like killing children but they would all accept Robert's rule since there's no other way. even in Targaryen line after Viserys and Dany there's Robert and his brothers.. who's next? Doran? most of Westeros don't like the Dornish .

I half considered that Ned would just take the minimalist approach. Send some men to satisfy his duty, but not go himself. I suppose sending men to fight and die while he remains behind wouldn't be his style though. 

Do you think Robert and Ned could rekindle their friendship if they reunited in this scenario?

There definitely wouldn't be a rival Targaryen claimant to rally behind short of (f)Aegon when he appears. But Robert literally opened the door to usurping the throne. So who knows if that'd even matter? It might be interesting to consider if his unpopularity timed with the Ironborn rebellion in this scenario would result in a wider uprising. 

14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

this one's a truly interesting question. problem is we don't know why YG seems to have been their main plan.

is he their creation from the scratch? (pisswater prince or a Blackfyre) ? .. this way there wouldn't be any reason to waste the eggs on a pisswater prince.. and a Blackfyre? It depends.. did they hope Dany to hatch the eggs? ..I doubt that ..

is he the real baby Aegon ? an opportunity they got their hands on ? I don't know about the eggs but a quick wedding would be on the line for YG .. maybe a Martell, a Tyrell or even someone from Essos whose father wants to get involved in Westerosi politics.

A lot depends on who (f)Aegon really is. I always assumed they knew his lineage would be questioned and that's why they put him on the back burner once Viserys and Dany fell into their grasp, and only went with him again once Viserys died and Dany stalled in Slaver's Bay.

I always assumed the eggs were given for symbolic value. So it's possible (f)Aegon would get them in this scenario. Look here's a Targaryen, he has eggs and everything.

14 hours ago, EggBlue said:

no. Ned's a peaceful guy who just wants a happy family life.

I suppose what I was getting at with that question is would Ned possibly tell Jon the truth in this scenario and let Jon make his own choices there. 

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stannis would do the evil act and would have murdered them both.

I have no sympathy for Stannis. I would be perfectly accepting if Stannis gets fed to the dragons, with each of the three getting an equal share.  

I do appreciate the irony of citing moral reasons as justification as to why someone deserves to be torn to pieces and eaten.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Robert would have been pissed that Stannis or whoever didn't get the job done themselves and stuck him with responsibility for the decision. My timetable is a little shaky, but I suspect that if they were captured alive during his rift with Ned then he may have ordered the dirty deed done.  Would Jon Arryn have been able to come up with a 3rd option that would have been palatable to  the new throne? Is there any way that Danny might have ended up married to Robert?  Would a great council have been called to diffuse responsibility?  I think that one way or another the kids would have been removed but I think that Robert would have been very eager to keep his name from being attached to the killings.

Stannis would seem to be in a lose/lose situation here. Robert gives him a vague command like get the job done. If Stannis kills them, then he puts the blame for the murders on his brother. If Stannis doesn't, Robert blames his brother for not doing it. Either way Stannis always has reasons to grind his teeth over his brother.

[Lord Lannister]

11 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Why not just send Viserys to the Wall in chains? Not like he’s got any friends in the North after what his father did. Even if he tries to escape, how far could he go before he gets recaptured or dies of exposure?

Viserys was what? Six? Eight? When all this happened. That seems a bit much, even for the Night's Watch.

Though Aemon's influence on the young Viserys might be a very interesting scenario. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Stannis would seem to be in a lose/lose situation here. Robert gives him a vague command like get the job done. If Stannis kills them, then he puts the blame for the murders on his brother. If Stannis doesn't, Robert blames his brother for not doing it. Either way Stannis always has reasons to grind his teeth over his brother.

I tend to agree, that's why I wonder if there wouldn't have ben a council or something just because Stannis wouldn't undertake such distasteful work and Robert would be left with V & D in his custody and a job to do that he wouldn't want credit for doing.

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Viserys was what? Six? Eight? When all this happened. That seems a bit much, even for the Night's Watch.

Danny Flint wants a word with you about that.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

35 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Danny Flint wants a word with you about that.

Totally. I don't normally go in for the 'what if's' but the idea of a Viserys raised at the wall is intriguing.  He would have had friends and family there. It may have been a kinder upbringing that the one he had. 

Hewould have had enemies too though and we've seen the iron throne reach up to the Wall before.

[Canon Claude]

6 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Totally. I don't normally go in for the 'what if's' but the idea of a Viserys raised at the wall is intriguing.  He would have had friends and family there. It may have been a kinder upbringing that the one he had. 

Hewould have had enemies too though and we've seen the iron throne reach up to the Wall before.

Imagine a scenario where Jon Snow has to compete with Viserys Targaryen over which of them will become the youngest commander of the Nights Watch.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Do you think Robert and Ned could rekindle their friendship if they reunited in this scenario?

I think their friendship wouldn't die.. after all , Targlings weren't specifically important to Ned and they were a threat to Robert's throne and the "new king's peace".  but not even with a reconciliation in a new war , it wouldn't become the pure brotherly bond it once had been.

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I suppose what I was getting at with that question is would Ned possibly tell Jon the truth in this scenario and let Jon make his own choices there. 

in that case, I don't think so. it seemed in the current story Ned wanted to eventually talk to Jon about whatever secret there is ( " if he could see the boy again..if he could talk.." Ned's thoughts at the dungeons)  . but if he'd seen Robert as a ruthless man and an even better cause for Jon to avenge his unjustly murdered family , he might have tried to keep the secret from Jon to protect him from his vengeance if nothing else. 

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stannis would do the evil act and would have murdered them both.

I have no sympathy for Stannis. I would be perfectly accepting if Stannis gets fed to the dragons, with each of the three getting an equal share.  

you are mistaking Stannis with someone else. Stannis is cold , calculative, sexist and a guy of "greater good" (this one's still disputable) BUT he is a JUST man . he wouldn't just kill children for the sake of killing them. the one time he came close to that he thought he was doing it for a whole realm!

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Viserys was what? Six? Eight? When all this happened. That seems a bit much, even for the Night's Watch.

Though Aemon's influence on the young Viserys might be a very interesting scenario. 

wouldn't matter. that actually seems a great idea. if Ned were around he would have suggested that to Robert . it wouldn't be the best upbringing but little Viserys would have his uncle maester and he wouldn't end up the paranoid monster he was. I can easily imagine him as a decent but melancholy youth up in freezing North .

[The Young Maester]

I dont know exactly what would happen to the children. But I think its agreed that the best course of action is send viserys to the wall, and marry dany to roberts firstborn.

I saw someone point out that Robert wouldve expected stannis to kill the children himself, and this is certainly a possibility with the whole hero ark Robert was obsessed with.

But my guess is that if Ned were present he would recommend nights watch/silent sister/imprisonment. If not than its up to whatever Jon Arryn whispers in roberts ear.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

19 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Imagine a scenario where Jon Snow has to compete with Viserys Targaryen over which of them will become the youngest commander of the Nights Watch.

Would Jon have a chance? Viserys would have been 13 years on the Wall. If it didn't break him and take him out of the picture think of the allies he would have had in Great Uncle Aemon and all the loyalists who were sent to the Wall by Robert. I suspect that Viserys would have been a pretty big deal by the time Jon came along and would have been Mormont's 'heir apparent' (for lack of a better term) for some time. He would likely have missed out on the opportunity for youngest LC(I don't recall the Mormont timeline) but unless he turned into the exact same turd that he became in the Free Cities he could have been LC with some very loyal watchmen.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

27 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

the one time he came close to that he thought he was doing it for a whole realm!

And he'd had Mel in his ear for a year or so and he still brought in Davos to save himself from his own plans.  No way Stannis would have willfully murdered children during the Rebellion.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

There definitely seems to be a lack of faith in Robert. Perhaps not undeserved. He had no problem ordering the execution of a pregnant Dany after all! 

Dany was plotting to take the Throne, he was fine letting Dany live for 13 years prior that.

It's actually in character for Robert not to kill than to kill them.

Anyway, it's not like killing them is the only way of getting rid of them politically, so the insistence on their deaths is odd. Dany can't be sent to the Silent sisters if Robert finds the idea of marrying to his first born or to Renly too distateful and Viserys can be exiled, castrated or sent to a penal colony.

Not that the aforementioned outcomes are too happy for them but killing children seems akin to brutality for its own sake. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Does Ned take any greater steps to protect Jon?

I don't know what else he could've done.

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

How would this affect his relationship with Ned and his other lords if he did?

Ned would have unfriended Robert.

The other lords would have cared a little until the indignation died down.

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Would he still be a dutiful vassal?

Yeah. He was a dutiful vassal to Robert in AGOT and Robert was a complete trainwreck there, to say the least.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Is his dragonblood enough to have a similar miracle?

No.

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Do they find a spouse for him that ensures he has the power to take the Seven Kingdoms?

I don't think such woman exists.

Aegon campaigns entirely depends on the chaos the twincest ensues and whether there are enough veteran commanders capable of putting their house in order to neutralize him. Ie, so long he's fighting Tywin, Kevan, Ned, Robert or Renly his cause is as good as dead. He'd have a chance with Stannis tho.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Would Ned feel compelled to protect the Targaryen legacy and ensure Jon knows his heritage if he's the last one?

No, lol.

Ned doesn't give a shit about the Targaryen legacy. Ned is a kingmaker, the only reason he cares for not killing Targlings is because they are children and even then, he's more than willing to repel them in combat.

Telling Jon the truth is just opening a can of worms.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

When all this happened. That seems a bit much, even for the Night's Watch

Younger children have done it before and once it's done, it's done. 

[EggBlue]

15 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Would Jon have a chance? Viserys would have been 13 years on the Wall. If it didn't break him and take him out of the picture think of the allies he would have had in Great Uncle Aemon and all the loyalists who were sent to the Wall by Robert. I suspect that Viserys would have been a pretty big deal by the time Jon came along and would have been Mormont's 'heir apparent' (for lack of a better term) for some time. He would likely have missed out on the opportunity for youngest LC(I don't recall the Mormont timeline) but unless he turned into the exact same turd that he became in the Free Cities he could have been LC with some very loyal watchmen.

I don't think Viserys would have been the way he was in the free cities.he sure would have been somewhat depressed but  Maestor Aemon could have taught him that there are more important things in life than a dynasty, that what he could do in NW would be far more valuable that whatever a king could do , that he could rebuilds his life and his identity anew and that his beloved brother's endeavors were aligned with the purpose of NW. furthermore, there's the possibility of he and Jon being in the same league with Aemon and Mormont .. unless of course Aemon had no influence on Viserys and he turned into a mini-Alister thorne!

[James West]

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stannis would do the evil act and would have murdered them both.

I have no sympathy for Stannis. I would be perfectly accepting if Stannis gets fed to the dragons, with each of the three getting an equal share.  

What if Viserys and Daenerys were captured at Dragonstone?

It is obvious.  The Usurper's Dogs would have killed them.  

Dany will punish Stannis for his lies.  Stannis and his priestess is passing him off as Azor Ahai.  Dany is Azor Ahai and can execute Stannis for many reasons.  

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

And he'd had Mel in his ear for a year or so and he still brought in Davos to save himself from his own plans.  No way Stannis would have willfully murdered children during the Rebellion.

Stannis is not the honorable man that you think he is.  He's no better than Roose Bolton.  I think a lot of the Stark supporters like Stannis because he is a friend to the Starks.  Look closer and Stannis is a monster.  

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think Viserys would have been the way he was in the free cities.he sure would have been somewhat depressed but  Maestor Aemon could have taught him that there are more important things in life than a dynasty, that what he could do in NW would be far more valuable that whatever a king could do , that he could rebuilds his life and his identity anew and that his beloved brother's endeavors were aligned with the purpose of NW. furthermore, there's the possibility of he and Jon being in the same league with Aemon and Mormont .. unless of course Aemon had no influence on Viserys and he turned into a mini-Alister thorne!

Viserys grew up during those oh so dramatic formative years with no strong role model at all. Just a memory of everything that was taken from them and the agony of having to endure and survive. That doesn't excuse him at all from how he treats Dany later, but perhaps helps explain it and that he could've been different. A strong role model like Aemon if he was exiled or Barristan if he remained loyal could've made a world of difference for him and taught him things like how life isn't fair and how to overcome adversity.