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Covid 44: The Sickening


Mlle. Zabzie
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22 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Who isn’t? More and more experts are saying that it’s not a viable and sustainable (financially or otherwise) solution to vaccinate the globe every 4 months. With the same substance that just hasn’t yielded lasting protection. Either we need a new vaccine, or we should settle for yearly boosters, or go back to lockdown or develop better meds or anything. But am I really supposed to get the same vaccine for a 4th time within 12 months? I just don’t see why. 

 

If you are elderly or in a vulnerable group that is very at risk if they catch covid then there is sense to keep topping up. For everyone else I don’t really see the logic until it becomes clear that your immunity to severe disease drops dramatically. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

If one isn't good enough, why get 2?  

You can find out via google. :) The question you really need to be asking is what are you trying to achieve.  The norm is 1 to 2 doses (sometimes 3).  I haven't seen any science supporting your suggestion.

Its even possible that in a few months we'll find out that 2 doses were almost as good as 3 when it comes to avoiding serious illness.  But yes, we should keep an open mind.

Accepting HoI's point about people that are very vulerable.

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26 minutes ago, Padraig said:

You can find out via google. :) The question you really need to be asking is what are you trying to achieve.  The norm is 1 to 2 doses (sometimes 3).  I haven't seen any science supporting your suggestion.

Its even possible that in a few months we'll find out that 2 doses were almost as good as 3 when it comes to avoiding serious illness.  But yes, we should keep an open mind.

Accepting HoI's point about people that are very vulerable.

Why is 1-2 doses the norm?  There are series of 3+ boosters for other viruses, aren't there?  The flu is taken yearly.  

When I asked why get a 2nd shot was being irreverent, trying to point out that there is no way of knowing yet whether the 3rd shot was pointless.  

Eta:

I've had three Pfizer shots.  I'm pretty sure as a child I had some vaccines that were given out over time as a series of three or more.  I've had at least 4 tetanus shots.  

 

Edited by Larry of the Lake
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Once we start talking about 3+ doses and refreshes every few months we have to really question the efficacy of that vaccine and start asking if we should be going for more targeted treatments against the latest variants (like we do with flu).

The main reason we're thinking about doing boosters is that they appear to increase effectiveness and production of antibodies which directly impact how dangerous the infection is, and that appears to wane over time after about 2-3 months - at least against Omicron. The reason I think people are suggesting it is that it is the tool we have right now in relative abundance.

But that can't be the way forward, and it will eventually simply result in a highly-resistance strain of the virus that cares nothing about any of those antibodies. 

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6 hours ago, Padraig said:

Hmm.  I'm still very skeptical of this.  If 3 doses doesn't do it, why should 4?  You probably will have a few weeks where you are unlikely to get infected but then you are back to the same place again.  A next generation vaccine may have some appeal but we are a few months away from that option.

So South America has the highest rate of vaccination on a continental level.  Interesting.

https://english.elpais.com/usa/2022-01-13/how-south-america-became-a-global-leader-in-covid-19-vaccination.html

This highlights one thing though.  The US has done reasonably well with getting people vaccinated. Its problem is that way too many people stopped at one dose.  South America had the same problem for whatever reason.  Is that because of side effects?  Work commitments?  I never noticed there was such a huge gap before.

 

I didn't know the USA is a continent. Did they just pick the USA alone for North America because Canada's numbers (84% / 78%) might bump North America up just above South America? Also Australia would like to say hello, I guess.

 

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11 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Why is 1-2 doses the norm?  There are series of 3+ boosters for other viruses, aren't there?  The flu is taken yearly.  

When I asked why get a 2nd shot was being irreverent, trying to point out that there is no way of knowing yet whether the 3rd shot was pointless.  

Eta:

I've had three Pfizer shots.  I'm pretty sure as a child I had some vaccines that were given out over time as a series of three or more.  I've had at least 4 tetanus shots.  

IF you take flu shots, yes. I don’t know if that’s a common practice in some countries, where I live people don’t get annual flu shots by default. I never had a flu shot in my life and I don’t know anybody who regularly gets a flu shot. 
The vaccines I did have, for tick-encephalitis and hpv have a vaccination schedule of 2-3 doses that you are fully aware of before you get them (and they don’t change every 6 months - this being the key here). The covid vaccine was planned for 2 doses and later annual reminders should the virus stay with us in the long term. That’s not the same as taking an extra shot every 4 months because we hope that it’ll up the fading protection.

The point is, like you said, that there’s no way of knowing. We seem to have an inkling that a third dose of the same thing is equally of limited use against omicron (and any future variant) as the first two were, but we don’t really know for sure. So what is the idea of a fourth shot of the same thing based on? Other than, we have developed a vaccine that’s no longer efficient because nature found a shortcut around it, but we have invested too much PR and money into it, so we don’t really want to backtrack ourselves. 

The point is not the number of shots needed, but the not knowing the number of shots needed and guessing in the dark and changing previous guesses. If 2021 rolled out covid vaccines saying that you’ll need 4 shots or quarterly reminders, nobody would bet an eye because we would have reason to believe this is supposed to be. It’s not, 2 shots were supposed to be and annual reminders. But the virus changed, the vaccine no longer works the way it should (not to say it doesn’t work at all, it does), so we aren’t proceeding according to a planned and tested schedule, we are bringing forward those annual reminders and hoping it’ll play out favorably, while we have no real idea if it will, or of the ramifications. That’s the problem. Not the vaccine, not the number of doses. 

And I know this isn’t how science works and I know miscalculation and inability to predict the future are part of science and I know science didn’t “lie to us” it just found out more and is trying to deal with it. But this is not something you can  sell to 8 billion people especially not to the western half of it, because we have a pathological tendency to “know better” (as I’m portraying right now, as we all are) and distrust the media and authority, who contrary to science do lie to us, over and over and over again. 

and before I give an anti-vaccine impression (which I’m very far from), let me specify that I had three shots of Moderna and I’m not against the idea of a fourth/other vaccine - just not in 4 months and not necessarily the same thing. 

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The only reason we have annual flu shots is that the strains mutate fast and are numerous enough that we face a very different virus every year, on that mostly evades last year's shot. We know that this is not the case with covid, so even a yearly shot would be quite ludicrous. Having a new shot every 4 months to counter a virus that is as stable as covid is downright ridiculous. The only question is how many original doses are required, according to which schedule - as said, 2 doses months apart might actually be enough to get the basic immune response, and 3 doses are needed because we had to jab people quick to blunt the pandemic. Israel already sees that the 4th dose boosts immune system for a month, then it's back to pre-booster levels. They're going to have to show very convincing evidence that it's needed for me to get a 4th shot before 2030, unless of course a new variant broadly screws up previous immunity.

Besides, we're all going to get in touch with Omicron, which will be its own booster for at least half the planet.

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14 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I didn't know the USA is a continent. Did they just pick the USA alone for North America because Canada's numbers (84% / 78%) might bump North America up just above South America? Also Australia would like to say hello, I guess.

When I read the article originally, I actually went onto ourworldindata and checked North America, Oceania etc.  The article is correct about South America.

14 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Why is 1-2 doses the norm?  There are series of 3+ boosters for other viruses, aren't there?  The flu is taken yearly.  

When I asked why get a 2nd shot was being irreverent, trying to point out that there is no way of knowing yet whether the 3rd shot was pointless.  

Eta:

I've had three Pfizer shots.  I'm pretty sure as a child I had some vaccines that were given out over time as a series of three or more.  I've had at least 4 tetanus shots.  

I think you also misunderstood my initial post.  Clueless Northman may be right in his post but I haven't ruled out another dose.  I was simply suggesting that taking one every few months is probably not a good idea.  What Kal said basically.

So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if I have another dose in 2022 but not 3 or 4!  

The whole idea of reworked vaccines is also interesting me.  This articel gives a lot more info.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whats-holding-up-new-omicron-vaccines1/

There are plenty articles on the net about why vaccines are normally two doses if you are interested.  I'm not an expert, so i'd go straight to those if I was you.

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11 hours ago, Padraig said:

When I read the article originally, I actually went onto ourworldindata and checked North America, Oceania etc.  The article is correct about South America.

I think you also misunderstood my initial post.  Clueless Northman may be right in his post but I haven't ruled out another dose.  I was simply suggesting that taking one every few months is probably not a good idea.  What Kal said basically.

So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if I have another dose in 2022 but not 3 or 4!  

The whole idea of reworked vaccines is also interesting me.  This articel gives a lot more info.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whats-holding-up-new-omicron-vaccines1/

There are plenty articles on the net about why vaccines are normally two doses if you are interested.  I'm not an expert, so i'd go straight to those if I was you.

That's why I said Australia. Oceania is not a continent.

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Expected. As stated in the article the judges could only really rule on whether the decision met the conditions of the legislation and not the merits of the decision itself. It may have been a braindead decision, but it met the conditions of the law according to the judges, so the only decision they could make was to allowed it to stand. Whether that says the law itself is braindead is a third question, but that is not a question the judges could rule on either.

Team Djok really should have appealed to the minister by grovelling and boot-licking and making promises to get the minister to rescind his decision. The problem is I think the only thing that would change the minister's mind would be a public vaccination, and it seems Djok is resolute in refusing vaccination.

And more from Australia

Quote

Anti-vaxxers have flooded intensive care units in the Byron Bay area in New South Wales, with one doctor confirming things are turning out exactly "as we feared".

A hospital in Australia's anti-vax heartland has made the startling admission that all six of the patients currently in ICU are unvaccinated.

Lismore Base Hospital has now been forced to open a third Covid ward, with 50 patients admitted after contracting the virus.

The Daily Telegraph reported the current crisis is unfolding exactly as doctors predicted, with the majority of hospitalised cases unvaccinated.

"It is as we feared," Dr Chris Ingall, from the hospital's medical staff council, told the publication.

"We are seeing an almost exclusively unvaccinated population in the hospital and exclusively unvaccinated in the intensive care ward at this point.

"We predicted this ... everyone predicted it would sweep through the pockets of the unvaccinated."

 

Edited by The Anti-Targ
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Well the vaccine mandate has been announced and the pro-covid side has won

18+ and countless exceptions.

No systematic enforcement just a fine if the police find out that you are unvaccinated if you have an encounter with them for other reasons. As our far right police force constantly refuses to enforce the other Covid-19 rules it is completely pointless.

No surprise there to be honest. 

Only sitting drinking/eating allowed and masks when you are not at the table. COVID rules Austria style. Skiing >>>>> people who need hospital beds.

 

Edited by Luzifer's right hand
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52 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Expected. As stated in the article the judges could only really rule on whether the decision met the conditions of the legislation and not the merits of the decision itself. It may have been a braindead decision, but it met the conditions of the law according to the judges, so the only decision they could make was to allowed it to stand. Whether that says the law itself is braindead is a third question, but that is not a question the judges could rule on either.

 

I'm sure they also would have liked to rule on the question "is the minister a dickhead for ruining our weekend by dropping this at 6:30pm on a Friday night".

But yeah, I very much disagree with the law but it was pretty clear to me this was the only decision they could reach

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2 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

No systematic enforcement just a fine if the police find out that you are unvaccinated if you have an encounter with them for other reasons. As our far right police force constantly refuses to enforce the other Covid-19 rules it is completely pointless.

And the far right will then cry the mandates were ineffective due to a lack of upticks in vaccinations.

Their obstruction will never be worth commenting on nor any study showing mandates generally working when properly enforced.  And then will whine that it’s ridiculous to try to stop the sprea d of Covid at this point. 

The far-right is despicable willingly to sacrifice the welfare of their nations for their culture wars. 
 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
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11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

That's why I said Australia. Oceania is not a continent.

You are kind of nit picking this aren't you? :)   When you throw places like Papua New Guinea into the mix with Australia, which is often done, you end up with a lower score for that part of the world.  There is no prize for whoever has the highest score, so I don't think it really matters.

I thought the gap between those that got 1 dose and 2 the more interesting thing!

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On 1/13/2022 at 9:29 AM, LongRider said:

It's being reported that Glenn Beck has contracted covid for the 2nd time and that he's not vacc'd.  He's claiming to be being treated with Ivermectrin, and "Beck told Levin he was not being treated with monoclonal antibodies, some of which are less effective against the omicron strain of the virus, but was instead taking ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, fluvoxamine - none of which are approved coronavirus treatments - and that his doctors were "hitting it really hard."  and that it is going into his lungs.    Beck article in The Hill.   

It should be noted Beck is able to safely experiment like  this because he’s incredibly rich.

A much poorer person trying these treatments probably wouldn’t have a certified crack team of doctors to insure he wouldn’t accidentally killhimself.

 

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32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It should be noted Beck is able to safely experiment like  this because he’s incredibly rich.

A much poorer person trying these treatments probably wouldn’t have a certified crack team of doctors to insure he wouldn’t accidentally killhimself.

 

It’s also the Joe Rogan thing where he gets Covid, takes an hugely expensive cocktail of drugs, claims that the drugs stopped him from getting seriously ill and uses that to back up his claims of their effectiveness. Except for the vast majority of people who get covid, they also don’t get seriously ill.. so he has no idea whether they worked or not. Rogan also has a ton of money to spunk of hugely expensive drugs instead of a free vaccine.

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I think the other thing that Rogan did (correct me if I'm wrong) is that with his drug cocktail and monoclonal antibodies he also took ivermectin and used his case of not suffering any significant ill effects as proof that ivermectin works.

Meanwhile, other outspoken anti-vaxxers who are possibly not quite so wealthy, or healthy (Joe Rogan at least seems like a very healthy dude in general), have stocked up on ivermectin but have died anyway.

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"Do the Omicron Numbers Mean What We Think They Mean?
COVID’s winter surge holds a deeper lesson about the perils of interpreting data without a full appreciation of the context."

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/24/do-the-omicron-numbers-mean-what-we-think-they-mean

Quote

 

.... A coronavirus infection isn’t what it once was. Studies suggest that, compared with Delta, Omicron is a third to half as likely to send someone to the hospital; by some estimates, the chance that an older, vaccinated person will die of covid is now lower than the risk posed by the seasonal flu. And yet the variant is exacting a punishing toll—medical, social, economic. (Omicron still presents a major threat to people who are unvaccinated.) The United States is recording, on average, more than eight hundred thousand coronavirus cases a day, three times last winter’s peak. Given the growing use of at-home tests, this official count greatly underestimates the true number of infections. We don’t know how many rapid tests are used each day, or what proportion return positive, rendering unreliable traditional metrics, such as a community’s test-positivity rate, which is used to guide policy on everything from school closures to sporting events.

There are many other numbers we’d like to know. How likely is Omicron to deliver not an irritating cold but the worst flu of your life? How does that risk increase with the number and severity of medical conditions a person has? What are the chances of lingering symptoms following a mild illness? How long does immunity last after a booster shot or an infection? Americans aren’t waiting to find out. Last week, rates of social distancing and self-quarantining rose to their highest levels in nearly a year, and dining, shopping, and social gatherings fell to new lows. Half of Americans believe that it will be at least a year before they return to their pre-pandemic lives, if they ever do; three-quarters feel that they’re as likely, or more so, to contract the virus today—a year after vaccines became available—as they were when the pandemic began. .....

 

This has happened with everybody we know, and we anecdotally are seeing it around here, with how empty the restaurants are -- and the continuing rise, it seems from street traffic, how many more people are masking..

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