Covid 44: The Sickening

[mormont]

Two things:

1. Radical antivaxxers are rarer in the UK but they do exist. I've spoken before about the folks in Dundee, hundreds of them, trying to force their way into the vaccination centre and shouting abuse at the NHS staff.

2. That said they are a minority. But, whatever their reason, they are wrong: and unfortunately, while I would love to respect their right to be wrong and let them get on with their lives, that's not an option we currently have. We can only tolerate a certain amount of the population being unvaccinated and the people who would prefer not to have a vaccine are behind the people who cannot be vaccinated in the queue for those slots. They are going to have to miss out.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't know any unvaxxed people who aren't somewhat unhinged about something, whether it's the pandemic, or vaccines in general, or they irrationally hate this particular government, or they irrationally hate government in general, or it's big pharma, or they are simple fools who have been conned into believing lies. There is something wrong about everyone I know irl who is unvaxxed, and I know a lot more unvaxxed people than I thought I would, sadly.

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I doubt it. America has a very higher percentage of crazies Karadin has already said.

In terms of the crazy anti-vaxxer sentiments I suspect  there’s not much difference.

23 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

How many unvaccinated people do you personally know?

How many personal anecdotes would you care for me to list? Anecdotes that you cannot verify.

[lessthanluke]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In terms of the crazy anti-vaxxer sentiments I suspect  there’s not much difference.

How many personal anecdotes would you care for me to list? Anecdotes that you cannot verify.

List them all and I'll say you can't verify them like most of the comments on this subject in these threads. Its all anecdotal. Your survey means jack shit.

I'll also take your lack of answer as a zero so thank you for proving my point.

[Varysblackfyre321]

25 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

What this thread shows me honestly is that most people on here haven't actually spoken to many/if any unvaccinated people about their views.

No, I have. Some are not terrible. I’d still see it as a public good to see their shamed and generate a degryof repercussions.

27 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yes there is a very vocal anti mask anti all measures part of the anti vax group but its a minority imo and in my experience.

in your personal experience. To which we should take as lesser than to any surveys or studies around the heavy correlation between anti-all measures and anti-vaxers.

31 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

know a LOT of unvaxxed people

Supposedly.

[lessthanluke]

3 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

 

Not sure what happened here.

[lessthanluke]

29 minutes ago, mormont said:

Two things:

1. Radical antivaxxers are rarer in the UK but they do exist. I've spoken before about the folks in Dundee, hundreds of them, trying to force their way into the vaccination centre and shouting abuse at the NHS staff.

2. That said they are a minority. But, whatever their reason, they are wrong: and unfortunately, while I would love to respect their right to be wrong and let them get on with their lives, that's not an option we currently have. We can only tolerate a certain amount of the population being unvaccinated and the people who would prefer not to have a vaccine are behind the people who cannot be vaccinated in the queue for those slots. They are going to have to miss out.

Exactly they're a minority but if you read this thread you'd think its 99 percent of them. Baffling.

In regards to your second point I just massively disagree but we've already had this discussion.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

List them all and I'll say you can't verify them like most of the comments on this subject in these threads. Its all anecdotal.

Oh dear god are you one of those “data is a plural of anecdote” people who thinks them telling stories no one can coborate should be treated seriously as actual surveys, studies, to which at least gives people the chance to dissect and demonstrate the validity of?

I can’t prove if you’re completely lying about your anecdotes anymore than you could mine.

Alright. I’ll let you in on my personal experience with anti-vaxxers. All anti-Vaxers I’ve known have kicked puppies. I don’t know if there was a cause and effect between being unvaccinated and kicking puppies.

This is just my personal experience. 

11 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I'll also take your lack of answer as a zero so thank you for proving my point.

I’ve known hundreds. Each one has kicked a puppy.

Every. Single. One.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

44 minutes ago, mormont said:

Radical antivaxxers are rarer in the UK but they do exist. I've spoken before about the folks in Dundee, hundreds of them, trying to force their way into the vaccination centre and shouting abuse at the NHS staff.

I would agree radical anti-vaxxers like that are considerably rarer. 

It’s in part why I think mandates and passports are good whips to get anti-vaxxers to do the right thing.

Most will fall in line rather than lose their job for instance or suffer continuous tests indefinitely to access certain privileges in the public.

 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Two things:

1. Radical antivaxxers are rarer in the UK but they do exist. I've spoken before about the folks in Dundee, hundreds of them, trying to force their way into the vaccination centre and shouting abuse at the NHS staff.

Right, I'm certainly not denying they exist in our other countries and I didn't really follow through on the point I meant to make so it's hardly surprising it's not being picked up on lol. 

What I was thinking is that the numbers of these genuine fuckwits is not a sufficiently large percentage of the population to explain the course of the various outbreaks/waves in most cases for the UK/Aus etc* - it simply comes down to it being a highly infectious airborne pathogen. I feel the situation in the US is different, that they are a large enough percentage of the population that the behaviour of the waves can actually be attributed to them. From that perspective I can understand Americans having a lot less patience for the 1/4 of their country that sabotages any attempt to make things better.

*Things get a little trickier when you're talking the initial outbreak in a location that's been actively succeeding at elimination, a small number can let the infection get out into the community - my point is kicking in once it's out. No need for the board kiwis to chime in

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I conceded quite candidly that I can't prove he's lying.

 

Oh, get out of here with this 'I'm so innocent' nonsense. As you say in your next couple of sentences even in this post, you did so by equating his experience to you claiming that every antivaxxer you know kicks puppies. So you were clearly trying to ridicule the notion of what he was saying.

 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

am I not allowed to bring any data from the US on how vaccinated people compare to non-vaccinated people.

I mean, you can bring the data if you want, it just isn't any more relevant or statistically useful than his anecdotal evidence to what's going on outside of the US, and you shouldn't then go on a rant about how anti-intellectual your intelocutor is.Especially with the difference that he was never claiming to prove anything other than his own experience, whereas you were. Your treatment of the statistics is far more insulting to statistical honesty than his is, because he wasn't claiming to play by any. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

Oh, get out of here with this 'I'm so innocent' nonsense.

Where did I say he was wrong?

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

As you say in your next couple of sentences even in this post, you did so by equating his experience to you claiming that every antivaxxer you know kicks puppies.

You can’t prove I’m lying.

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

So you were clearly trying to ridicule the notion of what he was saying.

To be clear I only brought up my personal experience after he declared everything so far in thread was dismissed as anecdotal.

I got a data is a plural for anecdote vibes. 
 

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I mean, you can bring the data if you want, it just isn't any more relevant or statistically useful than his anecdotal evidence to what's going on outside of the US, and you shouldn't then go on a rant about how anti-intellectual your intelocutor is.

Am I only allowed to specifically cite studies in regards to the particular part of the world is from?

And if the person in response cries the data presented is just anecdotal…I think that’s just anti-intellectualism. 
I’m open to a person just going hey this survey shouldn’t be used to extrapolate trends in other countries. 
He didn’t just do that. He called everything in the thread just anecdotal.

So I shared an anecdote.

13 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Especially with the difference that he was never claiming to prove anything other than his own experience, whereas you were.

Eh. People do use personal anecdotes to hint at the idea of a broader trend happening even if they don’t explicitly say there’s a broader trend.

 

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I doubt it. America has a very higher percentage of crazies Karadin has already said.

 

How many unvaccinated people do you personally know? What are their views on the vaccine/pandemic as a whole?

What this thread shows me honestly is that most people on here haven't actually spoken to many/if any unvaccinated people about their views.

Yes there is a very vocal anti mask anti all measures part of the anti vax group but its a minority imo and in my experience.

I know a LOT of unvaxxed people. Probably down to the industry I work in. 99.9 percent of them are not anti mask, they do not spread anti vax information, they are just quietly trying to get on with their lives like everyone else.

The small minority of those on my social media who are anti everything are Americans...

I recognise that many of the unvaxxed have succumbed to misinformation rather than being active in spreading it. However, the reason that they're getting on with their lives is because other people around them have been vaccinated against Polio, Smallpox, Measles, Whooping Cough, Rubella etc. The unvaxxed in wealthy countries have been living in a bubble of first world privilege that a new disease represents a real challenge to. The higher the number of unvaccinated people in the population, the harder it is to fight the disease and the greater the risk to vulnerable communities like the Indigenous population, the disabled, the elderly and the immunocompromised.

[polishgenius]

Anyway, I'm sat in Germany watching our case numbers trying to decide whether they're gonna shoot up or not. We had a random, unexplained spike just before Omnicron hit, that was coming down as everyone else went up, now it's back to rising but seems confused about whether it really should or not. Kinda weird, dunno if there's an explanation for it.


What is a concern is the relatively high numbers of deaths. Germany had that really low death rate early on and it's almost as if it's trying to catch up - despite having similar or much lower case numbers the last few weeks than the likes of France or the UK, the death rate for the last six weeks or so has been somewhere between 300 and 500 daily, which is a lot higher than anyone else's seems to be.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

15 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

A coworker is trying to use “I don’t want to endanger my unborn baby with this vaccine” As her medical reason for not having the vaccine, before the mandates take effect and she may be fired. 
 

Even though she is not pregnant. She says she and her husband are trying. 

F I R E D.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

How many unvaccinated people do you personally know? What are their views on the vaccine/pandemic as a whole?

What this thread shows me honestly is that most people on here haven't actually spoken to many/if any unvaccinated people about their views.

Yes there is a very vocal anti mask anti all measures part of the anti vax group but its a minority imo and in my experience.

I know a LOT of unvaxxed people. Probably down to the industry I work in. 99.9 percent of them are not anti mask, they do not spread anti vax information, they are just quietly trying to get on with their lives like everyone else.

The small minority of those on my social media who are anti everything are Americans...

A lot, and yes they are all Americans, and yes, most of them spew batshit reasons why they won't get the vaccine. For example, one of my friends refused to get jabbed because he thought the government was trying to track him (he's a veteran, btw, who posts his entire life on social media). You know what made him get the shot? It was required to go to a Dave Chappelle show. His behavior is not an outlier here.  

[DMC]

7 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

How many unvaccinated people do you personally know? What are their views on the vaccine/pandemic as a whole?

What this thread shows me honestly is that most people on here haven't actually spoken to many/if any unvaccinated people about their views.

This is quite the presumptuous assertion.  While I'm an American, which apparently means it doesn't count or something, I know and/or discussed their views with friends, family (cousins), uber drivers, neighbors (and living in an apartment complex I have over a hundred neighbors), my parents' neighbor who takes care of their dog when they're away, her son, her boyfriend.  

All perfectly nice people otherwise (well, I don't really know about the uber drivers), but they're still idiotic jackasses when it comes to dealing with covid.  And yes, they are far more likely to not follow other measures.  As for spreading antivax information, I don't know and don't really care, but they certainly consume it and regurgitate it back to me when discussing.

[JGP]

So… unrelated [I hope] but I just read about 13 million locked down in Xi’an China due to the emergence of a hemorrhagic fever that has the early symptoms of Covid

hApPy NeW yEaR

 

edit: early symptoms similar to Covid, even

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

There is something wrong about everyone I know irl who is unvaxxed, and I know a lot more unvaxxed people than I thought I would, sadly.

Same here.  A lot of musicians in the South, in particular.

Racist too.  Quite a few don't even try to hide their hatred of Native Americans and Latinos and immigrants -- these are all in the midwest and in the south.

A lot of them are from states like Texas, which is demanding federal aid and assistance since their doctors, nurses, hospitals and EMS have broken from the massive numbers of covid-sick non-vaccinated.  At the same time they, like Ted Cruz, are also openly telling their ilks it's time for Texas to seriously explore secession -- "We'll take NASA, the military and Oil."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

@JEORDHl

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/22/china-covid-border-supply-chains/  

" ... Officials in Xi’an say they are facing the “double threat” of new coronavirus cases as well as an outbreak of hemorrhagic fever, a seasonal disease caused by the hantavirus. “Currently, the situation of pandemic prevention and control remains complicated and grim,” said Zhang Fenghu, deputy secretary general of the city government, announcing the lockdown after authorities reported 52 new coronavirus cases Wednesday. The city has reported a total of 143 cases since Dec 9. ...."

[JGP]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

A lot of them are from states like Texas, which is demanding federal aid and assistance since their doctors, nurses, hospitals and EMS have broken from the massive numbers of covid-sick non-vaccinated.  At the same time they, like Ted Cruz, are also openly telling their ilks it's time for Texas to seriously explore secession -- "We'll take NASA, the military and Oil."

The province of Alberta is like that here. To which I'd say, okie den dere eh.

Have fun negotiating land and trade deals [particularly with Indigenous] enjoy developing your own currency, try not to whine too much about travel while you develop your own recognized passport situation, etc. 

They're all idiots.