Crackpot Debunking Thread

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Crackpots with evidence against them but yet persisting especially if a small group of posters keep posting that despite being proven wrong. No, just no. This some flat earther level behaviour.

Look, I really don't know who you are talking about here.  If you are talking about me, then I will say this in my own defense:  I don't for one minute think I have all the answers but I am interested in Martin's myth building and things like the rule of three.  I still don't know what Ann Goell means by this:

 

Quote

 

According to this Q&A with his editor Anne Groell, GRRM foreshadows all the time as part of his "three-fold revelation strategy":

Q: Anne, although you're the envy of many a GRRM fan, do you ever wish you didn't have to edit the books so that you could be surprised by them all at once along with the rest of us?

A: No. As above, he doesn’t tell me a lot. He feels I am most effective at my job if I am surprised along with everyone else. And it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.

 

 

I'm fairly certain I don't know what Martin's prophecies mean in their entirety.  I've been picking away at it for years and some explanations have come to light that can be found in the text.  The blood moon eclipse that Tyrion observes as the sun rising in the West is one example.  That's a recent find like, the hellibore/winter rose.  These aren't things that I have made up.  It is what it is.  It certainly changes the way I think of long established theories.

There may only be a few people who are interested, but so what?  There are things I need to know and things I don't need to know.

[Corvo the Crow]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Look, I really don't know who you are talking about here.  If you are talking about me, then I will say this in my own defense:  I don't for one minute think I have all the answers but I am interested in Martin's myth building and things like the rule of three.  I still don't know what Ann Goell means by this:

No. I haven’t seen you insisting on keeping posting debunked stuff over and over again. And you know that I like some of your ideas.

I like reading theories especially if they are well written, well thought out and supported. I don’t like seeing crackpot that has been debunked 49 times for the 50th time.

Say, for example I wondered whether a character in a vision was Cotter Pyke and you pointed out to me that he was some other person. What if I had insisted that it was Cotter and kept posting this  over and over again with fanfic despite people providing evidence against and pointing out to me time and again that it wasn’t the case? This is the kind of thing I’m talking about.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No. I haven’t seen you insisting on keeping posting debunked stuff over and over again. And you know that I like some of your ideas 

Fair enough.  Here is my caution...  I'm 65 years old and some of our youngest members are in high school.  That's a big range in age groups and understanding of the text. Some of our newest members may be new to the books as well and I expect that old questions will be recycled.  What I notice in some readers is confusion that is compounded by Martin layering meaning upon meaning and sometimes people end up in the weeds trying to work it out.  In this case, I think you have to let them work it out for themselves.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Say, for example I wondered whether a character in a vision was Cotter Pyke and you pointed out to me that he was some other person. What if I had insisted that it was Cotter and kept posting this  over and over again with fanfic despite people providing evidence against and pointing out to me time and again that it wasn’t the case? This is the kind of thing I’m talking about.

I'd say walk away and don't give it another thought.

[AlaskanSandman]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'd say walk away and don't give it another thought.

Idk, he's trying to get out which ones he hates while still trying to be vague. Im mildly interested to see if he'll ever spill which theories are giving him such fitful frights in the wee hours of the night. You can tell there are some very specific threads he seems to have in mind. Im a little fascinated to watch him work this out for himself and wonder with great anticipation and intrigue to how this will resolve it self for him. 

Its like he see's some one he thinks is dumber than him, having a good time, despite his insistence, and he's not going to be content till he finally pees in their cheerios. 

I generally just don't read stuff Im not interested rather than waste my time, then waste further time debating with them so I can correct them on their mistakes. Doesn't help me personally get further in understanding the novels.

There are certainly theories or questions rather that I find I wouldn't ask. Like what was Sandor's toy @Seams is curious about, but I was interested enough to see what she was curious about. (I had no thoughts though either way to help her so I moved on), or I see ones about "What if" so and so hadn't died, or done this instead of that. Which is very hypothetical and some may bash as fan fiction or wishful thinking and rubbish since it's not what happened in the novel.

That being said, maybe some people are aspiring writers and wish to understand plot points, plot devices, or hypothetical scenarios just to flesh it out some in their minds. Maybe it helps them in ways I don't understand. I certainly don't want to ruin their fun or discourage people from discussing on the boards.

This general subject of Crackpot theories though and what people deem are crackpot, and all the negative stuff towards others somewhat interesting. Being obviously one who goes against the grain with some theories and dealt with less than friendly discussion on my theads before, its interesting what drives some people to go out of their ways to be like that to people. Like I said, If some thing isn't interesting to me, I don't generally waste more of my time on it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. SInce he can't change their theories, maybe he should find a different way of enjoying himself on the forums other than going out of his way to rail against ideas he doesn't like in the hopes they will go away. Some people just don't cave to peer pressure or negativity thrown at them.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Fair enough.  Here is my caution...  I'm 65 years old and some of our youngest members are in high school.  That's a big range in age groups and understanding of the text. Some of our newest members may be new to the books as well and I expect that old questions will be recycled.  What I notice in some readers is confusion that is compounded by Martin layering meaning upon meaning and sometimes people end up in the weeds trying to work it out.  In this case, I think you have to let them work it out for themselves.

Sage master haha Im feeling brisk at 38 now. I definitely agree that age, experience, general knowledge and such likely color people perspectives on the book, and just some healthy suspicion of all things.

Edit- Also English isn't everyone's native language on here either. I always wonder if the book they are reading is translated or what not.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Idk, he's trying to get out which ones he hates

Yeaa... no. As I haven't had practice for a very long time, so perhaps I haven't been very able to convey information. Though I have posted an explanation several times, not posting that explanation in OP in  the first place didn't help either, I guess, so sorry if these were the case. So again, I'm not hating any specific theory. I am bothered by people bringing up nonsense theories that were proven to be wrong again and again.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

while still trying to be vague.

 I've only been active again the past forthnight or so, so a quick look into my activity would leave nothing vague about it, so why would I even try to do something as pointless?

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im mildly interested to see if he'll ever spill which theories are giving him such fitful frights in the wee hours of the night. You can tell there are some very specific threads he seems to have in mind. 

Ohooo! Seems to me someone took offense. Sorry but you aren't the only one to have ever brought about Dany not raised in Braavos and neither were you the first. It wasn't even in my mind while opening this thread. So don't go flattering yourself. If you really want something spelled out, getting harassed by Megorova's insistence on bringing her fanfic, even after it's disproven, over and over again on several threads was the main reason. But again, this thread was not a target specific one for theories, nor is it specifically targeting a person for that matter, it's the behaviour of some people that keep insisting on harassing people with their theories that were disproven over and over again.

 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im a little fascinated to watch him work this out for himself and wonder with great anticipation and intrigue to how this will resolve it self for him. 

I haven't been active in the forum for over a year now, if you don't count a handful of posts in 2020, I've not been active since late 2019 and soon I won't be active again,  I may spare some time  to send a post or two a day but more likely it will be a post or two a week at best, perhaps not even that, so obviously, theories that go bump in the night aren't exactly a concern to me, sorry.

 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its like he see's some one he thinks is dumber than him, having a good time, despite his insistence, and he's not going to be content till he finally pees in their cheerios. 

 sorry but this part really made me laugh.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also English isn't everyone's native language on here either. I always wonder if the book they are reading is translated or what not.

Thats actually a real problem right there. I had a debate once with a person who had only read a German translation, and it turned out a crucial part of his theory hinged on what ultimatly turned out to be a mistranslation in his German version.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeaa... no. As I haven't had practice for a very long time, so perhaps I haven't been very able to convey information. Though I have posted an explanation several times, not posting that explanation in OP in  the first place didn't help either, I guess, so sorry if these were the case. So again, I'm not hating any specific theory. I am bothered by people bringing up nonsense theories that were proven to be wrong again and again.

 I've only been active again the past forthnight or so, so a quick look into my activity would leave nothing vague about it, so why would I even try to do something as pointless?

Ohooo! Seems to me someone took offense. Sorry but you aren't the only one to have ever brought about Dany not raised in Braavos and neither were you the first. It wasn't even in my mind while opening this thread. So don't go flattering yourself. If you really want something spelled out, getting harassed by Megorova's insistence on bringing her fanfic, even after it's disproven, over and over again on several threads was the main reason. But again, this thread was not a target specific one for theories, nor is it specifically targeting a person for that matter, it's the behaviour of some people that keep insisting on harassing people with their theories that were disproven over and over again.

 

I haven't been active in the forum for over a year now, if you don't count a handful of posts in 2020, I've not been active since late 2019 and soon I won't be active again,  I may spare some time  to send a post or two a day but more likely it will be a post or two a week at best, perhaps not even that, so obviously, theories that go bump in the night aren't exactly a concern to me, sorry.

 

 sorry but this part really made me laugh.

I wouldn't know your activity, I don't actually check anyones activity even if I like them and their theories haha and no Im not offended or suspecting any of my theories, but I do know some of mine fall under "Crack pot" for some people. Ive certainly been put off by some of the strong views on here some times but wouldn't say im overtly offended. It does how ever seem that some particular threads have goaded you to provoke this post, and Im slightly entertained to see which ones they are. I did word some it in a cheeky manner but tried not to do so in an offensive way. Though im certainly pointing out the irony of stating the board is dead now while seeking out to bash the "Crackpot" theories of those likely not on here as much or just stubborn about their ideas. Others have pointed out that Irony though. Ive read your responses stating you like some theories, but just not others as you "feel" they have been debunked, but others dont. To be fair, in a book with faceless men, baby swaps, unknown baby mama's and the such, its no wonder some people dont trust anything. Including people identities. 

Should I be offended though that none of my theories made the list? I did a post years ago questioning if Rhaegar was gay and that was maybe why he seemed disinterested in women. His best friend is gay. Plus Loras gave Sansa a rose but was gay despite her infatuation with him. That post got quite a rise out of some people but seemed a fair question to me. The marriage to Elia could've just been him doing his "Duty" to his house as Renly was expected to do. Specially in light of needing an heir to bolster any claims and let your lords know you have your succession worked out so no likely civil war in the ensuing years.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Thats actually a real problem right there. I had a debate once with a person who had only read a German translation, and it turned out a crucial part of his theory hinged on what ultimatly turned out to be a mistranslation in his German version.

I suspect as much, and even if they have learned English. Their understanding of the words, or slangs will still very. Like an English speaker trying to understand the Latin Americans usage of Pinche.

Quote

 “Pinche" is used as “damned", although its original meaning is “kitchen boy". “Cabrón" means “cuckold", but is often used as “bad guy" or “evil person".

Just an example of trying to understand another language even when you kinda understand it.

 

I know plenty of English speakers who just don't have a wide vocabulary and I can't expect people of another language to just learn every word and usage.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I wouldn't know your activity, I don't actually check anyones activity even if I like them and their theories haha and no Im not offended or suspecting any of my theories, but I do know some of mine fall under "Crack pot" for some people. Ive certainly been put off by some of the strong views on here some times but wouldn't say im overtly offended. It does how ever seem that some particular threads have goaded you to provoke this post, and Im slightly entertained to see which ones they are. I did word some it in a cheeky manner but tried not to do so in an offensive way. Though im certainly pointing out the irony of stating the board is dead now while seeking out to bash the "Crackpot" theories of those likely not on here as much or just stubborn about their ideas. Others have pointed out that Irony though. Ive read your responses stating you like some theories, but just not others as you "feel" they have been debunked, but others dont. To be fair, in a book with faceless men, baby swaps, unknown baby mama's and the such, its no wonder some people dont trust anything. Including people identities. 

Should I be offended though that none of my theories made the list? I did a post years ago questioning if Rhaegar was gay and that was maybe why he seemed disinterested in women. His best friend is gay. Plus Loras gave Sansa a rose but was gay despite her infatuation with him. That post got quite a rise out of some people but seemed a fair question to me. The marriage to Elia could've just been him doing his "Duty" to his house as Renly was expected to do. Specially in light of needing an heir to bolster any claims and let your lords know you have your succession worked out so no likely civil war in the ensuing years.

Again, it's not the matter of whether a theory is crackpot or not. It's whether that people insist to keep posting that theory over and over again and harass people with their fanfic, despite it being disproven over and over again.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Again, it's not the matter of whether a theory is crackpot or not. It's whether that people insist to keep posting that theory over and over again and harass people with their fanfic, despite it being disproven over and over again.

Again, that is a thin line of justification. Define "disproven" and give an example of a real one disproven but insisted upon? As Im not sure where you draw the line. Like I know i've misquoted things I misremembered, but I typically back down if Ive pulled a dumb dumb like that. Is that what you mean though? Like some one misquoting something and going with it?

Your example of some one in a dream being some one but not another isn't really a good example unless GRRM himself has confirmed that person's identity. Otherwise, its a dream and interpretative. 

[direpupy]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I suspect as much, and even if they have learned English. Their understanding of the words, or slangs will still very. Like an English speaker trying to understand the Latin Americans usage of Pinche.

Just an example of trying to understand another language even when you kinda understand it.

 

I know plenty of English speakers who just don't have a wide vocabulary and I can't expect people of another language to just learn every word and usage.

I sometimes have that problem myself, i'm Dutch so English is not my first language, i'm lucky in the sence that English is mandatory here in highschool and that my university study was mostly in English because most of the books where and we had international students, my aunt being a English teacher also did not hurt   But i still have to think twice about some things before i say or write them and i always read things twice aswell just to be sure.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I think part of the problem is that people differ on what is considered "disproven."

I mean, take Lemongate. I myself am not a fan of the theory, as I think it risks shoddy storytelling. But if this theory is given as an example of something that is conclusively disproven, even someone like me is thinking: "Really? Is it?"

GRRM has conclusively spoken against a few fan theories, but he actually gave vague encouragement to Lemongaters (vague being an important qualifier here) in his comment about lemons in Braavos. He basically said: "Very astute of you for noticing that. It is not a mistake, and will serve some later purpose. But I will say no more." That itself says nothing about Dorne, or Dany's upbringing, or really anything helpful, but a comment like that is bound to excite fans of a theory like Lemongate, and we don't have enough evidence one way or another at this point to conclusively shut it down.

So, while I have grave doubts about the suitability of something like Lemongate for the larger narrative, I can't disprove it. I just move on, and hope for the best.

I will say that Megorova's theory that the God-on-Earth is actually Haviland Tuf, while clever on some level, goes far beyond what I care to seriously consider for ASOIAF. But I can't disprove it or anything like that, and so trying to argue against it seems to be a futile exercise. So I just politely ignore it and move on. Different strokes for different folks.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

GRRM has conclusively spoken against a few fan theories,

He also said that there were a few fan theories that were correct but he wasn't worried about it because he didn't think they would be believed.  Or words to that effect. That was early days.   

More recently:

'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories George R.R. Martin Has Shot Down (bustle.com)

George R.R. Martin Admits Some 'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories Are Correct | HuffPost Entertainment

George R.R. Martin Says A Fan Correctly Guessed The Ending Of 'Game of Thrones' (yahoo.com)

 

 

 

 

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I sometimes have that problem myself, i'm Dutch so English is not my first language, i'm lucky in the sence that English is mandatory here in highschool and that my university study was mostly in English because most of the books where and we had international students, my aunt being a English teacher also did not hurt   But i still have to think twice about some things before i say or write them and i always read things twice aswell just to be sure.

I also have this problem as a French, the French version is harder to understand than the original one, because the translator sometimes uses words that are no longer used in modern French or change the meaning of sentences. That is why I always check the wiki to find the correct words when I'm talking about specific matters or to understand what people are saying.

Without the wiki, I wouldn't know what "King's Landing" refers to since we don't have an equivalent in French, the word chose by the translator doesn't mean the same thing as the original one. It may lead me to make some mistakes.

[Seams]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd say walk away and don't give it another thought.

 

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I just politely ignore it and move on. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree with these. This thread is just mean-spirited. Trying to single out someone (or several users) for public disapproval is not consistent with the purpose of a forum created to discuss books, in my opinion. 

I skip almost all of the "What if ... ?" threads because I am not interested in rearranging a plot that has been carefully constructed by the author. I realize that is fun for some people so I don't make a point of going into those threads and telling the OP or other participants that they are crackpots and must stop their speculation. 

If someone misrepresents the content of the books, ask them to cite their evidence. Or use the "search of ice and fire" website to find the evidence that contradicts them.

If their post or comment is a theory but extrapolates from the known content of the books, you can politely make a comment along the lines of "I don't see evidence to support that" or use some other phrase to express that you don't follow their logic. Once you have expressed that, there is no need to belabor your point. If they persist in their theories, stay away from their comments and turn your attention to content or users that engage you in a positive way.

Many superficial readers of the books make snarky comments on my posts that they believe to be clever, trying to shame me for engaging in literary analysis. I suspect they truly believe that I am a crackpot and their straight-and-narrow reading of the plot is all that is needed to understand the books. I usually just feel sorry for them and I do wonder why they bother to comment on my threads, which always involve symbolism and literary analysis. If they have made a personal attack on me or my ideas, I will sometimes take the time to eviscerate them as best I can, secure in the knowledge that the author wants words/sword to be used in parallel ways. I am confident in my approach to analyzing the books and I will turn on someone only if they have been rude to me or to another user who has posted something in good faith. (I am also intolerant of people who patronize or criticize GRRM. George R. R. Martin is not your b*tch, people.)

Early on, I discovered the option to "ignore" certain people in the forum. To access this feature, click on your username. In the drop-down menu, under settings, click on "ignored users." Type in the name of the user you want to ignore to add them to your list. If comments or posts by that user cross your path at a later time, you will have the option to click on the item to see it if you choose to do so. I find the "ignore" option helps me to take someone's comments with a grain of salt or to remember who has proven to be (imho) an a**hole in previous threads. It also helps me to save time by skipping some comments if I am working my way through a long thread. 

I am also mindful that people can evolve as they engage with this forum and with the content of the novels. I would not  strongly defend some of the ideas in my early topics or comments. In other cases, I can't even remember writing some comments that I stumble across in an old thread. I know that a couple of my early comments were incoherent when I went back to them later: I was so excited by some idea that my typing couldn't keep up with my racing thoughts. So I know that some people probably judged me as a crackpot for those posts. I hope that some of my later ideas earned back some respect and a chance to engage in dialogue. 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If you really want something spelled out, getting harassed by Megorova's insistence on bringing her fanfic, even after it's disproven, over and over again on several threads was the main reason.

I guessed that this was the target of your thread. The solution is for you to avoid reading her posts and comments, if they bother you so much, not to call on others in the forum to gang up on her or on others you have personally identified as "crackpots." Some of her ideas strike me as insightful and constructive; others don't ring true to me. (And I have politely posted comments refuting some of her assertions, but I don't feel the need to somehow "prove" that she is wrong.) Feel free to post your opposing evidence or theories, but don't use this forum to organize bullies.

[Lord Lannister]

6 minutes ago, Seams said:

I skip almost all of the "What if ... ?" threads because I am not interested in rearranging a plot that has been carefully constructed by the author. I realize that is fun for some people so I don't make a point of going into those threads and telling the OP or other participants that they are crackpots and must stop their speculation. 

It can be a fun mental exercise. I'm a fan of the alternate history genre too. Speculating on alternative outcomes causes you to examine why events happened as they did and what motivated characters to act as they do. It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea though and nothing wrong with that. 

[Mister Smikes]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Crackpots with evidence against them but yet persisting especially if a small group of posters keep posting that despite being proven wrong. No, just no. This some flat earther level behaviour.

R+L=J has evidence against it.  But it is popular nonetheless.  Nor is it necessarily irrational to suggest that some clues are red herrings.

Some theories are less popular, but also have evidence on both sides.  But remember boys and girls, just because it is unpopular does not mean it is not true.

I'm not saying all opinions are equal.  If we did not believe our own opinions were better, they would not be our opinions at all.  It helps, though, to be civil and tolerant to those one disagrees with.

No one is obliged to be convinced by or interested in any other person's theories.

So I'm confused as to what exactly is the point of this thread.

[Jaenara Belarys]

This is essentially a waste of time, no one is going to be swayed by one or two people saying that their theory is debunked. If it gets on your nerves so much, just place them on your ignore list. Easy.