Crackpot Debunking Thread

[Julia H.]

I don't think "debunking" will change a person's fundamental reading of a book. One reader's crackpot is another reader's canon. Some readers find additional joy in making theories and posting them, while other readers don't like to discuss their reading with anyone at all. Debates on these forums are not duels where there must be a winner and a loser. That would be unrealistic to expect, and, given the freedom of speech, no one can be prohibited from posting the same theory or opinion again and again. If you have the purpose of winning in mind, you'd better not start a discussion. However, there are readers (who may not even participate in the discussion) of these posts, who will keep reading if they consider the discussion interesting and will take away from it whatever they find worth keeping. Therefore what is really important is to keep the discussion at an intelligent and enjoyable level. 

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

But i still have to think twice about some things before i say or write them and i always read things twice aswell just to be sure.

 That's a practice that everyone should adopt, including native speakers. 

It wouldn't be good if non-native English-speakers were discouraged from joining these discussions (there may be some out there right now reading and wondering whether to start posting or not!). Language practice is a totally valid reason to join a forum like this one. Of course, it's a good idea to read the books in the language in which you want to discuss them, but intelligent discussion can clarify misunderstandings that come from translation or the language barrier. All in all, people with different cultural backgrounds can contribute valuable ideas to the discussions, and those who have never tried to read or discuss anything in any language but their own can learn from them, too. 

[Mister Smikes]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:44 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

I'll do this one first as it took a bit of searching to find:  Danaerys grew up in Dorne, because, lemon tree. 

This thread from half a dozen years ago explains it.

The problem with this debunking of the lemon-tree discrepancy is that the debunking has itself been debunked.  Many times. And in recent years by GRRM himself.

@Lost Melniboneanfound an early draft of Dany's chapters from AGOT, pre-published in magazine form under the title THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON.  In it, Dany's city, containing the house with the red door, is referred to not as "Braavos" but as "Tyrosh".  

"Eureka!!", says Lost Melnibonean.  "That explains the lemon tree discrepancy.  The house with the red door was originally in Tyrosh, which is in the south.  GRRM moved the city north but forgot to remove the lemon tree.  Which is an error, and a left-over artifact of his original intention to place Dany's city in the south."  [Disclaimer, not a literal quote but a paraphrase from memory]

Problem is, these guesses are merely guesses.  They do not follow from the evidence.  That GRRM revised his text can only prove that the prior draft was in error, not that the current draft is in error.  Moreover, GRRM merely changed the NAME of the city.  It does not follow from this that he also changed its location.   For all we know, may have been his original plan to place Tyrosh in the north and Braavos (inspired by Venice) in the South.  No discrepancy was apparent in AGOT.  The climate discrepancy did not become apparent until DANCE and certain sample chapters in WINDS, when GRRM gave us maps of the free cities and several quotes which practically shoved the climate discrepancy in our faces.

Moreover, GRRM was asked about the lemon-tree climate discrepancy, and confirmed that the discrepancy was significant and pointed to something significant.

Which does not necessarily prove that the house with the red door is in Dorne.  But at the very least, it debunks the debunking of Lost Melnibonean.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Say, for example I wondered whether a character in a vision was Cotter Pyke and you pointed out to me that he was some other person. What if I had insisted that it was Cotter and kept posting this  over and over again with fanfic despite people providing evidence against and pointing out to me time and again that it wasn’t the case? This is the kind of thing I’m talking about.

Some people come here with questions, other with answers.  You really can't tell the ones with answers much because they've already rationalized out all of the gaps in their theories and will happily point you to their hundreds of pages of 'essays' (read fanfic) as evidence. As Jaenara Belarys suggests above, the mute button is the surest way to navigate sanely. The guy in your example is not going to accept that it isn't Cotter Pyke when he's got this whole mythology built up in his head about how maybe CP wasn't the real CP because he was a faceless man or there was some subtle deception in the wording of the text that only he could decipher, ect. and he'll just get frustrated with you for not slapping your forehead and letting your jaw hit the floor.

To my mind, the value of this site is the collection of observations and references that no one of us would catch alone, but I also get sucked into the theories despite my intentions (I get bored at work a lot and wind up here after I've polluted the hockey boards with hate for the Flames) 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

“He shook his head. “Damn. We’re fighting blind. Every time something happens, there are a dozen reasons that might have been behind it. And every plan we make has to have a dozen alternatives.” -- Men of Greywater Station

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

He also said that there were a few fan theories that were correct but he wasn't worried about it because he didn't think they would be believed.  Or words to that effect. That was early days.   

More recently:

'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories George R.R. Martin Has Shot Down (bustle.com)

George R.R. Martin Admits Some 'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories Are Correct | HuffPost Entertainment

George R.R. Martin Says A Fan Correctly Guessed The Ending Of 'Game of Thrones' (yahoo.com)

 

 

 

 

That always keeps me going haha

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, direpupy said:

I sometimes have that problem myself, i'm Dutch so English is not my first language, i'm lucky in the sence that English is mandatory here in highschool and that my university study was mostly in English because most of the books where and we had international students, my aunt being a English teacher also did not hurt   But i still have to think twice about some things before i say or write them and i always read things twice aswell just to be sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Translating_Beowulf

 A good example of an expert struggling to translate a text. JRR Tolkien himself. 

 

Quote

He notes that a readable translation cannot always translate an Old English word the same way; thus eacen is rendered 'stalwart', 'broad', 'huge', and 'mighty', correctly in each case to fit the context, but losing the clue to the word's special meaning, "not 'large' but 'enlarged'".^[9] The word implies, in fact, supernatural or superhuman power, like Beowulf's gift from God of "thirtyfold strength".^[9] And this is just an example, Tolkien points out, of a minor challenge to the translator.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

I regret ever opening the thread. People liking different aspects etc. is true but the problem is, I don’t even cross the boundaries of fanfic land, I don’t enter those threads that yell “I’m highly crackpottery fanfic” and yet I’m getting exposed to it because of aggressive promotion of the said stuff in many other threads and this becomes bothersome after a while.

edit: as for another question, what counts as debunking, I’ll give an example taht was given to ne on another thread: Ran saying Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys are not the same people should be debunking enough and still insisting on that idea even after that is just an example of what I mean.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I regret ever opening the thread. People liking different aspects etc. is true but the problem is, I don’t even cross the boundaries of fanfic land, I don’t enter those threads that yell “I’m highly crackpottery fanfic” and yet I’m getting exposed to it because of aggressive promotion of the said stuff in many other threads and this becomes bothersome after a while.

Like fb they have options to control what content you can see. Or you can just ignore them

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I regret ever opening the thread. People liking different aspects etc. is true but the problem is, I don’t even cross the boundaries of fanfic land, I don’t enter those threads that yell “I’m highly crackpottery fanfic” and yet I’m getting exposed to it because of aggressive promotion of the said stuff in many other threads and this becomes bothersome after a while.

It is bad form to derail an OP.  A reminder not to do that usually works.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I regret ever opening the thread. People liking different aspects etc. is true but the problem is, I don’t even cross the boundaries of fanfic land, I don’t enter those threads that yell “I’m highly crackpottery fanfic” and yet I’m getting exposed to it because of aggressive promotion of the said stuff in many other threads and this becomes bothersome after a while.

edit: as for another question, what counts as debunking, I’ll give an example taht was given to ne on another thread: Ran saying Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys are not the same people should be debunking enough and still insisting on that idea even after that is just an example of what I mean.

I certainly appreciate you addressing etiquette things and seeking advice or opinion on how to handle things though and now better understand your point and get where you are coming from. I think LynnS has a good point on them derailing. I certainly don't want to discourage you posting though and enjoy your disagreements even on the occasional post  I know ive needed to seek advice on here.

[AlaskanSandman]

23 hours ago, direpupy said:

I sometimes have that problem myself, i'm Dutch so English is not my first language, i'm lucky in the sence that English is mandatory here in highschool and that my university study was mostly in English because most of the books where and we had international students, my aunt being a English teacher also did not hurt   But i still have to think twice about some things before i say or write them and i always read things twice aswell just to be sure.

Just thought id say, another fun translation difference even among English speakers. Getting "pissed". In England, means your drunk and wasted. In the United States, means your just angry. Both of which are slang though and not the words original meaning. Confusion in the same language is possible.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 1/4/2022 at 7:18 AM, LynnS said:

He also said that there were a few fan theories that were correct but he wasn't worried about it because he didn't think they would be believed.  Or words to that effect. That was early days.   

More recently:

'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories George R.R. Martin Has Shot Down (bustle.com)

George R.R. Martin Admits Some 'Game Of Thrones' Fan Theories Are Correct | HuffPost Entertainment

George R.R. Martin Says A Fan Correctly Guessed The Ending Of 'Game of Thrones' (yahoo.com)

 

 

 

 

Wow. Some of those spoiler tags in the reddit with the authors of WoIAF could shut half this site down (if we didn't know that George made them say that to keep people from sussing out the end LOL). I guess I can stop clinging to Bolt-on variations...

Those are really good links.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Wow. Some of those spoiler tags in the reddit with the authors of WoIAF could shut half this site down (if we didn't know that George made them say that to keep people from sussing out the end LOL). I guess I can stop clinging to Bolt-on variations...

Those are really good links.

You still have to take these predictions with a grain of salt and a certain degree of skepticism. They are old and the devil is always in the details.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I regret ever opening the thread.

It's been a good conversation regardless. I'm glad you opened it even though I was one of the early naysayers. I thought those links that LynnS posted were quite the payoff.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Just now, LynnS said:

You still have to take these predictions with a grain of salt and a certain degree of skepticism. They are old and the devil is always in the details.

I was more referring to the debunks in the AMA which was linked from the GRRM debunks fan theories article. 'no, Tywin Lannister wasn't poisoned' for example. 

[HoodedCrow]

In praise of speculation…The more crackpot ideas can test your plausibility meter over and over,( mentally you can accept or reject) or make you laugh. Reading Seams is like reading keen poems, teeming with memes. . I have a hard time looking at the structure, if I’m taken with the contents of the narrative, so Seams takes you through various enjoyable literary analysis and word play. Megarova looks at genealogical possibilities, reinforcing that way of seeing, even though some of the details are not quite right( nobody has all the details, right). I also enjoy her takes on some of the imagery, like cat people. We can choose to. Click on links, if we wish to take what people have offered.

[Mister Smikes]

22 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I don't think "debunking" will change a person's fundamental reading of a book

Arguments can and do change people's minds.  But complaining about those who refuse to surrender their opinions is less effective. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

edit: as for another question, what counts as debunking, I’ll give an example taht was given to ne on another thread: Ran saying Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys are not the same people should be debunking enough and still insisting on that idea even after that is just an example of what I mean.

Ran is not GRRM.  People are allowed to disagree with him.

GRRM saying Larra and Serenei are not the same people should be debunking enough.  If Ran claims to have inside info from GRRM himself, I am happy to trust him.  But if Ran is making no such claim, no-one need defer to his authority.

That said, I have no opinion on the Larra/Serenei question posed because I have never given it any thought.  Maybe there are other reasons to debunk it.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Ran is not GRRM.  People are allowed to disagree with him.

My world book says Ran is one of it's authors.

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Which does not necessarily prove that the house with the red door is in Dorne.  But at the very least, it debunks the debunking of Lost Melnibonean.

Yea, I never really understood his point there.  Martin didn't start highlighting the problems with Dany's memories of the lemon tree until ASOS.  He then confirms that Dany's memories of the lemon tree is inconsistent with what we learn about Braavos' climate.  The decision to go in this direction is clearly independant of GRRM's decision to change Dany's initial dwelling from Tyrosh to Braavos.  After all, he could have merely decided not to make Braavos' climate so inhospitable to citrus.

[Mister Smikes]

35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My world book says Ran is one of it's authors.

If the text of the WORLD BOOK debunks the theory, then that should be your argument.

If your idea is that Ran is an "author" and therefore everything he says is canon in GRRM's universe, then I disagree.  If the WORLD BOOK text can be considered canon, it is because GRRM reviewed and approved those parts he did not write directly, and not because anything Elio and Linda says is per se canon.  

I know that Elio & Linda are also on record as strongly opposing the "Quentyn is Alive" theory, a theory I endorse.  But since they do not claim to speak for GRRM, I still feel some confidence in the theory.  And of course, they are always free to try to win the argument by getting GRRM to make a statement on the issue.  Until then, they are entitled to their opinions, and I am entitled to mine.