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Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory


Crona

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im actually totally for it most times lol but I get nipped anytime I get too joustful haha Honestly, the board confuses me sometimes. A good witty or sarcastic response though using clues from the books is great, one using someones spelling, grammar, or such, especially when dealing with people from multiple countries. Seems underhanded I guess. Im certainly not upset though or walking a way with anything negative :) 

I personally don't like the idea of too much time tampering and don't like most time travel stories. Though it's not my story so Idk what GRRM will do. I didn't expect Hold the Door to begin with, if that's at all anything book related. It is a little gimmicky too in my mind, in a world with out much gimmicky stuff. 

Good stuff, mate. My bad. I'd never ever make fun of someone's grammar and have certainly went to great pains in my time to discuss with people whose first language isn't English as we are all equal here.

Maybe just the warging comment triggered a knee jerk reaction; I'm human. I just see Warg as its literal term and use it so; I'm well aware it's not for everyone though :fencing:Joust over, for now.

I think we will be stuck with Hold the Door and have to make the most of it. What I'm very interested in though, is how exactly GRRM writes it. Then after that, I expect Bran's actions through time may be less frequent as he gets spooked by that one, or perhaps another, more serious one...

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Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

You told me how a sweet little boy like Bran could have a commanding voice, and I countered with the fact that Lyanna is a fully-developed and fierce woman who has already been described as roaring; and how she could just as easily adapt the tone of her voice to sound deep and from atop her horse and inside a helm, hell yes it could boom. Don't doubt it for a second.

Lyanna is not a fully developed woman...she is a teenager. I don't know why you keep referring to a teenager as full developed woman. The roaring is when she and the Starks are described as wolves, like I said you can't say a wolf yelled, it would have to be roaring or howling.  Her voice could be louder and deeper, it would still be a feminine voice, that I am sure many of the attendants would recognize as a woman and I am sure that a few attendants heard her when she "roared."

 

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

In fact, I'll bet if Lyanna and Howland were to both dress exactly the same, with the same helm and atop similar horses, and then have a contest to address a crowd with a commanding, booming voice -- Lyanna would get the better result.

 

Fanfiction and I am certain Howland would have a more booming voice

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

 

No, instead we get Meera offer the idea it was her father, to which Jojen instantly pours water over that notion. Instantly.  

I ask this because when the story is presented, Meera, Jojen and Bran do not know the identity. Jojen doesn't know either, he just says "or not.". But I ask you, what why would he tell his kids this story withhold Lyanna's identity? Lyanna and Rhaegar were already known to run off, what difference would it make if Jojen, Meera and even Bran to know Lyanna was KOLT?

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9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Good stuff, mate. My bad. I'd never ever make fun of someone's grammar and have certainly went to great pains in my time to discuss with people whose first language isn't English as we are all equal here.

Maybe just the warging comment triggered a knee jerk reaction; I'm human. I just see Warg as its literal term and use it so; I'm well aware it's not for everyone though :fencing:Joust over, for now.

I think we will be stuck with Hold the Door and have to make the most of it. What I'm very interested in though, is how exactly GRRM writes it. Then after that, I expect Bran's actions through time may be less frequent as he gets spooked by that one, or perhaps another, more serious one...

Skol!

Martin does have scifi books that use time, and seems to use the idea of exiting your body and traveling through time as a means of preventing the grandfather paradox to some extent. As your physical body never went back in time. Still not flawless though, as he could still kill his ancestor and himself in the process of tampering. I hate time travel.

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41 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I tend to think of them more as an Interstellar-type Tesseract. Subtle actions through gravity can prompt a reaction in any time as the Tesseract operates with time as a dimension that us simple human beings will never fathom. Weirwoods are the same.

A powerful greenseer though, they can operate within this complicated time dimension; and as we've seen with Bran and will see more of, he can actually make his mark across time, literally his action causing a reaction in any time, regardless of if he was even alive at that "time". He was always the cause. One timeline, never changed.

We're not supposed to understand it, ever. Our future generations will, but we won't. It's why people still discuss the first Terminator movie, and why people are in awe of Interstellar.

GRRM is working within that shock factor element. He wants us scratching our heads and discussing forever. He's actually well on his way to achieving that as here we all are... 

I prefer tardis, cause it reminds me of trees more. Especially being a wooden box and all and being hollow, you can get in like getting in a Weirwood.

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5 minutes ago, Crona said:

Lyanna is not a fully developed woman...she is a teenager. I don't know why you keep referring to a teenager as full developed woman.

A fierce, teenage she-wolf is a formidable thing. Everything written about this girl notes that she she is strong, well trained, mature and well on her way to being a powerful woman. How much more developed do you think Lyanna needs to be to be able to change the tone of her voice within her helm for a brief time?

If we go by your logic. You say Aerys thinks it was Jaime. What do you think Howland sounded like to prompt this thought, hmmm? You think he sounded like a teenage Jaime?

No, he likely just sounded like a person with a booming voice from inside a helm, and if you think a teenage girl can't change the tone of her voice to sound booming, then I simply cannot help you and you will never, ever let go of the idea that Bran skinchanged Howland for the day at Harrenhal. It's a free world. But, I will look back to check with you if it's ever officially debunked or confirmed to see our mindset once the dust is settled.

Remember this though, if GRRM wants the KotLT to be Lyanna, then you can be sure that this fierce teenage she-wolf can boom and you'd simply have to accept that.

14 minutes ago, Crona said:

Fanfiction and I am certain Howland would have a more booming voice

:fencing:we could duel on that, but let's not eh...

15 minutes ago, Crona said:

I ask this because when the story is presented, Meera, Jojen and Bran do not know the identity. Jojen doesn't know either, he just says "or not.". But I ask you, what why would he tell his kids this story withhold Lyanna's identity? Lyanna and Rhaegar were already known to run off, what difference would it make if Jojen, Meera and even Bran to know Lyanna was KOLT?

And I asked you, since this is your theory and it is firmly on you to defend YOUR theory here. If Howland was skinchanged by the old gods to be a hero knight for a day and unhorse three knights, why wouldn't HE tell his kids that? Could you imagine that happened to you, wouldn't you tell your kids that?

Now, let's be sensible for a minute. GRRM withholds the identity because HE wants us to discuss and try to figure out the intricate threads of story he has placed concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna's encounters and adventures, as because, well, they form one the most important foundations of the WHOLE story and he can't just have Meera blurt out the whole story while shooting the breeze with Bran can he?

 

 

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9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I hate time travel.

You mock the Tardis, but it's not an accurate description of Bran's state of being.  

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

 

Past, present and future become one state rather than only flowing from past to future.  Time Lords travel from past to future and reverse.  Time is not experienced as one state. Bloodraven may only be able to gaze at the past whereas Bran may surpass him using these gates.

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14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Skol!

Martin does have scifi books that use time, and seems to use the idea of exiting your body and traveling through time as a means of preventing the grandfather paradox to some extent. As your physical body never went back in time. Still not flawless though, as he could still kill his ancestor and himself in the process of tampering. I hate time travel.

I feel ya, man. These are the breaks though and we must accept it. Bran is tied to a magical power that allows him to operate out with the strictures of time.

Done deftly and tastefully though, of course it can be done well. I quite enjoy it, even if it does never ever feel resolved, quite like the Terminator 1 scenario, or Interstellar, as just a couple examples I previously used.

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Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

I feel ya, man. These are the breaks though and we must accept it. Bran is tied to a magical power that allows him to operate out with the strictures of time.

Done deftly and tastefully though, of course it can be done well. I quite enjoy it, even if it does never ever feel resolved, quite like the Terminator 1 scenario, or Interstellar, as just a couple examples I previously used.

That is a good point on it being able to be done well still like the Terminator. Though, first one, they started messing with it in 2 and the rest. Though T2 is still awesome. Its a slippery slope so I hope GRRM keeps it limited. If Bran does anything with his powers, I want to see him take a dragon and fly.

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You mock the Tardis, but it's not an accurate description of Bran's state of being.  

Past, present and future become one state rather than only flowing from past to future.  Time Lords travel from past to future and reverse.  Time is not experienced as one state. Bloodraven may only be able to gaze at the past whereas Bran may surpass him using these gates.

Lol I would never mock the Tardis

I agree that Bran may be able to see forward and that time only travels one direction from a pov. That pov though can change though by exiting your body

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Past, present and future become one state rather than only flowing from past to future.  Time Lords travel from past to future and reverse.  Time is not experienced as one state. Bloodraven may only be able to gaze at the past whereas Bran may surpass him using these gates.

I think it's a case for us as readers, of letting and simply saying, okay, I'm not going to understand this, but I'll embrace it.

This form of moving through different era's of "time", is way too complex for us to understand anyway.

We must stick to the text, which states that past, present and future are all one to the trees and therefore greenseers who become wed to them can operate within these strictures. Possibly, the more powerful the greenseer, the more he can navigate the dimension of time more freely.

What I think is concrete within the story though, is that everything is set. The ink is dry. NOTHING Bran does can ever change anything in the past, and any time he seeks to do so, he will simply find himself the cause of said event.

It's now a case of how heavy GRRM goes with the amount of events he has Bran visit to meddle with, and how long before Bran decides enough is enough and wants to return home. 

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol I would never mock the Tardis

I agree that Bran may be able to see forward and that time only travels one direction from a pov. That pov though can change though by exiting your body

The point is that Bran doesn't experience time in one direction.  The past, present and future exist simultaneously for him. That's not the same as a tardis.  The wierwood are gateways or doorways.

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39 minutes ago, Crona said:

Lyanna is not a fully developed woman...she is a teenager. I don't know why you keep referring to a teenager as full developed woman. The roaring is when she and the Starks are described as wolves, like I said you can't say a wolf yelled, it would have to be roaring or howling.  Her voice could be louder and deeper, it would still be a feminine voice, that I am sure many of the attendants would recognize as a woman and I am sure that a few attendants heard her when she "roared."

The booming voice vs Lyanna being a teenager girl was never a problem for me believe she may be the Knight of the laughing three. In this regard, I've always speculated that Lyanna had a naturally deep voice that the helmet amplified. Women commonly have softer, sweeter voices than men, but this is not always the case. Some women have such deep voices that they are easily mistaken for men on the phone or in other situations.

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4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That is a good point on it being able to be done well still like the Terminator. Though, first one, they started messing with it in 2 and the rest. Though T2 is still awesome. Its a slippery slope so I hope GRRM keeps it limited. If Bran does anything with his powers, I want to see him take a dragon and fly.

First and second films are magic.

It had the desired effect. People still discuss the way the time element messed with their minds. GRRM is doing it to us.

In fact, there is only one timeline for us and some time in the future, me and you will likely discuss the time element of ASOIAF again. That time is set out there, believe that, we just haven't caught up to it yet as mere mortal humans.

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1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

A fierce, teenage she-wolf is a formidable thing. Everything written about this girl notes that she she is strong, well trained, mature and well on her way to being a powerful woman. How much more developed do you think Lyanna needs to be to be able to change the tone of her voice within her helm for a brief time?

 

Your voice can't change that easily enough for people to mistaken you as a boy. Especially a boy after puberty, she would have needed to have a deeper voice similar to a male's voice. We do not have anything in the text that said she had a deep voice or sounded similar to a male voice. She would also need to train her voice to sound more masculine. I just think this is a big whole in the theory. If GRRM wanted it to be Lyanna, he could have said that it was high voice or something more similar. 

 

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

If we go by your logic. You say Aerys thinks it was Jaime. What do you think Howland sounded like to prompt this thought, hmmm? You think he sounded like a teenage Jaime?

 

I find that Howland would sound closer to teenage Jaime, yes. Remember Jaime had already passed puberty at this time. 

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

No, he likely just sounded like a person with a booming voice from inside a helm, and if you think a teenage girl can't change the tone of her voice to sound booming, then I simply cannot help you and you will never, ever let go of the idea that Bran skinchanged Howland for the day at Harrenhal. It's a free world. But, I will look back to check with you if it's ever officially debunked or confirmed to see our mindset once the dust is settled.

 

I have been around girls all my life and I know quite a few them who have deep voices. Never will I ever think they sound like a boy who has reached puberty (in person):

Before a boy reaches puberty, his larynx is pretty small and his vocal cords are kind of small and thin. That's why his voice is higher than an adult's. But as he goes through puberty, the larynx gets bigger and the vocal cords grow longer and become thicker.

11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

And I asked you, since this is your theory and it is firmly on you to defend YOUR theory here. If Howland was skinchanged by the old gods to be a hero knight for a day and unhorse three knights, why wouldn't HE tell his kids that? Could you imagine that happened to you, wouldn't you tell your kids that?

Now, let's be sensible for a minute. GRRM withholds the identity because HE wants us to discuss and try to figure out the intricate threads of story he has placed concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna's encounters and adventures, as because, well, they form one the most important foundations of the WHOLE story and he can't just have Meera blurt out the whole story while shooting the breeze with Bran can he?

 

 

So there is a reason why Howland would keep the truth from his kids, because he didn't actually do it and he didn't want his kids to freak out or freak Bran out. 

So the thing is, you are making this about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't see the story wholly about these two and I don't think GRRM puts information in his novels just for the reader, its for the character. There is something here for Bran to know, not just the readers. That is why I asked what is the purpose of withholding her identify

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Past, present and future become one state rather than only flowing from past to future.  Time Lords travel from past to future and reverse.  Time is not experienced as one state. Bloodraven may only be able to gaze at the past whereas Bran may surpass him using these gates.

I think he just means that looking through Weirwood eyes is like trying to find something in a booklet with pages glued together randomly and lacks an index. He even says "gaze" at the end. Gaze, and nothing else.

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3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What I think is concrete within the story though, is that everything is set. The ink is dry. NOTHING Bran does can ever change anything in the past, and any time he seeks to do so, he will simply find himself the cause of said event.

I agree.  We are talking about closed time loops.  Bran cannot speak to Ned because he is dead but he can speak to Howland who is still alive in this story.  When Bran evolves to the point of breaching the time barrier he is able to communicate with Howland.  I think we have already seen this occur with Tree-Bran at the Skirling Pass communicating with Jon.  So Bran does not change the past at Harrenhall. he was actually there.

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The point is that Bran doesn't experience time in one direction.  The past, present and future exist simultaneously for him. That's not the same as a tardis.  The wierwood are gateways or doorways.

Yea but Bran still has to exit his body to do it

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think he just means that looking through Weirwood eyes is like trying to find something in a booklet with pages glued together randomly and lacks an index. He even says "gaze" at the end. Gaze, and nothing else.

I think BR is limited in his powers compared to what Bran will become.

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3 minutes ago, Odej said:

The booming voice vs Lyanna being a teenager girl was never a problem for me believe she may be the Knight of the laughing three. In this regard, I've always speculated that Lyanna had a naturally deep voice that the helmet amplified. Women commonly have softer, sweeter voices than men, but this is not always the case. Some women have such deep voices that they are easily mistaken for men on the phone or in other situations.

We have no textual evidence that Lyanna has a deeper voice, and this was done in person, not over a phone. Phones often distort voices. 

 
As the body goes through puberty, the larynx (or voice box) grows larger and thicker. It happens in both boys and girls, but the change is more obvious in boys. Girls' voices only deepen by a couple of tones and the change is barely noticeable. Boys' voices, though, start to get much deeper.
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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea but Bran still has to exit his body to do it

Then I think you should look at what happens between Bran and Hodor when they are attacked by wights at BR's cave.  This isn't your typical skinchanging scenario.  

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