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Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory


Crona

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5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

First and second films are magic.

It had the desired effect. People still discuss the way the time element messed with their minds. GRRM is doing it to us.

In fact, there is only one timeline for us and some time in the future, me and you will likely discuss the time element of ASOIAF again. That time is set out there, believe that, we just haven't caught up to it yet as mere mortal humans.

I still like to imagine that the Jon who sent his father back, is not the Jon that grew up knowing about Terminators. So he never changed time per se, but merely traveled to a different timeline. Cause otherwise, skynet was destroyed after sending Reese through in first movie. So no way they couldn't sent a T1000 right after him. This is where time travel always gets wonky.

I still question whether Bran will end up on the Throne and master of all. If he does, then it would suggest him manipulating time and other things. Bran on the Throne seems wrong to me though

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I agree.  We are talking about closed time loops.  Bran cannot speak to Ned because he is dead but he can speak to Howland who is still alive in this story.  When Bran evolves to the point of breaching the time barrier he is able to communicate with Howland.  I think we have already seen this occur with Tree-Bran at the Skirling Pass communicating with Jon.  So Bran does not change the past at Harrenhall. he was actually there.

Yes that is what I meant. I think I got confused in this thread. So the weirwood are not actually past, or the future, it just he appears. I used the past to make it more easier to read but many have taken this literal. But yes, he's not changing the past in Harrenhal, he is just there lol

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Then I think you should look at what happens between Bran and Hodor when they are attacked by wights at BR's cave.  This isn't your typical skinchanging scenario.  

I thought we were talking time travel, not just his ability to take control of someone.

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2 minutes ago, Crona said:

If GRRM wanted it to be Lyanna, he could have said that it was high voice or something more similar. 

Yeah, and just give the game away completely with absolutely no need for discussion among his book fans, cos that's his style. No, he writes a certain way to give enough leeway for us all to joust back and forth like we're doing here.

I see you're talking about puberty and larynx etc. and for my part, you're losing your way completely here. The story is to be discussed and enjoyed, not analyzed with your own view on genetic makeups and human bodies to back up a theory. It's like when fans use distance and timescale to back up their theories; GRRM has clearly stated that such fans should pack away their rulers and stop clocks, and just enjoy the story.

It's as simple as this. If GRRM has Lyanna as the Kinght, her voice boomed, regardless of how you percieve the human body's makeup.

And, if Howland was the Knight, he boomed too.

You think Bran skinchanged Howland and won't budge, and that's great, however contradicting it is to GRRM's own words on the story. You've enjoyed a hot topic most of the day. It's a good buzz isn't it? I'll never be onside with that for every single textual based reason I have gave you. We can exist in the same space though, yes? Agree to disagree.

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

So the thing is, you are making this about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Harrenhal IS about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Picture this. Your chilling with your friends or family. Everybody is silent. All of a sudden someone says "The Tourney at Harrenhal". What would you ultimately think of after the cascade of images that floated through your head; what conclusion would your mind come to. What final image, outcome or characters would come to mind when your mind processed everything properly?

It's Rhaegar and Lyanna is it. Him entering the lists and crowning her QOLAB. So, yeah, they're kind of a big deal. 

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So Bran does not change the past at Harrenhall. he was actually there.

As Howland, for the day, defeating Knights in Tourney. I just can't buy it. But It's great to find agreement on the time element. It's the only way it will work in this story.

We basically disagree on the level of Bran's influence, and that's healthy enough.

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5 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yes that is what I meant. I think I got confused in this thread. So the weirwood are not actually past, or the future, it just he appears. I used the past to make it more easier to read but many have taken this literal. But yes, he's not changing the past in Harrenhal, he is just there lol

On the question of why Rhaegar entered the lists...

Well the Tree Knight showed up and admonished Aerys' knights for lacking in honor which infuriated Aerys.  He lost face and Rhaegar must win the tourney to restore it.

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19 minutes ago, Crona said:

We have no textual evidence that Lyanna has a deeper voice, and this was done in person, not over a phone.

Exactly. So since we have no description of what Lyanna's voice was like, speculating that she had a deep voice is not inconsistent. It's a possibility.

 

19 minutes ago, Crona said:

Phones often distort voices. 

Also helmets.

 

19 minutes ago, Crona said:

Girls' voices only deepen by a couple of tones and the change is barely noticeable. Boys' voices, though, start to get much deeper.

Boys can also have sweeter and softer voices than usual. And since people usually see what they want to see, those watching the tourney might just think the knight of the laughing three was a guy with a softer voice as to imagine it was a girl in disguise, what would be out of their minds.

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1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

As Howland, for the day, defeating Knights in Tourney. I just can't buy it. But It's great to find agreement on the time element. It's the only way it will work in this story.

We basically disagree on the level of Bran's influence, and that's healthy enough.

OK.  That's fine.  

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

On the question of why Rhaegar entered the lists...

Well the Tree Knight showed up and admonished Aerys' knights for lacking in honor which infuriated Aerys.  He lost face and Rhaegar must win the tourney to restore it.

If that's the reason, why crown Lyanna?

If that's the only reason, crown your wife after winning, not the she-wolf.

Unless, you exposed the she-wolf as the knight, and now you simply MUST win it to bathe her in deserved glory and send her a distinct message.

 

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3 minutes ago, Odej said:

Exactly. So since we have no description of what Lyanna's voice was like, speculating that she had a deep voice is not inconsistent. It's a possibility.

 

Also helmets.

 

Boys can also have sweet and soft voices than usual. And since people usually see what they want to see, those watching the tourney might just think the knight of the laughing three was a guy with a softer voice as to imagine it was a girl in disguise, what would out of their minds.

You talk much sense.

Like it, I do.

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Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I see you're talking about puberty and larynx etc. and for my part, you're losing your way completely here. The story is to be discussed and enjoyed, not analyzed with your own view on genetic makeups and human bodies to back up a theory. It's like when fans use distance and timescale to back up their theories; GRRM has clearly stated that such fans should pack away their rulers and stop clocks, and just enjoy the story.

I

First of all, Jaime is 16 years old at this time, you think a 16 year old Jaime can sound like Lyanna? Also, voices are not that hard to understand in fiction, usually people grow up and they understand the difference between voices. I just think that Lyanna being KOLT has a big hole due to the voice. I have yet to see anything that says Lyanna has a deep voice. That is it.

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

.

Harrenhal IS about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Picture this. Your chilling with your friends or family. Everybody is silent. All of a sudden someone says "The Tourney at Harrenhal". What would you ultimately think of after the cascade of images that floated through your head; what conclusion would your mind come to. What final image, outcome or characters would come to mind when your mind processed everything properly?

It's Rhaegar and Lyanna is it. Him entering the lists and crowning her QOLAB. So, yeah, they're kind of a big deal. 

 I don't think of Harrenhal like that, the first thing that will pop up is that crannogman swimming over there. 

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19 minutes ago, Crona said:

We have no textual evidence that Lyanna has a deeper voice, and this was done in person, not over a phone. Phones often distort voices. 

 
As the body goes through puberty, the larynx (or voice box) grows larger and thicker. It happens in both boys and girls, but the change is more obvious in boys. Girls' voices only deepen by a couple of tones and the change is barely noticeable. Boys' voices, though, start to get much deeper.

To play devils advocate

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn II

"Approach," King Renly called to the champion.

He limped toward the gallery. At close hand, the brilliant blue armor looked rather less splendid; everywhere it showed scars, the dents of mace and warhammer, the long gouges left by swords, chips in the enameled breastplate and helm. His cloak hung in rags. From the way he moved, the man within was no less battered. A few voices hailed him with cries of "Tarth!" and, oddly, "A Beauty! A Beauty!" but most were silent. The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

"You are all your lord father claimed you were." Renly's voice carried over the field. "I've seen Ser Loras unhorsed once or twice . . . but never quite in that fashion."

 

Cat can't tell that the person wearing the armor and speaking, isn't a "he" or "Him". Though this isn't a booming voice, it does give some credence to Lyanna pulling it off. Though, Brienne isn't built like Lyanna.

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2 minutes ago, Crona said:

I have yet to see anything that says Lyanna has a deep voice. That is it.

And nothing to say she didn't. She doesn't even have to have a naturally deep voice to boom within a helm anyway. Sorry, but if you can't accept that, I can only surmise it's possibly stubbornness on your part. No disrespect intended, just an honest perspective.

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

I don't think of Harrenhal like that, the first thing that will pop up is that crannogman swimming over there. 

Had a feeling you'd say that :D. I asked what your final conclusion would be though, not the first.

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9 minutes ago, Odej said:

Exactly. So since we have no description of what Lyanna's voice was like, speculating that she had a deep voice is not inconsistent. It's a possibility.

 

It is speculation, the type of speculation that I don't really buy considering its not said she had a deeper voice. 

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1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If that's the reason, why crown Lyanna?

If that's the only reason, crown your wife after winning, not the she-wolf.

Unless, you exposed the she-wolf as the knight, and now you simply MUST win it to bathe her in deserved glory and send her a distinct message.

 

Well, this is the problem.  It depends on one's assumptions about what is motivating Rhaegar.  The prophecy and romance narrative is firmly entrenched.  However, I'm not so sure that I buy that either.  We are told that Rhaegar did not discover the identity of the Tree Knight, but it would be obvious, through his investigation, that the offending squires were confronted by Lyanna and the Tree Knight is her champion.

The fact that Martin is using the winter rose/hellibore, a poisonous plant, for the champion's crown puts a big question mark beside the meaning of this gesture.  It sounds more political than romantic to me and it sounds more like a warning than admiration..

 

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To play devils advocate

Cat can't tell that the person wearing the armor and speaking, isn't a "he" or "Him". Though this isn't a booming voice, it does give some credence to Lyanna pulling it off. Though, Brienne isn't built like Lyanna.

Nicely put.

Because Cat is new to the scene and doesn't know Brienne entered, she expects a man and attributes WHATEVER voice exits the helm to come from a man, as they would at Harrenhal.

It's a sexist environment GRRM has given us, I'm afraid.

 

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2 minutes ago, Crona said:

It is speculation, the type of speculation that I don't really buy considering its not said she had a deeper voice. 

But if it was said she had a deep voice we wouldn't have to speculate at all, 'cause would be a fact. Speculating is trying to guess what has not been said.

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3 minutes ago, Crona said:

It is speculation, the type of speculation that I don't really buy considering its not said she had a deeper voice. 

There is the business of Bran shouting at Jon at the Skirling Pass and Hodor's bellowing at BR's cave.  It seems more likely to me that Howland was the Tree Knight, that he is more likely to be 'closer' to the old gods than Lyanna and have more reason to defend his own honor.

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4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To play devils advocate

Cat can't tell that the person wearing the armor and speaking, isn't a "he" or "Him". Though this isn't a booming voice, it does give some credence to Lyanna pulling it off. Though, Brienne isn't built like Lyanna.

That is actually a really good quote. I still am stickler for the voice especially when its a speaking louder "booming" and not muffled. Its one of those things that will always bother me with the Lyanna KOTL theory. 

 

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And nothing to say she didn't. She doesn't even have to have a naturally deep voice to boom within a helm anyway. Sorry, but if you can't accept that, I can only surmise it's possibly stubbornness on your part. No disrespect intended, just an honest perspective.

Had a feeling you'd say that :D. I asked what your final conclusion would be though, not the first.

Until it is confirmed then I could buy it but I just can't get over the tone of voice. The larynx does not lie. Although I guess I wouldn't put it pass GRRM since he made Tyrion complete flips. Of course I do see Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, but I am really thinking how much of a douche he is to wife, so I'm thinking of his wife, Elia. 

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, this is the problem.  It depends on one's assumptions about what is motivating Rhaegar.  The prophecy and romance narrative is firmly entrenched.  However, I'm not so sure that I buy that either.  We are told that Rhaegar did not discover the identity of the Tree Knight, but it would be obvious, through his investigation, that the offending squires were confronted by Lyanna and the Tree Knight is her champion.

The fact that Martin is using the winter rose/hellibore, a poisonous plant, for the champion's crown puts a big question mark beside the meaning of this gesture.  It sounds more political than romantic to me and it sounds more like a warning than admiration..

 

I'm not sure it's a problem to be honest. After so much time waiting for a book, we simply have so many looks at the topic from so many angles, that over time, the truth of the matter becomes so lost in all the theories that it gets to be a total mess.

It's not an assumption Rhaegar was motivated by Prophecy, it was the man's life. Literally. Even above all the political stuff, this bookish lad was completely devoted to the TPTWP Prophecy.

And the romantic narrative, if I'm not mistaken I do believe his dying words were Lyanna, so he must have cared for the girl. I'm sure it was in the app and I'm sure there's an interview where GRRM comments confirmation on it too if it can be produced as evidence in this court of law:).

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