Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Cat can't tell that the person wearing the armor and speaking, isn't a "he" or "Him". Though this isn't a booming voice, it does give some credence to Lyanna pulling it off. Though, Brienne isn't built like Lyanna.

Correct.  Brienne is over 6 feet tall and there is a huge physical difference between Brienne and Lyanna.  It's just as feasible that Howland's voice is amplified by the greathelm as it is for Lyanna's.  I don't think it proves anything. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

Of course I do see Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, but I am really thinking how much of a douche he is to wife, so I'm thinking of his wife, Elia. 

Exactly. There is more to this and I believe it is because he exposed her as the KotLT and was effected by her character and moved to action.

Now, whether that is because he views her as a possible mate; mother of a child; someone who he has fallen in love with genuinely, or whether he simply sees her as deserving of the crown for having the balls to enter and the ability to defeat three knights. 

Could be all those together. If it is in any way prophecy-related, then sorry Elia, Rhaegar will do anything to fulfill this prophecy. It has been his life's research and interest.

[Crona]

54 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

What I think is concrete within the story though, is that everything is set. The ink is dry. NOTHING Bran does can ever change anything in the past, and any time he seeks to do so, he will simply find himself the cause of said event.

 

This is what I meant in my OP, I had only said that Bran affected the past to make it easier to understand for people. I don't know why you kept on saying that I was talking about time travel all the time. I only said that he did once, and he's not able to do it again. Why he's not able to, I don't know. But he can't affect anything NOW.

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not sure it's a problem to be honest. After so much time waiting for a book, we simply have so many looks at the topic from so many angles, that over time, the truth of the matter becomes so lost in all the theories that it gets to be a total mess.

It's not an assumption Rhaegar was motivated by Prophecy, it was the man's life. Literally. Even above all the political stuff, this bookish lad was completely devoted to the TPTWP Prophecy.

And the romantic narrative, if I'm not mistaken I do believe his dying words were Lyanna, so he must have cared for the girl. I'm sure it was in the app and I'm sure there's an interview where GRRM comments confirmation on it too if it can be produced as evidence in this court of law.

No, we don't know the woman's name.  It's assumed to be Lyanna but it could have been Elia knowing that she would now be in danger for her life.

I agree that prophecy is a big part of Rhaegar's story.  This goes to the HoU vision where he talks about Aegon's song of ice and fire and the dragon having three heads and needing one more.  I think he wanted another daughter to fill out his trio of Aegon, Rhaenys and the missing Visenya for his trio of dragon heads.

Yes, he is obsessed with prophecy but he also has to deal with the politics of the GoT.  The power the Targs had that came with dragons is gone and that makes them vulnerable.  I'm not sure that he sees Lyanna having anything to do with the return of dragons or providing the TPWIP, since he already believes Aegon is the promised one.  

I think falling upon Lyanna and taking her had more to do with stopping any alliance between the Starks and the Baratheons as well as giving him a powerful bargaining chip.  We already saw Aerys remove Jaime as a bargaining chip for Tywin to use in building alliances against him.  Killing Brandon stops the alliance between House Tully and House Stark.  Aerys kills Rickard Stark and means to finish the job by insisting that Jon Arryn turn over his wards.  This all backfires. 

[Crona]

12 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Exactly. There is more to this and I believe it is because he exposed her as the KotLT and was effected by her character and moved to action.

Now, whether that is because he views her as a possible mate; mother of a child; someone who he has fallen in love with genuinely, or whether he simply sees her as deserving of the crown for having the balls to enter and the ability to defeat three knights. 

Could be all those together. If it is in any way prophecy-related, then sorry Elia, Rhaegar will do anything to fulfill this prophecy. It has been his life's research and interest.

Rhaegar is in his 20s and has a kid and has another one on the way. Nothing in the text suggests Rhaegar is irresponsible enough or immature enough to fall in love with a teenager during a tourney especially crowning her right in front of your wife and her family. I don't even think prophecy would be enough motivation to do that. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think there was something else going on.

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, we don't know the woman's name.  It's assumed to be Lyanna but it could have been Elia knowing that she would now be in danger for her life.

 

I think Elia also said a name when she was dying, could it have been Rhaegar? 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Nicely put.

Because Cat is new to the scene and doesn't know Brienne entered, she expects a man and attributes WHATEVER voice exits the helm to come from a man, as they would at Harrenhal.

It's a sexist environment GRRM has given us, I'm afraid.

 

Its definitely a fact worth mentioning and considering. Im still not fully sold on Lyanna though myself, but I keep the option open.

Sansa was kidnapped by Peter Bael(ish) of Braavos. Which makes me think of the "Titan's bastard", and makes me wonder if Peter is a bastard, as he names his bastard daughter Alyane after his mother. As Abel-Bael-Mance Rayder is a bastard likely born at White Tree as Crastor was, and has the probability of being the Black Brother at Harrenhal. Has as much reason or more in my mind to be the Knight of the "Laughing Tree". As the Tree at White Tree as a giant gaping mouth.

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

Whitetree, Sam thought. Please, let this be Whitetree. He remembered Whitetree. Whitetree was on the maps he'd drawn, on their way north. If this village was Whitetree, he knew where they were. Please, it has to be. He wanted that so badly that he forgot his feet for a little bit, he forgot the ache in his calves and his lower back and the stiff frozen fingers he could scarcely feel. He even forgot about Lord Mormont and Craster and the wights and the Others. Whitetree, Sam prayed, to any god that might be listening.

All wildling villages looked much alike, though. A huge weirwood grew in the center of this one . . . but a white tree did not mean Whitetree, necessarily. Hadn't the weirwood at Whitetree been bigger than this one? Maybe he was remembering it wrong. The face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes. Was that how it looked when we came north? Sam couldn't recall.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

 

 

 

The Tree at WhiteTree has a large gaping mouth, which could be a large laughing tree. Jon never says what was so disturbing about the face aside from the size of the mouth. We're never told if the laughing tree was evil laughing or happy laughing. 

 

Mance is Bael/Abel, and born likely at White Tree. Was in the Watch and a Blackbrother, being possibly the bastard son of L.C. Qhorgyle. With Oberyn fostering with the Qhorgyles in his youth. He is also a bard.

Baelish seems to be copying all these pieces to an extant. Except Varys takes Arya through Yoren, while Baelish takes Sansa through Dontos. Arya is faked with Jeyne Poole who gets raped by Aerys. Makes me think of Ashara standing in for Rhaella and getting raped by Aerys, and that Jamie saw the stand-in for what they wanted. Ashara in a silver wig may look like Rhaella from a distance.

With Arya having plots that seem similar to Ashara Dayne, Sansa's seem like they match those of Lyanna Stark. The Stark Queen of love and Beauty given a rose, and stolen by some one else. Which matches Maris the made being stolen by Uthor of the Hightower, from Argoth Stone Skin who won her in the first tourney. Maris is aunt to Bran the Builder who fought and won the Long Night. So the Watch is somehow connected to the Myth and bride theft.
The Legend of Bael the Bard happens near possible Tourney's too, either the one before conquest with Loreon II Lannister after Andal Invasion. Or the 3 during the reign of Jaehaerys. 

 

Though Varys and Baelish could both be trying for the same thing. Yoren was in K.L. when Hands Tourney was happening roughly. Or both Stark girls give us an idea of what Lyanna was up to. Neither Stark girls appear as mystery knights though, but Arya is mistaken for a boy quite often.

 

Im still hashing out the details but I don't see Rhaegar taking Lyanna, and I Mance makes a better candidate for the Mystery Knight.

The Booming Voice though can't be the only crutch though to the identity. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Quote

"There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone."

"Tell me, then—when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? 'Go forth and kill the weak'? Or 'Go forth and defend them'? At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners—did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar's cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?" Dany turned to Mormont, crossed her arms, and waited for an answer.

"My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

I wonder, did KotLT who went forth and defended the innocent receive a knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone, or perhaps they received something else.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Crona said:

This is what I meant in my OP, I had only said that Bran affected the past to make it easier to understand for people. I don't know why you kept on saying that I was talking about time travel all the time. I only said that he did once, and he's not able to do it again. Why he's not able to, I don't know. But he can't affect anything NOW.

It has to be referred to as "the past" for us mere humans (me included) because we can't fathom the way the Weirwood operates in time, and as we as normal humans move in one direction, we are forever bound by that forward direction.

It doesn't change our debate though; I think the same as you, only you give Bran too much power of control over beings "we" class as being in "the past". That power you give him is far too great a power and can control the story as he sees fit.

Fair enough, you say he only managed it once and he can't "now", which is vague and certainly seems like a half-fleshed out theory if that's the case. Only once why? I did theorize earlier myself that it is because it "fits" your theory, but I don't want to go round in circles here again.

But seriously, why then? Why can Bran COMPLETELY control Howland in a time when Bran isn't even alive in the normal human sense, and then proceed to write a whole day's history as he wants, simply because he desires to be a knight, and then just exit poor Howland's body and leave him perplexed. And then never be able to achieve the feat again for some reason.

Purpose? Is there any? What does that serve the story only to have fans scratch their heads and say, well if he did that, what else did he do in history before he had the gift taken away somehow?

See where I'm coming from? Why? Because he wants to be a knight for a day?

"NOTHING Bran does can ever change anything in the past, and any time he seeks to do so, he will simply find himself the cause of said event." We agreed on that.

This works so much better though  if you take away the idea that Bran can simply enter anybody's body and do as he pleases at the Tourney. A more subtle nudge that only just plays a part surely won't alienate so much fans, because going by what I've read on forums, I don't think many fans care for Bran to have "that" much power.

Surely GRRM cares for his fans' views.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

31 minutes ago, Crona said:

That is actually a really good quote. I still am stickler for the voice especially when its a speaking louder "booming" and not muffled. Its one of those things that will always bother me with the Lyanna KOTL theory. 

 

Until it is confirmed then I could buy it but I just can't get over the tone of voice. The larynx does not lie. Although I guess I wouldn't put it pass GRRM since he made Tyrion complete flips. Of course I do see Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, but I am really thinking how much of a douche he is to wife, so I'm thinking of his wife, Elia. 

Just playing devils advocate, even to my self. Who ever the Knight is, I think there has to be more clues than just the voice.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, we don't know the woman's name.

Why not?

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

I think Elia also said a name when she was dying, could it have been Rhaegar? 

IDK.  You've really sparked at storm of words here.  LOL  It's hard to keep up.

[AlaskanSandman]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Correct.  Brienne is over 6 feet tall and there is a huge physical difference between Brienne and Lyanna.  It's just as feasible that Howland's voice is amplified by the greathelm as it is for Lyanna's.  I don't think it proves anything. 

Yea her build seemed a good point to make too, though not all women who fight are built manly. It does help though, especially when going up against men. Even most ufc women wont fight the men in there same weight class as the muscle density difference is still a factor along with the fact guys have wider shoulders and smaller hips, giving more upper body strength than a typical woman of comparable weight. 

Not impossible for Lyanna, but not probable. 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why not?

All the text says is that he said a woman's name.  Dany assumes it's Lyanna.  But nobody corroborates it. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 minutes ago, Crona said:

Rhaegar is in his 20s and has a kid and has another one on the way. Nothing in the text suggests Rhaegar is irresponsible enough or immature enough to fall in love with a teenager during a tourney especially crowning her right in front of your wife and her family. I don't even think prophecy would be enough motivation to do that. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think there was something else going on.

Remember, try not to let how you think a fictional man in a fictional story should handle affairs involving his family, especially in a brutal world where the end of the world could come with a long winter, and literal dragons exist.

Even without the love angle, it is undisputed fact he crowned her right there and couldn't give two shits who didn't like it.

Have you ever entertained the idea that Elia was okay with it? I think she knew she'd never ever have another kid after the second.. Ever. She was in terrible health after the first.

What if she loved Rhaegar enough to believe in his prophecy and his willingness to fulfill it, even though it meant finding another mate.

Remember, this is a fictional world.

Hey, on a sidenote though; do you know Tom Jones slept with over 200 women a year during his big fame years, but stayed together and married with his wife until her death.

[Crona]

11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Fair enough, you say he only managed it once and he can't "now", which is vague and certainly seems like a half-fleshed out theory if that's the case. Only once why? I did theorize earlier myself that it is because it "fits" your theory, but I don't want to go round in circles here again.

But seriously, why then? Why can Bran COMPLETELY control Howland in a time when Bran isn't even alive in the normal human sense, and then proceed to write a whole day's history as he wants, simply because he desires to be a knight, and then just exit poor Howland's body and leave him perplexed. And then never be able to achieve the feat again for some reason.

Purpose? Is there any? What does that serve the story only to have fans scratch their heads and say, well if he did that, what else did he do in history before he had the gift taken away somehow?

See where I'm coming from? Why? Because he wants to be a knight for a day?

"NOTHING Bran does can ever change anything in the past, and any time he seeks to do so, he will simply find himself the cause of said event." We agreed on that.

This works so much better though  if you take away the idea that Bran can simply enter anybody's body and do as he pleases at the Tourney. A more subtle nudge that only just plays a part surely won't alienate so much fans, because going by what I've read on forums, I don't think many fans care for Bran to have "that" much power.

Surely GRRM cares for his fans' views.

 

Here's the thing that I've been telling this whole time, the information in OP is what I have. I don't know any other reason of why he can't do it again. We don't know if he took Howland's body without his consent maybe Howland gave his consent and that is why. I never said that he took complete control, I showed an EXAMPLE of Hodor being controlled by Bran but he still didn't have complete control over him. Everything I put in my OP is from the books and I am tired of this conversation. 

[Odej]

My doubts about this theory are as follows:

Crannogmen spend most of their lives on boats, not on horses and being a good rider is important to do well in jousting. The crannogman in Meera's story did not feel confident to join the tourney and defends his honor 'cause he was afraid of making himself fool, so he prayed to the old gods.

Bran is a boy who was crippled at age of seven. He doesn't have any jousting experience, how could he make Howland win the jousts that the knight of the laughing three won in the tourney by warg him?

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Remember, try not to let how you think a fictional man in a fictional story should handle affairs involving his family, especially in a brutal world where the end of the world could come with a long winter, and literal dragons exist.

Even without the love angle, it is undisputed fact he crowned her right there and couldn't give two shits who didn't like it.

Have you ever entertained the idea that Elia was okay with it? I think she knew she'd never ever have another kid after the second.. Ever. She was in terrible health after the first.

What if she loved Rhaegar enough to believe in his prophecy and his willingness to fulfill it, even though it meant finding another mate.

Remember, this is a fictional world.

Hey, on a sidenote though; do you know Tom Jones slept with over 200 women a year during his big fame years, but stayed together and married with his wife until her death.

 this is just bizarre. Of course I am looking at this in universe, that's why I think its so weird. 

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

All the text says is that he said a woman's name.  Dany assumes it's Lyanna.  But nobody corroborates it. 

From the app:

Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips. (Rhaegar Targaryen entry, WoI&F app) bold emphasis added.

Yeah, I hear ya, it's the app... yawn. GRRM has said the app information is the carryover information that would not fit in to the World book. The app is there for a reason, not just a hobby of someone's to throw us off the scent.

Know what else it says, Lyanna was "practiced at tilting at rings" which means she was skilled in jousting; just putting that out there.

Still looking for a GRRM quote or youtube clip of confirming Lyanna's name, for those still not convinced.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Crona said:

Here's the thing that I've been telling this whole time, the information in OP is what I have. I don't know any other reason of why he can't do it again. We don't know if he took Howland's body without his consent maybe Howland gave his consent and that is why. I never said that he took complete control, I showed an EXAMPLE of Hodor being controlled by Bran but he still didn't have complete control over him. Everything I put in my OP is from the books and I am tired of this conversation. 

Ditto, agree to disagree.