Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Odej said:

My doubts about this theory are as follows:

Crannogmen spend most of their lives on boats, not on horses and being a good rider is important to do well in jousting. The crannogman in Meera's story did not feel confident to join the tourney and defends his honor 'cause he was afraid of making himself fool, so he prayed to the old gods.

Bran is a boy who was crippled at age of seven. He doesn't have any jousting experience, how could he make Howland win the jousts that the knight of the laughing three won in the tourney by warg him?

He can't, but his Aunt who is half a horse herself and "practiced at tilting rings" could enter on Howland's behalf.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

From the app:

Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips. (Rhaegar Targaryen entry, WoI&F app) bold emphasis added.

Yeah, I hear ya, it's the app... yawn. GRRM has said the app information is the carryover information that would not fit in to the World book. The app is there for a reason, not just a hobby of someone's to throw us off the scent.

Know what else it says, Lyanna was "practiced at tilting at rings" which means she was skilled in jousting; just putting that out there.

Still looking for a GRRM quote or youtube clip of confirming Lyanna's name, for those still not convinced.

 

Correct.  It's suspect and it could be reflecting what characters in story believe.  The romance tale is quite popular with the singers.  But it sounds more like a sweet lie covering up a bitter truth to me.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Correct.  It's suspect and it could be reflecting what characters in story believe.  The romance tale is quite popular with the singers.  But it sounds more like a sweet lie covering up a bitter truth to me.

You believe he said Elia? Someone else?

[Crona]

10 minutes ago, Odej said:

My doubts about this theory are as follows:

Crannogmen spend most of their lives on boats, not on horses and being a good rider is important to do well in jousting. The crannogman in Meera's story did not feel confident to join the tourney and defends his honor 'cause he was afraid of making himself fool, so he prayed to the old gods.

Bran is a boy who was crippled at age of seven. He doesn't have any jousting experience, how could he make Howland win the jousts that the knight of the laughing three won in the tourney by warg him?

 

All good points, however Howland Reed had gone to the Isle Faces and had trained there. We don't know how long or what he did, but there is the order of the green men there. Also, some horses are really responsive to their owners like Dancer. And Bran has been trained in horse riding even at his young and learned combat.  And from my theory, the old gods (bran) had given that confidence to Howland. There some things that Bran/Hodor could do when Bran is in his body and Hodor is in his own. I understand this theory is not very logical but its heavily based the text and the symbolic meaning of Bran's and his wants:

Bran stared resentfully at the sweating boys below. "If I still had my legs, I could beat them all." He remembered the last time he'd held a sword in his hand, when the king had come to Winterfell. It was only a wooden sword, yet he'd knocked Prince Tommen down half a hundred times. "Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together."

"I think that … unlikely," Maester Luwin said. "Bran, when a man fights, his arms and legs and thoughts must be as one."

 

[Crona]

36 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Yeah, I hear ya, it's the app... yawn. GRRM has said the app information is the carryover information that would not fit in to the World book. The app is there for a reason, not just a hobby of someone's to throw us off the scent.

 

 

The world book as I recall is written by Maester Yandel. Some of the information was not correct such as the claim that Elia stabbed Rhaenys. He also adjusted the book to appease the Lannisters and his account is not first hand.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You believe he said Elia? Someone else?

I think it's likely that his first thought was of his wife and children and the danger they would be exposed to with his death.  The bitter truth is that Elia and her children were slaughtered.

[BlackLightning]

This whole thing is a headache if I am to be honest.

It's why I tend to hate time travel stories...they get soooo complicated so quickly. Even more in this case, as we're not talking science-based time travel but magic-based time travel.

But good points. There definitely was a lot more that happened at the Tourney of Harrenhal than what we are led to believe.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

The world book as I recall is written by Maester Yandel. Some of the information was not correct such as the claim that Elia stabbed Rhaenys. He also adjusted the book to appease the Lannisters and his account is not first hand.

Yes, but that is simply an entry in the App under Rhaegar, with added info, for those who were of a mind to download it and purchase anything through it. That particular piece of info is not something Yandel would ever be able to confirm or debunk is it? Had he known Rhaegar’s final words, why would he lie and say it was Lyanna if it wasn’t? Why lie about that in any event? 
Why not just tell it as it is, as the app literally does.

[Crona]

24 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This whole thing is a headache if I am to be honest.

It's why I tend to hate time travel stories...they get soooo complicated so quickly. Even more in this case, as we're not talking science-based time travel but magic-based time travel.

But good points. There definitely was a lot more that happened at the Tourney of Harrenhal than what we are led to believe.

Thank you, I don't like time traveling either but its just something that clicked to me when reading the Bran chapters again. I don't think I am correct but I do think there is something there...

[Crona]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes, but that is simply an entry in the App under Rhaegar, with added info, for those who were of a mind to download it and purchase anything through it. That particular piece of info is not something Yandel would ever be able to confirm or debunk is it? Had he known Rhaegar’s final words, why would he lie and say it was Lyanna if it wasn’t? Why lie about that in any event? 
Why not just tell it as it is, as the app literally does.

Because its written by Maester Yandel (pov) and he does not have first hand knowledge of this. You are free to believe it, for the record I believe he did say Lyanna but I am not basing this on Yandel and an app lol

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

for the record I believe he did say Lyanna

More agreement. Can only be healthy.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This whole thing is a headache if I am to be honest.

It's why I tend to hate time travel stories...they get soooo complicated so quickly. Even more in this case, as we're not talking science-based time travel but magic-based time travel.

But good points. There definitely was a lot more that happened at the Tourney of Harrenhal than what we are led to believe.

I think it’s just a case of, accept it and also accept that we may struggle to understand the logistics. 
 

Then, choose your loop/type of time meddling. Multiple timelines or universes, or one set in stone timeline where the cause of an action is always the cause, regardless of the strictures of time, where said magic is involved.

I subscribe to the latter. Bran always initiated Ned’s response at the Heart Tree twice. He was always the cause in that exact fashion. 
 

Don’t confuse ourselves with the “how”. Many films and books have used the trope and GRRM is using it now. Roll with it and enjoy.

Do you know that GRRM actually began writing with a Sci-Fi novel in mind when he wrote the first chapter of AGOT.

Food for thought.

[LynnS]

This is the text in question:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's why I tend to hate time travel stories...they get soooo complicated so quickly. Even more in this case, as we're not talking science-based time travel but magic-based time travel.

I think that's really a distinction without a difference. Time travel is scientifically impossible, so even if it's presented in a scientific context it's still basically magic, and full of logical problems.

Same goes for telepathy and telekinesis. It's magic, with a sci-fi gloss. 

But I digress.  

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I think that's really a distinction without a difference. Time travel is scientifically impossible, so even if it's presented in a scientific context it's still basically magic, and full of logical problems.

Same goes for telepathy and telekinesis. It's magic, with a sci-fi gloss. 

But I digress.  

Well, if you really sit back and think about it, sci-fi, fantasy and horror are really just one genre told with a different lens and incorporating different storytelling devices.

It's the same thing. It's all fantasy.

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think it’s just a case of, accept it and also accept that we may struggle to understand the logistics. 
 

Then, choose your loop/type of time meddling. Multiple timelines or universes, or one set in stone timeline where the cause of an action is always the cause, regardless of the strictures of time, where said magic is involved.

I subscribe to the latter. Bran always initiated Ned’s response at the Heart Tree twice. He was always the cause in that exact fashion. 
 

Don’t confuse ourselves with the “how”. Many films and books have used the trope and GRRM is using it now. Roll with it and enjoy.

Do you know that GRRM actually began writing with a Sci-Fi novel in mind when he wrote the first chapter of AGOT.

Food for thought.

Right

The problem here when we have magic-based time travel is that there is no reason why if Bran can pull off such a crazy feat that he can't or won't do it again. You have to be very careful or else you jump the shark.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Well, if you really sit back and think about it, sci-fi, fantasy and horror are really just one genre told with a different lens and incorporating different storytelling devices.

It's the same thing. It's all fantasy.

Agreed.

I will say that GRRM's usage of time travel in previous stories indicates that he at least tries to use it carefully. And we all know that he usually makes magical powers more trouble than they're worth, or at least having unforeseen consequences that go well beyond their utility as a plot device. So I'm actually not so worried about the time-traveling Bran part of the story.

[Egged]

14 hours ago, Crona said:

Yes, I do think Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was due to the KoLT actions, perhaps they did meet and Bran had told him that Lyanna would birth his prince that was promised - which he thought was Aegon. There is still a lot of analysis left to do. Regardless, if this theory is true, Bran did break Rhaegar's intentions of bringing the realm together and instead caused more issues between the families. 

 

I am really interested in knowing what honor means here, could you put it under spoilers or send a message to me? lol

Spoiler

Hodooooooooooor!

 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

From the app:

Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips. (Rhaegar Targaryen entry, WoI&F app) bold emphasis added.

Yeah, I hear ya, it's the app... yawn. GRRM has said the app information is the carryover information that would not fit in to the World book. The app is there for a reason, not just a hobby of someone's to throw us off the scent.

Know what else it says, Lyanna was "practiced at tilting at rings" which means she was skilled in jousting; just putting that out there.

Still looking for a GRRM quote or youtube clip of confirming Lyanna's name, for those still not convinced.

 

Quote

 

It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard.

 

 

 

Whether he is likely to change details noted in the app regarding Lyanna when he finally publishes the novels, I couldn't tell you, but I am doubtful.

 

Quoted from Elio Garcia. To play devils advocate.

So though Elio thinks its unlikely the info should change, GRRM does reserve the right, and the app is not fully canon. We know GRRM is leading people for now to think Lyanna is Jon's mom. Thats what the main narrative has been saying since book 1. Rhaegar took Lyanna, raped her and likely got her with baby. This though, leaves no mystery to the book and who Jon mother is. Its literally the most obvious answer, and for an author thats very meticulous. This is not meticulous. GRRM and everyone involved swore up and down that Jon was Dead too and wasn't coming back. See how that worked out. Hard to fully trust the situation and Martin on the subject. What logical person outright spoils their own story? Worst story teller ever if that is the case. Specially when your story is a mystery, and you just spoiled it. I think with some fans of the novel, this seems odd and suspect. Doesn't mean GRRM didn't spoil his own story, but its weird. 

Quote

Additional content including more detailed and exclusive guide items, the full interactive maps, and several hundred more informational entries, which extends the coverage subjects to Houses, Groups, Religions, Creatures, and Things, is unlocked via in-app purchases as "InfoPacks" corresponding to each novel, which can be paid for separately or as a bundle.

Also weird to Charge people for Info packs when we already bought the books. "Here, let me Nickle and dime you for those tid bits of info" lol info better not be wrong.

Does the app still state the Long Night was 10k years ago and the Andals invaded 6k years ago? Cause if so. I wouldn't trust the app too much

[Crona]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Quoted from Elio Garcia. To play devils advocate.

So though Elio thinks its unlikely the info should change, GRRM does reserve the right, and the app is not fully canon. We know GRRM is leading people for now to think Lyanna is Jon's mom. Thats what the main narrative has been saying since book 1. Rhaegar took Lyanna, raped her and likely got her with baby. This though, leaves no mystery to the book and who Jon mother is. Its literally the most obvious answer, and for an author thats very meticulous. This is not meticulous. GRRM and everyone involved swore up and down that Jon was Dead too and wasn't coming back. See how that worked out. Hard to fully trust the situation and Martin on the subject. What logical person outright spoils their own story? Worst story teller ever if that is the case. Specially when your story is a mystery, and you just spoiled it. I think with some fans of the novel, this seems odd and suspect. Doesn't mean GRRM didn't spoil his own story, but its weird. 

Also weird to Charge people for Info packs when we already bought the books. "Here, let me Nickle and dime you for those tid bits of info" lol info better not be wrong.

Does the app still state the Long Night was 10k years ago and the Andals invaded 6k years ago? Cause if so. I wouldn't trust the app too much

I also never seen an author put important information in an app before. Usually its just miscellaneous information but who knows lol

[AlaskanSandman]

28 minutes ago, Crona said:

I also never seen an author put important information in an app before. Usually its just miscellaneous information but who knows lol

Yea its weird. Excuse "oh to fit stuff there was no room to fit in the books"

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name, "Lyanna". . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

 

There, I fit it in. Wasn't so hard. You had to write another book and create an app to charge people to get that? Yea ok