Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Gus an ath thuras Beurla.

uair sam bith 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Crona said:

I actually do believe in RLJ but I’m still trying to figure out why and how it happened.

The why: Prophecy; need; possible guidance by a woods witches' dream/vision; mutual attraction; respect; love...?

The how: First viewing of each other at the tourney. Crowning of the she-wolf at tourney by said dragon prince. Soon after, the need for a third head and other duties sees Rhaegar leave his wife and two children; he encounters Lyanna again. They produce Jon.

Ultimately, though. Because GRRM said so. This will prove to have never changed. The million and one other plot threads though, they are a big part of why we still tune in, isn't it? There's so much more other stuff going on, but they don't need to effect the core narrative in place since 1991.

[Crona]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The why: Prophecy; need; possible guidance by a woods witches' dream/vision; mutual attraction; respect; love...?

The how: First viewing of each other at the tourney. Crowning of the she-wolf at tourney by said dragon prince. Soon after, the need for a third head and other duties sees Rhaegar leave his wife and two children; he encounters Lyanna again. They produce Jon.

Ultimately, though. Because GRRM said so. This will prove to have never changed. The million and one other plot threads though, they are a big part of why we still tune in, isn't it? There's so much more other stuff going on, but they don't need to effect the core narrative in place since 1991.

Prophecy: I assume you mean the prince that was promised? Because he was referring to Aegon..not the son he fathered with Lyanna

Need: I assume you mean the quote “there must be one more” which is a vague vision from Dany that could be interpreted in many ways. 

woods witch: no real proof Rhaegar met or what she told him

dreams and visions: ??

mutual attraction: could be but from the text it doesn’t appear that Rhaegar would leave his wife due to attraction to another woman 

respect: where was the respect in crowning her in front his wife? Why would anyone think Rhaegar  would have respect for someone if he did that to his wife 

love: I need to know when that happened

the how: again I do not agree Lyanna is KOLT but even if she was, that is not motivation enough to crown her.

You know what the real proof of RLJ? Ned’s thoughts. He doesn’t list Jon amongst his children. It’s simple 

 

[Odej]

16 minutes ago, Crona said:

Prophecy: I assume you mean the prince that was promised? Because he was referring to Aegon..not the son he fathered with Lyanna

Need: I assume you mean the quote “there must be one more” which is a vague vision from Dany that could be interpreted in many ways. 

woods witch: no real proof Rhaegar met or what she told him

dreams and visions: ??

mutual attraction: could be but from the text it doesn’t appear that Rhaegar would leave his wife due to attraction to another woman 

respect: where was the respect in crowning her in front his wife? Why would any would think Rhaegar  would have respect for someone if he did that to his wife 

love: I need to know when that happened

the how: again I do not agree Lyanna is KOLT but even if she was, that is not motivation enough to crown her.

You know what the real proof of RLJ? Ned’s thoughts. He doesn’t list Jon amongst his children. It’s simple 

 

Honestly, I think would be very interesting if Martin didn't clear up all the questions about RLJ. He confirm the theory, but leave the motivations and circumstances still not entirely clear. Which isn't difficult since most of the involved are dead. Howland Reed was at Tourney of Harrenhal and at Tower of Joy, but he wasn't in Rhaegar's mind.

[Crona]

6 minutes ago, Odej said:

Honestly, I think would be very interesting if Martin didn't clear up all the questions about RLJ. He confirm the theory, but leave the motivations and circumstances still not entirely clear. Which isn't difficult since most of the involved are dead. Howland Reed was at Tourney of Harrenhal and at Tower of Joy, but he wasn't in Rhaegar's mind.

I don’t think he will give us all the information. Like you said, I think he will just give maybe Harrenhal  and TOJ (what happened to Lyanna and Jon). Most likely just TOJ. We would be able to piece things together.

[LynnS]

56 minutes ago, Crona said:

I actually do believe in RLJ but I’m still trying to figure out why and how it happened. But it just seems like if anything goes against their headcannon then they become super defensive. It just not productive at all and puts RLJ theory in poor taste. 

It provides answers to questions that people want answered.  But it's also a very old theory that doesn't account for new information.  I don't know who Jon's dad is at this point or what happened to Lyanna after Rhaegar fell upon her.  

I do find the time and causality puzzle intriguing and I don't think Martin is using it in a simplistic form caricaturized as a time lord/tardis equivalence.

The question for me is what does Martin mean and where does he use it, in the story so far.

[Macgregor of the North]

28 minutes ago, Crona said:

Prophecy: I assume you mean the prince that was promised? Because he was referring to Aegon..not the son he fathered with Lyanna

Yup, the very same prophecy as Azor Ahai. It drove his life's research and goal. He was certain at one time it was Aegon, for sure. He could've been guided by other information that Lyanna (or a wolf-maid/she-wolf) played a part too; maybe he had fancied a third head as per his ancestor, or maybe he had heard that it was crucial to the said prophecy at this stage. Possible? . At the time of the tourney, I believe he knows that he and Elia won't have more children after the second, due to how unwell she was after the first. Is it possible Rhaegar had info on the prophecy that he thought needed Lyanna's involvement? Maybe? 

34 minutes ago, Crona said:

Need: I assume you mean the quote “there must be one more” which is a vague vision from Dany that could be interpreted in many ways. 

Yup. I speculate that this vision is literal and Rhaegar and Elia actually had this conversation on Dragonstone before he left. He may even simply be relaying something he always knew; for example, Rhaegar may have even known this need from before the tourney. He was heavily in contact with Maester Aemon and they talked of many things including the prophecy.

36 minutes ago, Crona said:

woods witch: no real proof Rhaegar met or what she told him

I know, but just imagine those visits to Summerhall where he meets the Ghost of High Heart and writes Jenny's song for her to help with her grief. And in turn, she supplies him with --

37 minutes ago, Crona said:

dreams and visions: ??

I mean, it's almost enough to blow your head off, the imagery there isn't it. Admit it.

38 minutes ago, Crona said:

mutual attraction: could be but from the text it doesn’t appear that Rhaegar would leave his wife due to attraction to another woman 

Not enough on its own, no. But throw it in the mix and I'm sure it's in there as an ingredient. Lyanna was noted to be beautiful.

39 minutes ago, Crona said:

respect: where was the respect in crowning her in front his wife? Why would any would think Rhaegar  would have respect for someone if he did that to his wife 

This is where we certainly disagree. I believe this respect is for her performance in the tourney as the KotLT and her reasons; for the knights to chastise the bully squires. I'd respect the hell outta someone for pulling that off. Speculation, of course.

41 minutes ago, Crona said:

love: I need to know when that happened

Oh, me too...

 

41 minutes ago, Crona said:

the how: again I do not agree Lyanna is KOLT but even if she was, that is not motivation enough to crown her.

We can't agree on everything, but we're making sound progress with discussions. It is maybe not solely enough to crown her, but I believe it could play a decent-sized part in the overall motivation to do so; especially if he has been given guidance by the GoHH through visions of a she-wolf or laughing weirwood tree symbolism, which would cement Lyanna as important in his mind. Speculation of course.

 

45 minutes ago, Crona said:

You know what the real proof of RLJ? Ned’s thoughts. He doesn’t list Jon amongst his children. It’s simple 

I think Ned's thoughts only serve to show that Jon is half Stark, and he is not Ned's. We need it spelled out definitively, and Bran may be the only one who will do it in-story. GRRM is the only one who can do it in our world. 

[Macgregor of the North]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know who Jon's dad is at this point

Can I ask you to confirm. You believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, but not that Rhaegar is his father.

No animosity or difficulty intended. We know each other from old discussions so I assume you understand my blunt, straight to the point attitude is meant positively.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Can I ask you to confirm. You believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, but not that Rhaegar is his father.

No animosity or difficulty intended. We know each other from old discussions so I assume you understand my blunt, straight to the point attitude is meant positively.

I just don't know.  Yes, I think Lyanna is his mother but I don't know if Rhaegar is Jon's father.  If Rhaeger is his father; then I expect that Jon will manifest the icy side of his nature, as the rider of the ice dragon, rather than one of Dany's dragon riders.

No offense taken.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, LynnS said:

I just don't know.  Yes, I think Lyanna is his mother but I don't know if Rhaegar is Jon's father.  If Rhaeger is his father; then I expect that Jon will manifest the icy side of his nature, as the rider of the ice dragon, rather than one of Dany's dragon riders.

No offense taken.

Do you have any front-runners as potential father? I like the Ice Dragon stuff. Dark indeed.

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

or what happened to Lyanna after Rhaegar fell upon her. 

You believe Rhaegar and Lyanna encountered each other in the Riverlands, but you're unsure if the given narrative after that is true?

What do you think happened after that for another man to impregnate her?

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Do you have any front-runners as potential father? I like the Ice Dragon stuff. Dark indeed.

I have some potentials (including) Rhaegar, but I'm reluctant to discuss it.

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You believe Rhaegar and Lyanna encountered each other in the Riverlands, but you're unsure if the given narrative after that is true?

Yes, I don't dispute that Rhaegar fell upon her.  But I think it was opportunistic and politically motivated and I'm not sure that he managed to hold on to her.  I think it's possible she escaped and went into hiding.

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What do you think happened after that for another man to impregnate her?

It's possible she was already pregnant.

[Crona]

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

 

I think Ned's thoughts only serve to show that Jon is half Stark, and he is not Ned's. We need it spelled out definitively, and Bran may be the only one who will do it in-story. GRRM is the only one who can do it in our world. 

Nah, in the first book, you can tell he’s not Ned’s. Then you have Lyanna’s “promise me,” Ned’s TOJ dream and Rhaegar was the last one seen with her. Also, Ned not telling his wife who the real mother, it’s because of Robert’s hate of the Targs. I think personally, it’s pretty easy to tell who the father is.

I don’t believe we are going to get any insight into Rhaegar’s dreams or thoughts nor his adventures with a certain woods witch. We are going to get Harrenhal and the TOJ probably from either Howland or Bran which will tell us why Rhaegar had wanted a child with Lyanna. 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Crona said:

I don’t believe we are going to get any insight into Rhaegar’s dreams or thoughts nor his adventures with a certain woods witch. We are going to get Harrenhal and the TOJ probably from either Howland or Bran which will tell us why Rhaegar had wanted a child with Lyanna. 

Well I'm really not going to get into RLJ.  As you and I have discussed in the past; the Tree Knight story is a prerequisite to the romance narrative.   I think we are being told something far more interesting about Bran and I don't think RLJ is dependant on Lyanna being the Tree Knight.  

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have some potentials (including) Rhaegar, but I'm reluctant to discuss it.

Can't be helped, I suppose.

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But I think it was opportunistic and politically motivated

Sticking with that politically-motivated card 'til the end eh. Romance and prophecy on the back-burner. Fair enough.

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's possible she was already pregnant.

Now you're opening up. Very juicy statement.

I did a Tourney-War timeline exercise ages ago with the magnificent poster Rhaenys_Targaryen, although I'm sure she is on hiatus from the general board for the time being. We had Jon born, Sept - Oct 283AC. Unless something's drastically changed since my own hiatus, we believed that fairly accurate at the time. We researched every angle extensively to do this; it was quite a task. Took 9 pages on my thread I believe.

(note, we use our own month names for clarity and go by our own calendar of 12 moon turns, naturally)

I suppose (if accurate) that puts the date of Jon being conceived around the end of 282 AC.

So Rhaegar encounters Lyanna in 282 AC; the exact point could be hazy of course. He set out with companions at the turn of the year it's said. He ends up in the Riverlands, ultimately...

 A lot happens in 282 obviously, but I'm curious as to when in 282 you think is Lyanna impregnated?

You won't discuss who by due to reluctance, but I'm curious of the when?

 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I suppose (if accurate) that puts the date of Jon being conceived around the end of 282 AC.

The timeline only works for the assumptions made about the RLJ narrative.  I think Ned has reason to say that Jon is younger  because he is presenting himself as Jon's father.  If Jon were older, this would create problems for any true-born children and certainly big problems with Catelyn.

[Macgregor of the North]

19 minutes ago, Crona said:

Nah, in the first book, you can tell he’s not Ned’s.

I don't mean we need it spelled out definitively he isn't Ned's; that's as obvious as the nose on my face. I meant RL=J. Some need it spelled out definitively, so incidentally, we all do.

22 minutes ago, Crona said:

I don’t believe we are going to get any insight into Rhaegar’s dreams or thoughts nor his adventures with a certain woods witch.

It's fairly spelled out for us in the text any way that the GoHH was the woods witch from the Targaryen history. Rhaegar went to Summerhall with his harp, alone, and came back with songs. It's not a big leap to believe the GoHH lingered there with her grief at Jenny and the tragedy itself. There, her and Rhaegar meet... blah, blah, blah... you get it. We still may get some words from the GoHH herself; I was always fond of reading about her on page.

25 minutes ago, Crona said:

We are going to get Harrenhal and the TOJ probably from either Howland or Bran which will tell us why Rhaegar had wanted a child with Lyanna. 

Yes, we are indeed. This is where GRRM will have to produce some of the best writing he has ever pulled off, since the cat has been out of the bag for over 20 years on RL=J and he needs to bring some fresh awesomeness to it that the adaptation didn't show.

And also, sadly... because some people just point blank don't believe it because so much time has passed that they think it just can't be true. Not anyone in particular btw, but there are a good few out there I believe. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

The timeline only works for the assumptions made about the RLJ narrative.  I think Ned has reason to say that Jon is younger  because he is presenting himself as Jon's father.  If Jon were older, this would create problems for any true-born children and certainly big problems with Catelyn.

We took all that into account on the exercise, but hey-ho.

A closed book on the topic it seems. You keep you secrets close to your heart LynnS. 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We took all that into account on the exercise, but hey-ho.

A closed book on the topic it seems. You keep you secrets close to your heart LynnS. 

LOL!  I am more than willing to weigh in on OP.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  I am more than willing to weigh in on OP.

I know, I'm just teasing. I'm also aware we have strayed a few times.

Apologies @Crona

[Crona]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well I'm really not going to get into RLJ.  As you and I have discussed in the past; the Tree Knight story is a prerequisite to the romance narrative.   I think we are being told something far more interesting about Bran and I don't think RLJ is dependant on Lyanna being the Tree Knight.  

I agree RLJ is not dependent on KOLT for me and I find Bran’s possible involvement more intriguing 

 

24 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I don't mean we need it spelled out definitively he isn't Ned's; that's as obvious as the nose on my face. I meant RL=J. Some need it spelled out definitively, so incidentally, we all do.

 

I am sure by TOJ it would be spelled out

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

It's fairly spelled out for us in the text any way that the GoHH was the woods witch from the Targaryen history. Rhaegar went to Summerhall with his harp, alone, and came back with songs. It's not a big leap to believe the GoHH lingered there with her grief at Jenny and the tragedy itself. There, her and Rhaegar meet... blah, blah, blah... you get it. We still may get some words from the GoHH herself; I was always fond of reading about her on page

She is the one that told of the prophecy that resulted in Aerys and Rhaella’s marriage and was present at Summerhall.  But frankly I don’t see her coming back to the story.  I guess Rhaegar could have met her or not. We don’t know what she would say, so I don’t speculate on it. 

 

31 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Yes, we are indeed. This is where GRRM will have to produce some of the best writing he has ever pulled off, since the cat has been out of the bag for over 20 years on RL=J and he needs to bring some fresh awesomeness to it that the adaptation didn't show.

 

We can always discuss the text as I’m sure there is something about TOJ

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.